Machsupport Forum
General CNC Chat => Show"N"Tell ( Your Machines) => Topic started by: Hood on September 23, 2012, 02:47:11 PM
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I have just been through to see a Chiron FZ12 that I was thinking of buying. It is a fairly large footprint machine but travels are not huge, in fact its not much bigger than the Bridgeport Boss's travels. It however is a much sturdier machine weighing in somewhere around 3 or 4 tonnes.
The basket toolchanger is going to be great and another nice thing is the table does not move at all as it is a travelling column mill. This means it is very easy to load/unload as the table is always at the front just behind the doors, or rather where the doors fit as they are not n it at the moment.
It is linear rail on all axis and it moves very freely and smooth and with very little effort. The motors that are on it (I am not taking them) are Siemens 1FT5064-OAG which are 4000rpm and 3.8Nm torque continuous which gave a rapid of 20m/min. I have some motors I recently fitted to my Bridgeport which I may use, they are a bit lower on torque (3.05Nm) but they are 5000rpm so I can likely gear them 2.5:1 instead of the 2:1 now and that would increase the torque to be almost identical.
I may however decide to put some Allen Bradley F-4030 motors on instead, in fact I will have to put one of these on the Z as it needs a brake and the F-4030 is the only one I have with a brake. The reason I may choose the 4030 motors is I have some Osai drives here that I would like to use but they can only use certain motors and the wee MPL motors are not ones I can use.
I plan to use a CSMIO/IP controller on this and I am thinking I may go for the analogue one as no matter which drives I end up using they are all capable of analogue input, if I decided to go with the Step/Dir CSMIO then I would be limited to the more modern drives.
Couple of pics, looks a bit scrappy but a clean up and paint and I am sure it will look great, the basket toolchanger has a cover and also all the tinwork for the side is there.
So all I need to do now is get rid of the Bridgeport and one of my manual lathes so that I can reorganise my workshop and fit this in :)
Hood
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Hood,
Doesn't really look so good, but I am sure it's going to be a great machine after your magic touch ;)
May I ask why you decided not to use the original motors? My guess is they have resolver feedback? Then why not use the original drives? Or their condition isn't good? Or you afraid of future failures with them?
Dan
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Mechanically it is sound so thats all that worries me, pretty is no use if its knackered ;)
Original motors had encoders but halls were 12v I think so they would have needed converting. Also the motors can be kept as spares by the current owner for other machines so if I wanted them the cost would be more. The original drives have boards missing as they were removed to keep other machines running, repair costs of each of the boards are in the region of £900 to £1500 per board I believe and there are quite a few in the machine, so even if they were still on the machine and I got them thrown in I dont think I would want to use them as I can get other drives much cheaper than the Siemens cost to repair.
Hood
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I see. I have a 1990 Cincinnati Falcon lathe awaiting retrofit. Mechanically and cosmetically it's almost new despite its age. Problem with it is that the motors have resolvers, but keeping the original Kollmorgen drives is something I want to avoid as I heard they tend to fail. On the other hand getting rid of the motor is a shame as they are in an excellent condition. :-\
Dan
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Are they AC or DC servos?
My Computurn was like new, reckoned about 50 hrs total on a mid 80's machine. Sadly at the time there was nothing for Mach that could handle Analogue amplifiers, well there was the pixie but it was a hit or miss whether they would work and also the guy that made them wasnt making them very often so were hard to get. As said it was like new and the motors didnt even have any carbon dust inside, they were gleaming. I tried the Teknix drives but they just blew up as these motors were serious beasts, in fact I had forgotten how huge they were but saw them again on Sunday, peak current was something like 220Amps ;D
Hood
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They are AC.
Serious beasts indeed at 220Amps... Sounds more like a TIG welding machine spec than a servo's :o Continuous current was probably around 70Amps and hence the power in access of 6kW... WOW! Probably were high RPM and low torque.
Dan
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they were gleaming
Send me a picture..................... haven't seen that in ages. ;D
Brett
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They are AC.
Serious beasts indeed at 220Amps... Sounds more like a TIG welding machine spec than a servo's :o Continuous current was probably around 70Amps and hence the power in access of 6kW... WOW! Probably were high RPM and low torque.
Dan
Cont current only worked out about 32Amps and Peak actually was 293A, either that or my calcs are wrong.
Torque constant was 0.638Nm/Amp and the Cont torque was 20.7Nm and peak torque was 187Nm
RPM was 2000 and max volts were 134VDC
Hood
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they were gleaming
Send me a picture..................... haven't seen that in ages. ;D
Brett
Dont worry neither have I ;D
Hood
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SCARY numbers! :o
Dan
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Yes they wre huge motors, the lathe was built to remove serious amounts of metal in a pass ;D
Hood
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Hood,
On the previous subject of the resolvers on the motors, what is your opinion on using one of these:
http://www.vegacnc.com/html/vega2795502.htm
It's not cheap, but cheaper than replacing the motors I reckon. There are other vendors too offering such converters cheaper, but some have lower line count or miss the hall signals. This one has 8192 ppr, but from what you've shown, I am afraid that even this may not be sufficient to get good performance.
Dan
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Would it not be as cheap to get a suitable encoder with commutation?
I think I was quoted about $300 from Renco for an encoder, they however wanted about the same for post to the UK ::)
Hood
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I think you're right. Just wasn't willing to mess with the motors. But looks like it would be much cheaper and eliminate another electronic board in the chain, reducing chances to further troubles.
I too often find international postage prices being irrational. Sellers often work with a single freight company and aren't willing to check other options even when it's obvious that the price they are being quoted is way exaggerated.
However, I googled for commutation encoders and came up with a much cheaper one from US Digital with technical specs same as the Renco:
http://usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/rotary/kit/EC35
And it's priced almost half the Renco, at $161.
Dan
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The encoder I got priced was a through shaft but with bearings so likely a lot more expensive than that type you linked to. Renco do that type as well as it is what they put on the MPL motors that have Incremental Encoders so may be worth a quote from them.
I have also found US Digital are rip offs for shipping to the UK, last time I got something from them I got someone in the USA to order it and then forward it to me, worked out a lot cheaper..
I looked again at the email from Renco and the shipping wasnt as expensive as I had said, it was just $150 for up to 10 encoders ;D
It did say however that they would use your shipper if you supplied your account details.
Hood
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Just looked again at the renco ones, small bore only unfortunately, maybe they have different models that have bigger bore, will have to look.
Hood
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Strange thing happened this week. I was looking at a potential mill purchase, and the seller showed me a chiron he'd sold, and said he was just waiting for some boneidol idiot to collect it ;D
BTW, US digital have changed their international shipping to flat rates via UPS. You can see them at http://usdigital.com/company/ordering/shipping. Cost to UK varies from $46.68 to $61.51 depending on service, which is a lot cheaper than the last time I looked.
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Sadly it seems like I got the FFFB's mill sold for him to someone who had asked about my BP and now the deal on mine has fallen through so I am left with mine ;D
Good to know about the US Digital postage :)
Hood
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Strange thing happened this week. I was looking at a potential mill purchase, and the seller showed me a chiron he'd sold, and said he was just waiting for some boneidol idiot to collect it ;D
Bad day when one can`t slag a SAFFCB without someone blabbing it all over the forum.
Also interesting how a done deal on a mill has now changed to "potential".Have the Welsh moved up to East Lothian?
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Looks like the FFFB is really a GOFFFB :)
Hood
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Looks like the FFFB is really a GOFFFB :)
Hood
Less of the "grumpy",baldy. :D
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Bad day when one can`t slag a SAFFCB without someone blabbing it all over the forum.
Also interesting how a done deal on a mill has now changed to "potential".Have the Welsh moved up to East Lothian?
I'm going to keep quiet in future, as I'm now trying to figure out the FFF bit...
It is done, I'm just (trying to) keeping a low profile until I have it in my possesion!
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Ha ha well I will give you a clue, the 1st F I cant say on a forum that could be read by minors but the second one refers to the waist size and the last is because he is a fly one although he always tries to pretend he comes from South of the Forth ;D
Hood
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I managed to figure out two of the F's, but the third one was eluding me!
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;D
Brett
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FFFB = Fine,Fit,Fife Boy.
I cannot get it through SAFFCB`s thick head that I come from West Lothian.I suppose for a Dundonian he has bother grasping things that require a bit intelligence,he does manage ok on here with his cut and paste answers :D but anything more is a bit taxing for him.
SAFFCB = Short And Fat From Carnoustie Blether.
Anybody want to buy a Chiron? :D
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Bad day when one can`t slag a SAFFCB without someone blabbing it all over the forum.
