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Author Topic: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)  (Read 148514 times)

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Offline Hood

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Re: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)
« Reply #220 on: January 18, 2013, 05:49:28 PM »
Replaced all of the pipes on the changer that hadnt been already replaced and got the leaks down quite a bit with that. When I first got it the compressor kicked in every 5 or 6 minutes but after replacing the pipes and the air filter/regulator/oiler it was down to every 30 mins which was not too bad. It seemed to leak a bit more on  tools 4, 5 and 12 so I managed to source a couple of valves on US eBay and got them sent to Brian as Graham was across at Christmas and had kindly said he would bring them back to the UK with him. I fitted the new valves to tools 4 and 5 positions and it was just the same :( So I knew it had to be inside the mounting block that all the valves and pipes fit to.
 I had some spare time today so decided to have a closer look at what would be involved in removing the whole unit and saw that actually it wasnt as bad as I had first thought. Most of the pipes came out via two plates either side and they were held on with only two screws, there were another 6 pipes that were either push fit or nut fittings and then the only other thing to do was unscrew the terminal housings either side and  remove the main wiring plug. Only two cap screws then held the whole block in place.
 I got it removed, removed the valves and then saw the screws that held the circuit boards in place so I got the circuit boards out and thats when I noticed the whole thing was made up in layers and glued together so no real way to try and fix the remaining leaks without risking damaging it :(
 The time was not totally wasted however as I did  find the problem on the circuit board that had stopped tool 9 solenoid working, it was a bad diode so I hunted around and managed to find one in an old battery charger. Put it all back together and it works fine now so I can do away with the bypass wiring I did earlier on.
 Still has the leak obviously but at least I know if it gets worse I can try and break things apart and if it crumbles I can make one up out of delrin or aluminium. I will likely try and make it bolt together and have '0' ring seals instead of glueing it. Hope it doesnt come to that though as I can put up with the compressor every 30mins ;D
Below are a few pics, first is the unit in places, next is it off then next is with valves removed which allowed me to see the screws for the circuit boards. Last pic shows the boards and also the layered construction.

Hood

Offline budman68

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Re: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)
« Reply #221 on: January 19, 2013, 07:05:29 AM »
While I know I'm never much help around here, (especially for the brainiac that you are  ;) ) I may have a few lame ideas to try even though I have no clue how this works.  ;D

Now I realize these glued layers may run deep into the center of this conglomeration, have you tried to apply air to the unit and maybe run a candle around it to see if it's leaking on the outer edges? At least it might give you a clue to where it/they are?

Or possibly a thin soapy water solution rubbed across the surfaces would bubble and reveal a leak?

EDIT: if you do find a leak, possibly a good quality "melting" type glue would help/hold?

Dave
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 07:07:27 AM by budman68 »
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Offline Hood

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Re: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)
« Reply #222 on: January 19, 2013, 07:54:59 AM »
Dave,
I think it will be glued all over the surface of each layer, reason being there will be lots of channels cut into each layer to route the air from the valves to where it ends up (pipes out, exhausts) so it will have to seal internally.
The leaks are exiting via the exhaust silencers so that is why I was thinking it was leaky valves, ie the air bypassing the seals in the valves but replacing the valves proved that not to be the case :(  The leaks could really be anywhere inside the block but most likely they will be nearer the valves as that will be where the air channels are closest.
 Applying a hot air gun may be the way to separate the layers, maybe even just applying hot air for a while and clamping the whole block between some alu or steel plates would be enough to soften the glue and reseal but for now I will let it be as its not too bad now I have replaced all the old pipes.

Hood

Offline budman68

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Re: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)
« Reply #223 on: January 19, 2013, 08:00:16 AM »
Ah, I see, good to know you're right on top of it  ;)

Dave
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Offline Hood

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Re: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)
« Reply #224 on: January 19, 2013, 08:03:46 AM »
If I were on top of it I reckon it would be crushed ;D
Appreciate the input though :)
Hood
Re: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)
« Reply #225 on: January 28, 2013, 10:25:25 PM »
@Hood,

Great to see your postings here.  I have purchased the bones of a Chiron FZ12w that looks to be about the same vintage as yours.  I have replaced just about every single airpline to eliminate leaks. 

In regards to the leaky solenoid valves I ended up cutting my own aluminum parts (I have a full CNC shop) to replace the awful Festoo plastic pieces that were cracking.  I didn't like the idea of spending the $100usd per solenoid to replace half of them.  I can send you the 3D file if you like. 

I look forward to reading your exploits with this machine.  i will be retrofitting as well since I can't make heads or tales with a nearly 20 year old Siemens controller.  My plan is to retrofit the control using the existing electronics and Simodrive components running in Mach.  For the toolchange I am leaning toward an industrial microprocessor since the tool change process is really a mechanical logic circuit and won't require complex macros.  Either way I look forward to hacing my FZ12w working again.  It has the indexing table with dual 4th axis so It's quite the handy production machine. 

Regards and good luck. 

Offline cnc-it

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Re: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)
« Reply #226 on: January 29, 2013, 02:52:28 AM »
Keep the Siemens Warren its a dam good industrial control,  it has  closed loop and has
 back lash comp which mach  doesn't have so why swap!
John.
Re: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)
« Reply #227 on: January 29, 2013, 03:23:55 AM »
Mach do have back lash comp!
I am not certain all external motion control HW do support it, but most do and so do paraller port.
Closed loop do not bother me, as servos I use closes loop in the drive. If folowing error limit is exceeded then machine will estop. Old commercial controls work similar way, they do not have ability to slow feed down if drive/motor can not keep up.
Not the mention siemens spare parts prices ... ;)

-M

Offline Hood

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Re: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)
« Reply #228 on: January 29, 2013, 03:34:16 AM »
warrenb,
 would appreciate the 3d files, not sure if it would be the same setup as mine but definitely worth a look.
Will pm my email address.
They are definitely meant for high volume production work, mine will never be use for that as I dont like or ever want to do anything in that line, I much prefer doing one offs.
Hood
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 03:38:01 AM by Hood »
Re: Chiron FZ12 on its way sometime soon(ish)
« Reply #229 on: January 29, 2013, 04:19:31 PM »
 
Keep the Siemens Warren its a dam good industrial control,  it has  closed loop and has
 back lash comp which mach  doesn't have so why swap!
John.

I'd love to keep the Siemens controller since the machine is set up for it already.  The problem is finding anyone that knows a 20 year old controller on this side of the 'pond.'  The battery died a while back and loading the parameters worked but since then the machine has never returned to origin.  Chiron USA is pretty useless for support and Chiron DE doesn't have anyone that even knows how to support it.