Also interesting how a done deal on a mill has now changed to "potential".Have the Welsh moved up to East Lothian?
I'm going to keep quiet in future, as I'm now trying to figure out the FFF bit...
It is done, I'm just (trying to) keeping a low profile until I have it in my possesion!
Ok,you`re forgiven.Us guys south of the Forth need to stick together and be alert to the dangers from the lower life levels from north of The Tay.
TBH he probably couldn`t get down here in a day as it would mean he would have to get out of bed before lunchtime and that doesn`t happen very often and then off course one can`t take very large steps when your legs are as short as his.
Come to think about it the circus might have been a better occupation for him. :D
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Yes you can really trust a guy who says he is not a fifer but then also says
FFFB = Fine,Fit,Fife Boy.
As mc can confirm the first two F's and the last B is a total lie, especially the B unless he is thinking back 70 years. The third F though is true, so just a typical fly one, 3 out of four words are lies :)
Then he says I am a Dundonian and then goes on to say SAFFCB = Short And Fat From Carnoustie Blether.
So again as you can see there is one truth but sadly this time its only 1 in 6 that is true.
Anybody want to buy a Chiron?
Tried Walter Stewart and Sons?
Hood
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Come to think about it the circus might have been a better occupation for him.
He is here and we call him Ringmaster! ;D
Brett
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Come to think about it the circus might have been a better occupation for him.
He is here and we call him Ringmaster! ;D
Brett
I was thinking more Clown ! :D
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I was thinking more Clown ! :D
Afraid I could never come up to the high standards set by Mark Coco McGrath :)
Hood
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Afraid I could never come up to the high standards set by Mark Coco McGrath :)
Hood
[/quote]
You`re being very pleasant today,Tubbs.
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Well got the Chiron delivered yesterday and unfortunately the column had come loose in transit. When I looked at it today It looked bad, the Y axis front trucks were half off the rail, the ballscrew was half out the nut and the guards were bent a bit. The Z was also way down and the guards a bit bent but thankfully they had stayed in position enough to stop it coming right down so ballscrew was still in the nut and trucks still on the rail. Managed to get the Y back onto the rail properly and luckily none of the balls had come out of the trucks. The Ballscrew on the Y was a bit of a pain to get out but eventually I managed it. I have reloaded all the balls I could find but it seems to be 4 short so I will have to try and get some more.
I hope to get the Chiron lifted in on Monday, it arrived too late to get it done yesterday but thankfully one of the guys in the boatyard came in to lift it off with the crane so it was just put outside the workshop door. I think I am going to have about 10mm clearance through the door, would have been a real pain if not as it would mean I would have probably had to take the Z axis rails off.
Hood
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Bad news about the transport mishap, but at least we can now make jokes about your balls getting lost ;D
I take it you've managed to get rid of the bridgeport?
I'm hoping to arrange collection of my new toy this week, but still need to sort a few issues out so it can go straight into workshop once I get it here.
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Well I didnt realise I had so many balls, I lost some more today :( The last day I had to remove the wipers from the trucks so I could slide the column back as they were bent and wouldnt fit over the rails profile. Well I hadnt straightened them up as I thought I would just wait until it was inside and I could get the cover off of it and get free space yo work. Bad move, seems the screws that hold the wipers on also hold the plastic ends of the trucks on. I had pushed the column back and the front popped off one and all the balls came out. Good thing is I now know how they are loaded and I think I should manage to reload without having to remove anything, fingers crossed ;D
Yes got the BP sold to a guy from the Borders, still not got the lathe sold yet. I did have a guy that wanted to buy it but he told me about his plans to use a VFD and I said it wouldnt work unless he bypassed the 2 speed controls etc. He checked up and found it was right enough and as a rotary phase converter was too expensive he decided not to buy it. Could have kept my mouth shut but didnt like the idea of knowing he would blow up a £450 VFD and I ihadnt warned him ;D
Hood
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Could have kept my mouth shut but didnt like the idea of knowing he would blow up a £450 VFD and I ihadnt warned him ;D
Hood
You're an angel ..... you'd never make it as a politician. :)
Russ
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Could have kept my mouth shut but didnt like the idea of knowing he would blow up a £450 VFD and I ihadnt warned him ;D
Hood
You're an angel ..... you'd never make it as a politician. :)
Russ
Nope, Hood is much better than even the best politician I can think of............................. by a long shot! ;D
Brett
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Wouldnt want to be a politician but neither would I like to be an angel ;)
Hood
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OK, maybe "angel" was pushing it a bit. ::)
But you are far too kind, generous and caring to be considered a candidate for political office. :)
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Ha ha ok, I will believe you. Then again 99% of a countries population are that way when compared to politicians ;D
Well have got it in, wasnt too bad, got enough in hanging from the crane to get skates under thae back then managed to get in with a forklift at the front, dropped it onto a pipe (only had 2 skates) and managed to winch and bar it into place.
Some pics below.
Hood
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I am going to have to move the light fitting as with that away I think I will only have about 6mm clearance.
Hood
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That's a dandy size control cabinet, should ave ample room for all of the goodies.
Best suited for open area around the machine. Space there is at a premium though, right ?
This will be an interesting project.
Thanks Hood,
Russ
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Not much space is right ;D
Good thing about that machine is the table stays still an the column moves front to back, left to right so no need to allow space at either side for table movement :0
Now I suppose I better start trying to tidy the workshop, not one of my favourite pastimes I am afraid ;D
Hood
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Heres a pic inside the cabinet, loads of room to fit my stuff as you say :)
Also there is the space below where I took a huge transformer out of, I dont nee the transformer as the drives I have will come right off the mains and I will just have 24v PSU rather than having to take that off the main transformer as it was originally done.
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....... the table stays still an the column moves front to back, left to right
Hood
I didn't realize this.
Might have overlooked it if posted earlier, or missed it in the video.
Sort of like a gantry type bed mill I suppose, never saw one like this.
Seems it would be a less rigid set-up then a regular bed type.
Plenty of mass ?
Russ
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Looks like it just fits there. Are you going to rotate it or leave it that way, facing the gate, so you have access to the cabinet?
I too didn't realise the table didn't move at all. You posted it earlier, but I thought the column was only moving in the Y and the table was doing the X. It is interesting to have a closer look at the mechanism and especially the guards.
Dan
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Russ, I kind of mentioned it without actually mentioning it ;D
It is all linear rails, they are quite nice ones, not sure the make but 4 ball tracks per truck. The machine itself weighs in at about 3Tonne (6600lbs approx) might be a bit lighter now as I reckon the bleeding transformer must weigh 1/2 tonne, either that or I am getting old as I could only lift ne end at a time onto a small pallet ;D
Dan I am just leaving it that way, had originally intended having the cabinet at the door end but the way the base is it would have meant I couldnt get enough in to get skates on before the chains from the crane were hitting the building. It actually turns out there may be advantages to the way it is as it means anything heavy that is going on it just needs to come in the workshop door and right onto the table :)
I can get into the cabinet fine, as you see in the last pic posted I have left enough room between it and the lathe to get the doors swung open :0
Hood
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Heres a pic from the side showing the X axis covers.
Hood
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Yep, fits like a "glove"! ;D
Congrats, Hood, I'm sure you'll have endless hours of fun playing with this one......or at least until you get bored or sick of it and want something different ;)
Dave
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Ha ha this will take me a while, if I worked on it steady then maybe 3 or 4 weeks but with having to make money to pay the bills I reckon it will be getting on for a year.
One last pic for now, heres the X axis cover slid back to show the rails and ballscrew.
Hood
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Ah .. YES !
That is quite substantial !
A much larger footprint on the linear elements than I had imagined.
Sort of surprising that the X screw is only supported on one end.
Am I seeing that right ?
Is the Y similar ?
Z would be understandable.
Russ
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Yes the screw is only supported at the end on all axis, the X has the biggest travel at 550mm so in reality there is not a lot sticking out and they are at least 32mm diameter so fairly sturdy.
Original rapids were 20m/min and I am going to keep them at that.
Hood
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Stacking them deep and selling them cheap................. that is an understatement for you Hood. I'm glad you got my quarters all cleaned out. My matress will fit just fine in that cabinet. ;D Maybe you could raise rabbits or water buffalo in the extra space of the cabinet?
Brett
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As long as its the transformer section below the main cabinet you are meaning, yes you can have that to bunk up in if you make it across one of these days ;D
Hood
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Nice hunk of IRON. Cant wait to see what you do with it. Let the fun begin!
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Will be a while, especially if I decide to go down the painting route. Yours look great but I am crap at painting so may not do that ;D
Hood
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Degrease, sand with 400(ish) wet and dry, couple coats of filler primer, flatten with 600(ish) wet and dry, top coat, job done.
By the time you've run a couple jobs, any imperfections will be covered in oil/grease/coolant/swarf.
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I used to paint a lot of bikes tanks, fairings and panels etc and loved doing that and must have made a good job as everyone wanted theirs done so maybe what I should have said is I hate painting big areas, I get bored too easily and it tends to get a half hearted job done to it ;D
I got a load of 2 pack green today from the painter in the boatyard, not sure what it would look like with that but may give it a go, however I like the look of white and light grey VMC's but cant imagine they stay looking that good, or certainly not in my workshop ;D
Hood
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Orbital sander is your friend. Means you can't use wet and dry, but makes light work of large flat panels.
I'm of the opinion that working machines don't need to be works of art. They're going to get bashed/covered in ****, so I personally don't see the point in concours finishes in production enviroments. I can understand why somebody like JH does it, as it showcases the kind of work he does, and gives potential customers a good impression.
I'd personally keep it a light colour, as it'll help brighten up the workshop by bouncing light around. Nothing worse than a big dark box that just absorbs light, especially in small spaces.
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Yes I am of the same opinion, never bothered doing the Beaver and it shows but doesnt make it work any worse than it would have if it had been painted. I suppose I will see how the mood takes me or maybe see if the painter in the yard wants a homer, well thats if I can afford it ;D
Hood
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Not got much done to the Chiron except I removed the Z ballscrew. The Y had lost its ball bearing due to the column coming loose in transit and the Z losing them as I had to drop it off the end of the screw to get in the door. I dismantled both screws totally and cleaned them out and they seem to be in good condition, all balls good condition in each screw although of different sizes in either screw. I found the numbers on the nuts and was surprised to see they are class 2, I was expecting no better than class 5 :) The nuts have the internal crossovers instead of the external tubes but they were fairly easy to reload, just had to load from the ends. There are 6 tracks in each screw which again is more than I was expecting, I had thought there would be only 4 so again it points to high quality screws.
I got the Z screw refitted yesterday and modified the motor plate to fit my motor and got that in place and now the motors brake is holding the Z up so it means I can remove the stop I had welded up. I had been using the holes for the Y ballscrew to bolt the stop to so now I can remove it and get the Y ballscrew back in place.
I also managed to alter the coupling for the spindle drive, it had a 24 or 25mm hole in it but the shaft on the motor I will be using is 32mm so got that bored and keyed. The actual plate that the spindle motor mounts to is the correct size for my motor so I dont need to modify that :)
Hood
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Hood,
Seems your standard for "not much done" differs a lot from mine ;)
Why are you going to replace the spindle motor? In favour of a servo one? An interesting thing I recently discovered that VMC's usually have a plain 3 phase induction motor for spindle. I didn't know that since they all do rigid tapping and was expecting them to have servo spindle for that. Appears their sophisticated VFDs take care of this.
Dan
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Dan the spindle motor was a Siemens 1FT5076 which is an AC servo. They run lower volts and higher current than the drives I use so it wasnt really an option for me.
Hood
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Dan they also run encoders so that the Z can follow the spindle rpm to do a controlled decent and asscent. MAch3 does not have that ability as a spindle .
(;-) TP
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Not via the parallel port but it can with some external controllers. Mach4 with the parallel port should be able to, or at least according to Art, for threading the Z will follow the spindle encoder and should allow for spindle reversal so that should mean rigid tapping via the PP :)
Unlikely I will ever use the PP again but it will be great for some :)
Hood
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Got the ladder done for the toolchange, well at least I think I have as I wont be able to test it out for a long time but its looking good I think ;D
I need 27 inputs and 24 outputs so will have to get an extra 10 relay outputs for the PLC, already have an extra 16 input module so fine there.
I could do it all via the CSMIO but that would mean the complete toolchange in VB and I am crap at it and to be honest I prefer to trust a PLC with something so complicated.
Hood
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Not via the parallel port but it can with some external controllers.
CSMIO being one of them?
Dan
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Not at this time as far as I know but as lathe threading uses the full encoder (A,B,I) then it should be possible to alter the plugin to do rigid tapping and I think it is something Andrew has said they will look at in the future when I discussed it via email a while back.
Hood
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Got the wires for the tool changer and the Z and spindle motors run through the Igus and conduit to the cabinet. Managed to work out what all the wires are for. There are not so many outputs as I first thought as it seems the toolholders are all raised from one output instead of 12 individual ones. It makes sense really as all tools need to be up before the one to be used goes down so no need for separate outputs to do that, also makes it easier as there isnt a need to know which tool needs raised. So in total the tool changer has 27 inputs from the pox's and 17 outputs to the solenoids. There is one output that I am not sure about, its either to clamp the tool or an air blast to clean the tool being entered. I am thinking the latter at this stage but wont really know for sure until I can get air hooked up to test it. The solenoids have wee screws on them which can be used to manually operate them by turning 1/4 of a turn so hopefully I will get a chance to do it later in the week, it will also allow me to manually do tool changes to make sure everything is working.
I have cleared out the cabinet and removed some of the trunking but I am waiting on some new trunking to come so I can get a bit more wired. So far I have the PLC in place and have 16 of the solenoid wires hooked up to some relay boards. The PLC has relay outputs but I prefer to use external relays in addition as it means I am not putting so much current through the PLC's contacts and hopefully they will last better.
Few pics, one of the cables in the Igus and conduit and one of the PLC (also the 3phase to 24v DC supply I will be using)
Hood
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Looks like whatever was clipped on the DIN rail on the left side in the 2nd pic was runnin' a bit warmish, eh?
Luv to watch your re-do's! ;D
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That was the main contactors, rated at 90 amps and they look like the originals so must have been happy being warm ;D
Hood
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Managed to hook up air to the machine today and manually operated all the solenoids. The one I wasnt sure about is indeed an air blast to clean the tool being clamped. That is great news for me as it means I can parallel it to the tool changer up output and it will save me having to buy an extra output module for the PLC :)
There are quite a few leaks but nothing major and most at this time seem to be from pipe connections. I will be replacing all the pipework anyway so hopefully that will cure the leaks.
Hood
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Pic attached of the wiring I managed to get done today, all that is left to do for this part is run the power to the PLC, the serial cable and 24v feeds to the relay contacts.
I am likely going to have the motherboard in the control panel along with one of the CSMIO MPG modules, that will mean I have to run a long serial cable there and a cable from the MPG module to the CSMIO main controller back in the cabinet but doing it that way means I dont have to run long monitor leads, keyboard and trackball leads etc so its the best option I think.
Hood
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I guess the best way to reduce my ignance is to ask ignant questions. :-[
I found your DirectLogic PLC's website and looked around a bit but am still clueless other than the fact that if I ever get smart enough to need one, that's the place to go to save my money!
I don't have any experience at all in industrial automation so am curious about what it does and how you control it with Mach. Got a dumbed-down explanation of what it does and how you make it do it?
Thanks!
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Hood, glad that was for the tool blow off, that's great!
Dickey, the PLC is a Programmable Logic Controller. Think of them as relays you can turn on and off with software rather than wires. Hood is going to to have his handle the tool changes on this machine. Mach will send a signal to the PLC via serial that simply says get tool #XX. The PLC will get the tool and put it in the spindle and then send a signal back to Mach via serial that says (done) "OK, the tool you requested is in the spindle and ready to run. Mach will continue form there. The advantages to this are many IMO. One is that Mach can be performing other task such as running the tool path while the PLC is getting other things ready to change the tool. Also, PLCs are rock solid. They can last a very long time and do the same thing over and over perfectly. You can get different modules for different types of signals too. Different voltages, AC/DC, even high speed outputs to do things as drive a stepper or servo. Analog inputs and outputs booth voltage and miliamp............. they are very versatile. The list goes on and on.
Correct me if I'm wrong Hood.
Brett
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Cool, thanks Brett. I saw that the PLC comes with software to set it up so using that you tell it what input signals to look for and what you want the outputs to do? Sounds like a little standalone computer that can do many and wonderful things as long as you configure it properly. Nifty, that.
Hopefully Hood will touch on what the toolchanger looks for to do its job and how he sets it up later on when he gets around to it. (Not that I have a toolchanger on my ORAC....yet. ;D )
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Brett has explained it pretty well :)
I will maybe add that in the ladder within the PLC you can set up "virtual" relay contacts, timers etc, And them, Or them etc, very versatile.
A lot of what a PLC does can be done with Brains or VB script within Mach but the PLC is, as Brett says, rock solid, industrial quality and takes the load away from the computer for repetitive tasks. Add to that you only need one cable to communicate to Mach (serial or Ethernet) and that you can input different voltages it makes integrating things like 24v switches,relays etc a breeze.
Most industrial machines have PLCs, either built into the controller itself or a standalone one.
Tooolchangers are all different so their ladders can look vastly different, for example my lathe one uses timers in the ladder, the one I am doing for the Chiron is just straight I/O. I will post a section of the ladder I have done for this toolchanger tonight when I get home..
Hood
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...tonight when I get home.
You go home at night? With all the problems you solve on the forum and all the "real" work you get done I visualized a lumpy couch in the corner of your shop with a pile of meat pie boxes and Belhaven bottles stacked up beside it!:)
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Belhaven? That's far too expensive for somebody from above the Tay ;D
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Well any alcohol is too expensive for me, I dont touch the stuff ;D
Ok here is an explanation of the ladder in the PLC for the Chirons toolchanger, it is a lot harder to explain in writing than it is to actually do in the ladder ;D.
Inputs to PLC
There are 28 inputs in total
There are 2 prox switches on each tool cylinder, one for up and one for down. So 24 of them
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There are also two prox switches on the cylinders that raise and lower the whole tool cage
There is one on the tool clamping cylinder to indicate that it has unclamped.
I also have an input from my spindle drive to indicated spindle zero speed. That is settable in the drive to come on at whatever speed I choose and will likely be around 50rpm as the changer actually needs some rotation to engage the spring loaded dog into the tool holder.
Outputs from PLC
There are 16 Outputs, actually 17 bit the air clast I have just connected to the Toolchanger Up relay, so both will operate at the same time.
There are 4 rungs in this ladder for each tool and below you will see them.
The first rung goes like this
Tool 1 Signal From Mach is seen so the rung starts, when the signal from the drive indicates the spindle speed has dropped sufficiently it closes then the next two are OR’d, they are Tool 1 Up Prox and Cage Up Prox, however you will notice I have then as Normally Closed contacts in the ladder, that means that they will allow the ladder to complete if there are not any signals from them, i.e. if tool 1 was down then that contact would open.
So Tool 1 is Up so the NC contact is closed, the Tool cage is Up so at this point that contact is open. So we now have a complete path to the Solenoid output to unclamp the tool.
It unclamps which closes the contact below which is the Unclamped prox and the Tool is Up so the Tool Down contact next in the rung being a normally closed contact allows that part of the ladder to complete which means the Cage Down solenoid is activated.
In the next part the cage down prox is seen so it close.. The next part is looking at all the tool prox switches, they are in the ladder as NC so if all tools are up there will be no passage through to the output as all these contacts would be open. That is fine as if no tools are down there is no need to operate the Tool 1-12 solenoids. If however one tool is down then that would be a closed contact and allow that section of the ladder to complete and the Tool 1-12 Up solenoid would be operated output would be active.
Now to Rung 2.
We have the tool call from Mach and the Spindle Zero speed signal like before so they are closed, cage down and unclamped likewise. The Tool 1-12 Up Output is a NC contact, that means that this rung cant complete until all tools are up and the outputs has been switched off. It will be off as all tolls should now be up and because of that the output will not get power due to the part of the rung being shut off (NC contacts for Tool 1, 2 etc Up Prox being seen) So that contact is closed now and allows you to move onto the next, this is just an added safety, I have all Tool up prox inputs on that line, if one is not up then the rung cant complete. I have deleted them from the ladder so it able to be viewed in the pic and only have the first two but they will be added back in after I finish typing this ;D Anyway that rung completes so the Tool 1 Down Solenoid operates.
Now onto the next rung. Tool 1 signal from Mach, Zero Spindle speed are closed and when tool 1 prox is seen then that closes, the other tool up proxs are closed because the tools are up (again I have deleted them to allow me to get the pic on screen) and the rung completes and the tool cage Up solenoid operates.
Now if we go back to the first rung you will see a few things have happened.
First thing was, as mentioned before, Tool 1-12 solenoid was shut off as the tools were all up.
The rung above was also shut off when Tool 1 prox down was seen.
In the first part of rung 1 the Tool 1 Down NC contact is now open because Tool 1 is down but as I have the cage Up Prox as a NC it is still activating the tool unclamp solenoid but as the cage has now just been sent up that closes and the tool now gets clamped.
That is the toolchange complete and the only thing wee need to do now is tell mach so it can shut off the tool call signal and then carry on with the machining.
Rung 4 does that, Cage is up, Tool Unclamp signal is not seen, tool 1 down prox is seen so the rung is complete and the signal is sent to Mach, the toolchange macro in Mach has been waiting for this so now it sees it it shuts off the tool call then tells Mach to continue.
All of the above will happen in something like 1 second or less, shame it took me 30 mins to type it and probably a lot longer for you to read ;D
Hood
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How'n'ell you wrote all of that without a nip or two I'll never know. One thing's for sure; I'll have to dry out for a couple weeks before attempting anything close to that! :o
Seriously though, you do have a gift for explaining things to us dumba$$es and it's much appreciated. :)
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Its actually quite simple to do, or at least for me it is. You first need to know the sequence of I/O that you need to operate safely then you can write the ladder to make all the interlocks you need so one operation cant happen until the previous one has completed etc.
Hood
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With all the problems you solve on the forum and all the "real" work you get done I visualized a fat lump on the couch in the corner of your shop with a pile of meat pie boxes and Belhaven bottles stacked up beside it!:)
You`re lucky you`re only visualising it,I`ve seen it.
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Its actually quite simple to do, or at least for me it is. You first need to know the sequence of I/O that you need to operate safely then you can write the ladder to make all the interlocks you need so one operation cant happen until the previous one has completed etc.
Hood
Aye you`re doing not bad for someone that couldn`t spell plc a while back.
Suppose it was a help when someone gave you half the schematic too. :D
Edit: Well,maybe not quite half. :D
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With all the problems you solve on the forum and all the "real" work you get done I visualized a fat lump on the couch in the corner of your shop with a pile of meat pie boxes and Belhaven bottles stacked up beside it!:)
You`re lucky you`re only visualising it,I`ve seen it.
No fair editing my post & takin' the pi$$ while he's asleep on the couch.;D
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Still have problems spelling PLC but have dont seem to have an issue with reading things such as 0.1 Ohm 2W ;)
Hood
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Well any alcohol is too expensive for me, I dont touch the stuff ;D
So that's my problem............ hmmmmmm....and here I thought I was just an idiot.....some personal choices I've made may not have been good ones ;)
Dave
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:D
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Still have problems spelling PLC but have dont seem to have an issue with reading things such as 0.1 Ohm 2W ;)
Hood
Which is just as well as ISTR when you worked out the colour code that was not quite the answer you got.:D
If you want Forbes and me will come up and do the technical stuff for you.You just need to say the word.
If we were doing that I might even be able to find the rest of the drawing. :D
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If you get colour coding from not only a blind but a colour blind person you cant expect the answer to be correct ;)
I will pass on the offer of help but thanks anyway. I know you are busy trying to fix these old machines to keep them running and would hate to tear you away.
Unlikely you could find the other half of the drawing, as previously mentioned, it has now come to light that you are not only blind but colour blind as well :)
Hood
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Blind leading the blind....
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I will pass on the offer of help but thanks anyway. I know you are busy trying to fix these old machines to keep them running and would hate to tear you away.
Hood
Yeah,we keep the machines worth fixing and usually can find a village idiot for the ones that are not.
We do sell the odd quality machine like the Matchmaker which is actually a Shizuoka which went recently to a tall,charming man from south of the Tay.
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;D
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Yeah,we keep the machines worth fixing and usually can find a village idiot for the ones that are not.
Says the man who has two Bridgeports ;D
Hood
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You guys need to hook up with a reality show producer and get this drama on TV. It'd be a lot better'n friggin' Gold Rush or American Chopper. ;D
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You guys need to hook up with a reality show producer and get this drama on TV. It'd be a lot better'n friggin' Gold Rush or American Chopper. ;D
Sounds reasonable, now they have widescreen tellys Mark should fit :)
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;D
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You guys need to hook up with a reality show producer and get this drama on TV. It'd be a lot better'n friggin' Gold Rush or American Chopper. ;D
Sounds reasonable, now they have widescreen tellys Mark should fit :)
Only if I lie on my side,whereas you,my vertically challenged fat friend will fit perfectly standing up.
Remember there is a picture on the net of Chevy43,you and me,so I can produce the proof.
When that was first posted I got loads of emails asking if the old guy on the left was my grandad.
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You mean this picture or is it the other one?
Which of your chins were you rubbing whilst you pondered over your reply?
And BTW as you know I have lost 16Kg since then, I think I must have given it all to you and charged interest ;D
Hood
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;D
Brett
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Suppose I could grow a beard to hide the chins.
Been a better piccy if the light hadn`t been reflecting of your slaphead.
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Yes but then the problem would be you would always be tripping over the beard as it would be so close to the ground if it was covering ALL your chins :-)
Hood
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Still waiting on the trunking so cant get much done until then. Got the drives mounted and contactors etc but thats about it.
Have quite a few mechanical things to tidy up, straightened the Z way cover today but the X still has to be done. Could do with getting new rubber wipers for them but not sure where I would get that.
Hood
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Looks good Hood. I have a similar machine a Beaver Partsmaster. Same configuration but the tool carosel is at the side of the bed.
I know that Beak Bain do replacement way covers for many different machines..I've bought from them before, very good service, they have a library of discontinued way covers that cover a wide spectrum..they might have something..
John.
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A few pics!
John
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Sorry John. I had to delete your pics because they were crashing the thread. Try to up load them again in a smaller size. The max size per pic or post is 6000 KB.
Brett
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Ok thanks Brett Ill try the smaller size.
John
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Smaller pic hopefully ;D
John
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Pic of carosel and bed.
John.
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Back end!
John
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John, is that box ways? What size motors does it have for X Y Z?
Hood
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Hi Hood yes box ways. It has encoders on the ball screws x and y the z encoder is on the motor.
The motors are Siemens 1ft 5066 3000 rpm not sure on the nm rating but they are geared 2:1 with pulleys. 15m/min rapids x and y and 10m/Min on the z.
John.
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Hi Hood yes box ways. It has encoders on the ball screws x and y the z encoder is on the motor.
The motors are Siemens 1ft 5066 3000 rpm not sure on the nm rating but they are geared 2:1 with pulleys. 15m/min rapids x and y and 10m/Min on the z.
John.
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Hi Hood yes box ways. It has encoders on the ball screws x and y the z encoder is on the motor.
The motors are Siemens 1ft 5066 3000 rpm not sure on the nm rating but they are geared 2:1 with pulleys. 15m/min rapids x and y and 10m/Min on the z.
John.
The motors are 6.5 Nm.Are you running them from a Siemens 6SC610 drive?
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Hi Mark yes 6sc610 drives rod 456 500ppr encoders and heidenhain tnc 355b control.
John
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Any one after a 4th axis have this for sale on eBay item no: 281012873231
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281012873231?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
John.
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Thought it must have been bigger motors seeing it had the box ways, the Chiron had 1FT5064 4000rpm . Chiron is also geared 2:1 also with 10mm pitch screws.
Hood
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Looks like the machines are copies of each other don't know which design came first? This is one of the early Partsmasters with the single door..most have two doors and the Z axis encoder is on the ball screw on the later machines.
It has a 7.5 hp dc spindle motor although the manual says it should be 7.5kw but this one isn't was maybe ordered with the smaller motor not sure why though..
John
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Similar style right enough but quite a few differences, yours has 40 spindle taper, the Chiron is 30. Yours has box ways and Chiron has linear rails.
The spindle motor on this was 6000RPM and think about 9.5Kw. I have a motor of similar KW but only 3800rpm so not sure what I am going to do yet. I will probably just bolt it on for the moment and maybe try and make an increaser gearbox for it at a later stage. Torque of my motor is more than double the original so it should be fine if I do that.
Hood
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Looks like they were using the big motor to keep the torque at 6000rpm mines limited to 3500rpm. Did it use a servo spindle a 1ft5074?
John.
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Think it was a 1FT5076.
Just been looking at the motors I have here for the axis, was originally going to use the Osai Drives I have with F4030 motors but I only have 4050's here spare. I have 4030 on Z and X of the Beaver NC5 but think I will just leave them there for the moment. I will use the F4050 motors, with the Ultra 3000 drives I have, on X and Y, I will leave the Osai on the Z as I have a braked 4030 on it. The older Osai drives are limited to the motors I can use as you need to programme a personality module and the bin files for that size drive only go as high as 4030 motor :(
Hood
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When you`re programming the personality module do one for yourself.Try especially to improve acceleration and output. ;D
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Great idea, shame you dont have such a feature as I could have done the same for you, seems you are stuck being a being a grumpy old B ;D
Hood
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Great idea, shame you dont have such a feature as I could have done the same for you, seems you are stuck being a being a grumpy old B ;D
Hood
It`s all these screenhunter shots I get from an amateur cad jockey with his ideas of how sheetmetal boxes are laid out that makes me like this.Should stick to folding the ironing. :D
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Nae probs, next time you need one of your customers drawings opened and a screenshot taken of it try Blower, I will be too busy doing the house work :)
Hood
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Could one of you label the pictures as to who is who (;-)
(;-) TP
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I think they've already done every effort possible to eliminate any doubts ;)
Dan
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I am the one on the left and the right depending on which pic you look at ;D
Hood
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The little fat slaphead is not me. :D
If I was him I would get rid of the lying scales.16kgs ha ha.
For anyone in the uk,you can see him in his television job weeknights on ITV.He does Mr Sharma snr in Emmerdale.
MC has gone very quiet.
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HUM starting to sound like Larry, Moe and Curley.
(;-) TP
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I'm here. I'm just sitting back with some popcorn watching MachSupports answer to Grumpy Old Men ;D
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............MachSupports answer to Grumpy Old Men ;D
PERFECT ! ! ! :D
I knew I'd seen this before, just couldn't place it. ::)
:D :D
Russ
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Still waiting on the trunking so not got a huge amount done to the cabinet unfortunately.
I got all motors mounted for the axis but when I looked at the spindle and measured the distance from motor to coupling it looked strange, the Siemens motor must have a very short shaft on it and the one I am putting on has quite a long shaft. I didnt want to chop the motors shaft down as it may get used somewhere else in the future and also if I get another motor it too would likely have a shaft that was too long. I decided to make up a spacer, it had to be 45mm thick (plus 5mm spigot) but luckily I found a piece of heavy walled pipe in the store which was just about perfect in outside dia (205mm I needed 200) and the ID was 150 so that was fine as I think I was needing 175. Anyway turned up the spacer with spigot and register and went to fit it to check but found it was fouling the tool cage cylinders so had to shove it up on the Beaver and square it off. Got that done and then got the motor fitted and all went well.
This motor is only 3000rpm and I have a similar one on the Beaver which is 3800 and was originally going to swap them around but as I am toying with the idea of making up an increaser gearbox I have decided to leave as is for the moment.
Hood
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Nice job Hood.
Where there's a will ... there's a way.
I notice that some of the arms have slotted cover plates of sorts and some don't.
What are they for and are they to be on all arms ?
Thanks,
Russ
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HOOD that spacer is the ideal place to build your gearbox You may have to build it oblong to get it all in BUT would makes a NICE addition.
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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Russ
I have puzzled over what they are for and as of yet have not come up with a suitable conclusion ;D
TP
That was one of my reasons for making the spacer, I could have moved the coupling up the shaft by 15 or 20mm to reduce the spacer width needed but decided not to so that I had a bit more space to play with if I made a box up.
I have looked at using belts but its a bit too tight for them so I have a gearbox that was for my van (dont have it any more) that I will dismantle and see if there is anything suitable in there I can use.
Hood
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The slotted plate is a guard and the slot is to miss the banjo/flow restrictor on the air cylinders.There used to be one on all of them.
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But what are they guarding? thats what I havent worked out. Certainly dont stop crap getting to the arms or cylinders and dont see what they could be protecting the cylinders from.
Hood
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They do when the rest of the guard is on.
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There were 3 tool arms missing and also the back position had the cylinder missing. I managed to pick up a new cylinder on eBay which although not exactly the same model it is comparable in that it has the same fittings, stroke, prox sensing and adjustable damping at both ends.
I today managed to machine up some 3mm plate and get it welded up to make the tool arms, I have tried one and had to do a wee bit of adjustment (think big hammer ;D )to get it to work correctly but it is doing fine now, just have to finish off the swinging part that allows you to put the tools in then close to stop them falling out. I am not sure yet if I will attempt to make the quick release catch for this or just use a bolt or maybe even just a cable tie. Cable tie is looking favourite at the moment as they as so cheap it will be no problem having to snip them off and replace each time I change a holder (which wont be that often).
Hood
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Hood there were some arms listed over here on FleaBay. What model do you have?
(;-)TP
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Its a FZ12S
Hood
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Mark came through last night and brought through the control panel parts he had kindly folded up for me. I managed to get the two main parts welded partially together today and got the holes drilled for fitting to the swivel mount.
I hopefully will get the angle welded in tomorrow and also a few standoffs in the back to hold a plate to which I will mount the motherboard/HDD etc. I will also be putting the CSMIO/MPG module in there.
I dont think I am going to get much further with the Chiron at the moment as funds are tight at this time of year so it will likely be into the new year before I can order the CSMIO/IP-A controller and CSMIO/MPG module
Hood
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Looks great hood
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Thanks.
Managed to get the box fully welded, the angle base for monitor/button and keyboard/MPG plates welded and the monitor/button panel fitted. I have to make a new keyboard/MPG panel up as the engraving is wrong for the new controller, I only have 2 positions for MPG where I need 3 on this one. I dont have a piece of black Alu long enough so will have to make it two part unfortunately.
Hood
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Looking good Hood
(;-) TP
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Thanks Terry.
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Done a nice job Hood
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:o Looks real good Hood, makes me jealous. LOL
Brett
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Thanks :)
Hood
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The empty unpainted enclosure looks better than my finished "enclosure" lol. Nicely done.
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Sam, I am not having that, yours is what I would call "back to nature" all the rage nowadays I understand but I reckon you should get credit as a pioneer of the trend :)
Hood
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8)
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Small update, got the plate made up and computer etc installed. Also got the computers power supply fitted, its just below the board with the electronics on. I bored a 120mm dia hole in the back of the cabinet so that the PSUs fan will suck air in, might have to add a filter over it and maybe also fit another fan at the top to blow air out.
Hood
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Got the panel painted with primer and got the majority of the wiring done in it. Still have a network cable, a serial cable, a CanBus cable and two E-Stop lines to run. The CSMIO module in the pic is an extra I/O module for the buttons and I will fit a MPG module alongside it for the MPG, Pots etc, they will then connect to the main module which will be in the main control cabinet, via the CanBus cable.
I hope to get the serial cable in sometime this week, that will allow me to connect the PLC to the computer and I will then be able to test out the toolchanger and hope I have the ladder right ;D
Hood
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Hi Hood,
Panel looks very nice! Is it black anodized aluminium you use for engraving the panels?
Was the only reason for using the extra CSMIO I/O module your preference to not run the wires from the buttons all the way to the back cabinet? What's the module on the right? Is it the 24V PSU?
Dan
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Dan, its actually painted Alu, I was looking for black anodised but saw this stuff and thought I would try it and see, it seems fine but think I would still prefer anodised if I could find it at a reasonable price. On the Computurn lathe I made up the panel fronts with the cutouts etc then got them anodised locally but sadly the quality was poor and the price high, I have had a few other jobs done and every time it was the same so wont be trying them again.
Regarding the reason for the module, its kind of two reasons, first is I dont want to run the cable but mainly because I had it sitting waiting for some place to use it :) If I didnt already have it then I would have just run the switches back to the main controller in the electrical panel. The MPG module however I would still have in the control panel as it means only one Canbus cable going back instead of a load of wires. The 24v ones would have been fine but the 0-10v I really would have had to have shielded, so it saved me the bother. The MPG is differential so I wouldnt have needed shielding on them.
Yes it is a 24v PSU, again the only reason I put it in is because I had it (have a few I have picked up over time) I have the main 24v PSU in the electrical cabinet, a big 3phase input one, think 10 or 20 Amps. I was originally just going to run the wires forward from it but as said had the other PSU and also plenty space so thought I might as well use it ;D
Hood
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Anyhow, I think the way you have it now with the IO module at the front with only one canble running from it to the back is better. You got me thinking now though... it's not a cheap solution to not running the buttons wires to the back... but I am leaned towards it now that I see how nice it came out.
Dan
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It does make for a neat setup but I suppose it wouldnt be too much different running the cables back to the I/O in the electrical panel. As I am using a PLC for the toolchanger then I have loads of I/O unused, I am going to have to think of things to use them for ;D
I had thought about putting the main control unit in the front cabinet but it would have meant that I needed to run encoder cables and the analogue control cables up to the front so decided against it.
Hood
Hood
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Wow, that looks darn good, Hood. Every button ya need, right there in the same box. Shame about the local anodizing place. The lack of professionalism in the world is simply astonishing. Anodized and laser etched would really be the ticket.
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Laser would be good Sam, ideally making a panel up, getting it anodised so that the edges were coloured then engraving, either laser or even milling like I did. The place I used for the anodising do mainly plating which I think they are a bit better at, although I have heard some bad stories about that as well. I have heard of another place fairly local that does anodising so I may try them out the next time.
Hood
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Looks great Hood, nicely done, sir-
Dave
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Thanks Dave.
Hood
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Eyecandy!
Brett
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Sadly for you I have not inserted any silicone implants on the panel ;D
Hood
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That might actually inspire Brett to get some work done ;)
Dave
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Probably the opposite, he will have a vacant look on his face whilst he dreams of the silicone :-D
Hood
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Yeah, but at least it'll get him into the shop and looking at the controls ;D
Dave
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Hood, Dave may be right. Could you send me an example for inspection?
Brett
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;D
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I hear a rewire is in progress.Can someone send a connection diagram for a proximity switch to Carnoustie,apparently some I`s are not and vice versa. :D
I told him that would happen if he copied the ladder from a window cleaners van.
Never mind,all the flashing leds fit in well with the Christmas decorations. :D
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Well you were right Granny McGrath, wiring changes were needed, well really just one and a removal of another. Problem was when some dipwad removed the cylinder and prox's from Tool 10 they decided to link out tool 10 up prox'x signal wire back to the PLC. Instead of putting Tool 10 Up wire to +24v like you would expect they connected it to tool 11 up prox. Rather a strange thing to do as either they must have had to change the ladder or the ladder did not have any real interlocks in place. I think the former as I cant see the Germans doing a ladder that was not watertight.
There was another problem, the Tool 10 down prox wire had been chopped off and left hanging, this had linked out two of the other prox's (tool 2 Up and Tool 3 down) so that there were false signals going back through to the PLC.
One last issue was the prox on tool 1 Up was too low, this meant when fully up the prox had been passed so was not being seen, simple loosen of the set screw and adjust and its fine.
Now all I have to do is wait for the cables to arrive so that I can make up a serial connection between PLC and Computer and I can then test out the ladder :)
Hood
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Well you were right Granny McGrath, wiring changes were needed,
snipped
Computer and I can then test out the ladder :)
Hood
Some day when you`re older Dobie I`ll explain plc`s and ladders to you.:D
If I had bought a machine with no cnc control and no servo drives,I`d hardly blame someone else when I make a total pigs ear of the wiring and programming of my plc.
However if you feel better for it,I don`t mind and will even put your toys back in the pram for you,but it`s still your turn for the fish suppers next time I`m up.
Did I mention my cables from the same place as yours and ordered two days later appeared yesterday? :D
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The cylinder was missing when I got the Chiron, along with the prox's so I presume it was the previous owner that removed them and altered the ladder. Oh wait no it must have been the owner previous to him as the previous one couldnt alter Siemens ladders ;D
BTW hows the Churchill repairs going, should be nearly finished by now as its only been broken for 2 years, then again the Mazak hasnt worked yet and you have had that at least 6 years, maybe one day you will manage to work things out ;D
And heres a pic of the rather strange way the Tool 10 prox was linked out, why it was done that way I have no idea, only a clown would link it to another tools prox ;)
Hood
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You guys been married long?
Picking on each other like you have shared the same fart sack. ;D
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You have to make allowances for Robin Dempster aka Hood.
He still thinks he discovered electricity a couple of years back and he`s not too competent on the social skills either. :D
He conveniently forgets that things beyond my control have held up my work programme for the last four years.
But my business has still managed to make profits during these years.
Enough profits that enables one to sell scrap machines cheap to the poor boys.
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ouch! :D
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Thankfully being obsessed with money is not one of my flaws ;)
Hood
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Surely it's the job of the person doing the retrofit to check wiring?
And one mans scrap is another mans gold ;)
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ONLY the noble Robin HOOD could make that claim.
Well said Sir Robin of Hood.
(;-) TP
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Thankfully being obsessed with money is not one of my flaws ;)
Hood
I`ll add "business" and "work ethic" to plc and ladder as things to be explained to you.
Is there a reason you`ve stopped mailing me? :D
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Here is the first run of the Chirons tool changer running under Mach control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pILjZ-JXCRQ
I start at tool 11 and have a 1 second delay between tool calls. Tool 7 doesnt have an arm on it yet (have it made but not the pins) and tool 10 has no cylinder, arm or prox switces so I am not calling it. Tool 9 has a problem, it is not raising the arm when a new tool is called, I have not looked yet but I think it will either be a burnt out coil on the valve or possibly a fault in the PCB that the solenoid valves plug into.
Wont have a chance to look until tomorrow as I have to head out :(
Hood
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Nice, Hood. Like how smooth it looks despite being that fast.
Dan
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That is slick as hell, my friend, thanks for sharing the video!
Just a freaky looking beast for sure!
Dave
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Good Job
(;-) TP
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What an amazing thing to watch! Looks like something out of a science fiction movie. ;D
When was it produced originally?
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When was it produced originally?
It was made in 1987 and had a Siemens 810 control originally.I bought it about ten or twelve years ago and ran it up until last December.
I used it mainly as a drill/tap machine as it`s only a 30 taper,but give it it`s due it handled spells of quite heavy work.
It had sat idle most of this year so we decided to get rid of it.It was worth more dead than alive so I kept the control,axis drives and motors and spindle motor.
I knew Hood wanted a bedmill so gave him first chance of it and he made a fair offer so off it went.
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I remember seeing one MANY years ago in a production shop. It reminded me of the robot on Lost In Space." DANGER Will Robinson Danger" With it arms failing about.
First thing in the morning we all chuckled at it BUT at the end of the DAY I was amazed at HOW MUCH WORK it had done. AND it did it 24/7.
(;-) TP
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Had a look at the problem with Tool9 not rising and the coil is good so thats not so good as that was the easy fix. I removed the coil so I could meter the contacts on the circuit board through the hole in the plate and there was no voltage there so it looks like its a circuit board problem. There are two diodes visible through the hole but they both check out ok so it must be something else on the board. I am not sure what I will do at this stage as I have two options. One is to remove all the pipes, cylinders etc and remove the whole panel on the top and hopefully I can then access the circuit board or two I can just jumper a wire across from the cylinder next if I can gain access to connect a wire. Option two will be the easiest but as I will not be ordering a CSMIO until the new year I may have a look at doing the first option.
Late last night I managed to alter the ladder and make up a new page for the screenset so that I can call a tool to lower it down but not raise up into the spindle. That will make it easy to swap out tool holders in the arms. You can manually pull down the arms easily even when the air is on so I could have just loaded tools that way but it would have been a bit more awkward on the back tool arms so I decided to go for the ladder/screenset option and it is working well :)
Hood
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Looking good.
At the moment I'm thinking, 35 seconds to go through all the tools. I'll be lucky if my new toy can manage one change in that time!
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That is only 10 tools as position 10 doesnt have a cylinder and 9 I didnt call as it sticks down and needs me to manually activate the solenoid with a screwdriver. However I have a 1 second delay between the tool calls in the code I wrote so you can take another 9 or so seconds off that. The main cylinders for raise/lower the cage has dampers on them and Mark had them screwed up to make it a bit slower and I have just left them there.
Hood
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Even with only 10 tools, it's far quicker than anything I'll get.
I've got the majestic one arm bandit to look forward to, but that's firmly on next years todo list along with the rest of the mill.
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If it changes tools for you its all that matter really :)
You still going the stepper route?
Hood
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Very true.
Yeah. My current plan is Kflop+Kanalog, as that allows me to close the loop with steppers and have differential encoders, then allow an easy upgrade to servos later. However got a couple upgrades I want to do to the lathe first, so the mill is pretty low down the priority list.
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Can see why you may want to get the Kflop/Kanalog for future upgrades to servos but dont see the point in trying to close the loop with a stepper. If a stepper is losing position it is because its overloaded and trying to make it catch up will just stall it all the more.
For error reporting then it would be fine but that is not closing the loop so I presume that is not what you are meaning.
Hood
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It means I can push the steppers a little bit harder if needed and know if I've pushed them too far.
But also with having the encoder wiring already in place, combined with high voltage stepper drivers, a servo upgrade should be a quick and relatively painless move.
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Had a look at removing the solenoid valve manifold/panel and its not a 5 minute job so I decided to just solder a couple of wires in the main plug and bring them out to tool 9's up coil. It worked well and tool 9 is now fully operational. I think I will at some point however try and remove the panel and find out what the actual problem with the circuit board is.
I got the tool arm mount from tool 10 removed yesterday. Someone has tried to remove it before as 2 or the three capscrews were missing and the third was rounded. As it is at the back and actually inside the head casting it is quite awkward to get to but I called for the cage to lower which gave a bit more access. I tried tapping a torx driver in but couldnt get in straight enough so borrowed a right angled drill from the boatyard and managed to drill the head off the capscrew.
I got the cylinder fitted , two prox's fitted and also the tool arm then finally I got the mount screwed back in place. Got it piped up and the prox's wired and it to is now working. I have all the tool arms fitted now so all that remains is to get the swing doors made up for two of the arms.
All 12 tool positions are now working but I forgot to put a bit of damping on tool 10's cylinder so it comes down a bit faster than I would like. Hopefully I will manage to get my hand in to adjust it a bit, if not I will just drop the cylinder and give it a turn.
Heres a vid of all 12 tools now working.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ8KAuzgSjE
Hood
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It's absolutely awesome, but that poor little odd toolholder looks like the little awkward red-headed step-child that no-one likes, lol!!
Sorry, probably had a bit too much to drink today..... ;D
Dave
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LOL hes just got a bandage on thats all :D
Hood
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Looking good Hood, I like the little red head. :)
Brett
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I like the little red head. :)
Brett
Yes Brett, I have heard that you do, well as long as they have implants ;D
Hood
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;D
Brett
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No real progress yet as that will have to wait until I get the controller. I did however buy a Yaskawa spindle motor/drive/transformer that I thought may do for the Chiron, its 6000rpm like the original. It is a big motor and is too big to fit between the cylinders but I reckoned I could modify them and make it fit. I then looked at the weight of the motor and thats when I saw this was not going to be a good idea ;D
It is 90Kg. the original motor is 20Kg and the one I was going to use was about the same.
It is actually about the same physical size as the big servo I have on the big lathes spindle but even that is only 57Kg.
I am not sure what I will do, I have a few options.
I can keep this as a spare for the big lathe, its a bit down on torque but should be enough.
I can put it on the manual lathe (I fitted a servo to it to bypass the noisy headstock) and then put the motor from it on the Chiron.
I could fit it to the manual lathe, put the motor from it on the Beaver and put the motor on the Beaver on the Chiron.
I also have a motor drive I had bought a while ago planning to use it for the manual lathe but although it was bigger it just faulted out with over current, not sure if it is a drive issue or motor issue but also wondering if it was a config issue as it uses a personality module. I have just compared the hex file from the module to one I just generated in the software and there are differences. Only thing is it is a hassle to get the other motor removed and this one all wired and fitted to the manual lathe only to find its the same. I could fit this to the Beaver and see if it looks ok on that but again its a bit of a hassle if its not right.
I will have to decide at some point but at least I have a few options :)
Hood
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Hood looking at your Automation Direct D06 plc and wondering if it is possible to fit one to my Beaver vc35. My Sestep 400 PLC has gone down and its going to cost a fortune to get an exchange for another which could also go down any time as these are very old and no one seems to know how to repair them!
The sestep has two 30 pin plugs for inputs and two 30 pin plugs for outputs. I have the full input and outputs list for the machine so I can trace each pin on the sestep to an input or output on the machine.
The 30 pin plugs come off the interface board which takes signals from the Fanuc control and sends them to the sestep. Signals then go back from the sestep to the interface board which then outputs to relays and solenoids etc
Could I connect upto an Automation Direct plc by using female plug sockets attached to the 4 off 30 pin male ones I have now and take wires from the back of these plugs to the a/d plc input and output terminals?
Then write a new ladder for the plc?
My friend has the Boxford vmc that you fitted an Automation Direct D06 to, that gave me the idea!
John.
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Ask Mark if he knows anyone that can fix the Sestep. I was though a while back helping him swap some boards from one to another to get a machine running and I know he was in contact with someone about repairing them. Think it was may have been Servotek but not sure.
Regards the DLO6, yes you could use one I would think but you would need extra modules. Are all of the 30 pins in each connector used?
Hood
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According to my Beaver manual the sestep will do up to 48 inputs and 48 outputs. I've counted approx 94 pins being used on the list in the manual.
As long as I know I can use a modern PLC that would be worth looking at..I'm on my 3rd sestep in 4 years and spares are getting hard to find not to mention the cost!
Plus when they do pack in its usually half way through a tool change!
Might try Servotek to get it running again then work on a new plc for the future.
Presumably I will need to know the voltage and current of the signals coming from the interface board to the sestep and the same for the outputs from sestep back to the interface board..?
Thanks, John.
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You can have up to 4 expansion modules in the DL06 PLC.
You can get input module of up to 16 point and outputs also of 16 point but they are sink/source outputs. If you need relay outputs then you only get a max of 8 per expansion module.
You can get different versions of the DL06 PLC, mine is DC 12-24V Inputs and relay outputs. Each set of 4 inputs share a common but you can have each bank of 4 inputs set as sink or source. Likewise for the relay outputs, they to share a common between 4 relays.
Hood
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That sounds good, maybe a different model a/d plc might be better to get more i/o though.
Most of the i/o seems to be involved with the tool changer air solenoids and checking the states of proximity sensors on the tool changer arm, the power draw bar position and the spindle orientation. Plus there is spindle drive enable, spindle drive ready, emergency stop relay, low lube pressure, low air pressure and tool number digital readout to name a few!
Input plug 1 seems to deal with T word and M words.
The interface board puts out 24v I think but will need to check that.
Are the extra modules expensive or can they be found on ebay?
John.
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You will get the prices here.
http://lamondeautomation.co.uk/acatalog/DL06_discrete_IO.html
Dont see many on eBay.
If you know someone in the USA that could buy for you and send across then its a lot cheaper, assuming of course customs dont grab you, which is quite rare now.
Hood
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What controller is on your VC35?
If it`s a Heidenhain it will not be as simple as writing a new plc programme for a new plc.
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Thanks Hood I will check that link.
Hi Mark the machine is on Fanuc 6ML and it has the Beaver interface board which has the TC1 and TC2 cables going out to the tool change interface board which switches solenoids and is wired to the prox sensors for the tool change arm.
John
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John,the reason for asking was that some of the sestep outputs and possibly inputs are from the plc programme in the Heidenhain controlled machines which have the plc programme on an eprom and which would make it very difficult to rewrite the sestep part of it as there is as far as I know only one guy in the land who knows what that is.I would think that looking at how Beaver developed the machines and controls that the Sestep is being used as an extension IO board more than a plc in its own right.
The same guy quoted me a not too bad price for a sestep repair but he may not offer the same prices to everybody.
The Fanuc interface will no doubt bring it`s own problems.
Btw are you the John I think you are from the Manchester area?
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Yes Mark that's me from Accrington.
I spoke to Beaver Mike last time I had a sestep exchanged and he said Mark at servotek had fitted a mitsubishi plc to a Beaver with Fanuc so I had just presumed it was possible to do that but I see your point as I was wondering how the sestep did the tool numbers.
Looking at the wiring diags it seems pretty straight forward with inputs and outputs to the sestep all listed but I'm sure to be missing things having not studied it to deeply!
John.
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The Fanuc control on this machine doesn't have the usual PC model B board so no plc at all on the Fanuc side just a connection board to take outputs from the Fanuc motherboard to the Beaver interface board (all these pin outs are in the manual).
John.
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By the way Mark can your guy repair these sesteps as Beaver Mike only does exchange and has no knowlege on how to repair them.
John.
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Beaver Mike must have someone repairing these or he`s doing it himself because they have not been made for over twenty years and Sprecher and Schuh who made them were taken over by Rockwell I think and never made another plc,so ask yourself where are the exchange units coming from.
The only guy who can test them that I know is Mark at Servotek.He`s offered a fair price to repair mine but I`m undecided whether to check a bit on it first as the chances are it will be a cap that`s gone.
I know about him fitting the Mits plc but he has all the info as he was at Beaver up until the end.
I bought a VC5 that someone had tried to replace the Sestep on with a Siemens S5.It didn`t run because they did not know how to write the plc programme.I did,but thought it was simpler to upgrade to a 155 control and Heid external plc board as later machines had gone that way and I had drawings and a spare control so it was quite a straightforward job and the machine is standard.
If I was you I would stick with the Sestep.Get prices from MSS and Servotek.Best to email Servotek.
Or,I`ll give you £200/tonne for the machine. :D
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The exchange sesteps I've had from Mike are ones that come from scrapped machines I think as they have no repairs on them.
They still have the original leaky seamos buffer battery in them reading about 0.5v! (not sure if the battery does anything anyway?)
Can you write Heidenhain plc programmes or did you use one from a later all heidenhain machine just curiouse!?
I'm sure I can fill the column full of scrap metal and make it weigh around 20 tonnes, then we have a deal ;)
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I can write plc programmes but the easy way for a Beaver is to tell Servotek the serial number and get a pre programmed eprom by return.Another way is to get someone with the same model of machine and control to call up the plc code number on the screen and then you order the eprom from Heidenhain.
The plc programme must match the machine because it`s obviously looking for certain inputs before it lets the control give any outputs.
On the machine I upgraded I had to disconnect every wire from the interface board,the plc and the control and ring them all through to identify them and connect them to the correct terminals.
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Yes I like the Heidenhain controls especially being able to mod the ladder with it all being viewable on the screen and built into the control as opposed to having a separate plc. The Partsmaster I have is like that it's on Heidenhain 355.
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Also you can put the ladder from a 355 in any of the 400 series controls and the ladder will be automatically updated to work on the newer control. Great for a retrofit!
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Replaced all of the pipes on the changer that hadnt been already replaced and got the leaks down quite a bit with that. When I first got it the compressor kicked in every 5 or 6 minutes but after replacing the pipes and the air filter/regulator/oiler it was down to every 30 mins which was not too bad. It seemed to leak a bit more on tools 4, 5 and 12 so I managed to source a couple of valves on US eBay and got them sent to Brian as Graham was across at Christmas and had kindly said he would bring them back to the UK with him. I fitted the new valves to tools 4 and 5 positions and it was just the same :( So I knew it had to be inside the mounting block that all the valves and pipes fit to.
I had some spare time today so decided to have a closer look at what would be involved in removing the whole unit and saw that actually it wasnt as bad as I had first thought. Most of the pipes came out via two plates either side and they were held on with only two screws, there were another 6 pipes that were either push fit or nut fittings and then the only other thing to do was unscrew the terminal housings either side and remove the main wiring plug. Only two cap screws then held the whole block in place.
I got it removed, removed the valves and then saw the screws that held the circuit boards in place so I got the circuit boards out and thats when I noticed the whole thing was made up in layers and glued together so no real way to try and fix the remaining leaks without risking damaging it :(
The time was not totally wasted however as I did find the problem on the circuit board that had stopped tool 9 solenoid working, it was a bad diode so I hunted around and managed to find one in an old battery charger. Put it all back together and it works fine now so I can do away with the bypass wiring I did earlier on.
Still has the leak obviously but at least I know if it gets worse I can try and break things apart and if it crumbles I can make one up out of delrin or aluminium. I will likely try and make it bolt together and have '0' ring seals instead of glueing it. Hope it doesnt come to that though as I can put up with the compressor every 30mins ;D
Below are a few pics, first is the unit in places, next is it off then next is with valves removed which allowed me to see the screws for the circuit boards. Last pic shows the boards and also the layered construction.
Hood
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While I know I'm never much help around here, (especially for the brainiac that you are ;) ) I may have a few lame ideas to try even though I have no clue how this works. ;D
Now I realize these glued layers may run deep into the center of this conglomeration, have you tried to apply air to the unit and maybe run a candle around it to see if it's leaking on the outer edges? At least it might give you a clue to where it/they are?
Or possibly a thin soapy water solution rubbed across the surfaces would bubble and reveal a leak?
EDIT: if you do find a leak, possibly a good quality "melting" type glue would help/hold?
Dave
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Dave,
I think it will be glued all over the surface of each layer, reason being there will be lots of channels cut into each layer to route the air from the valves to where it ends up (pipes out, exhausts) so it will have to seal internally.
The leaks are exiting via the exhaust silencers so that is why I was thinking it was leaky valves, ie the air bypassing the seals in the valves but replacing the valves proved that not to be the case :( The leaks could really be anywhere inside the block but most likely they will be nearer the valves as that will be where the air channels are closest.
Applying a hot air gun may be the way to separate the layers, maybe even just applying hot air for a while and clamping the whole block between some alu or steel plates would be enough to soften the glue and reseal but for now I will let it be as its not too bad now I have replaced all the old pipes.
Hood
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Ah, I see, good to know you're right on top of it ;)
Dave
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If I were on top of it I reckon it would be crushed ;D
Appreciate the input though :)
Hood
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@Hood,
Great to see your postings here. I have purchased the bones of a Chiron FZ12w that looks to be about the same vintage as yours. I have replaced just about every single airpline to eliminate leaks.
In regards to the leaky solenoid valves I ended up cutting my own aluminum parts (I have a full CNC shop) to replace the awful Festoo plastic pieces that were cracking. I didn't like the idea of spending the $100usd per solenoid to replace half of them. I can send you the 3D file if you like.
I look forward to reading your exploits with this machine. i will be retrofitting as well since I can't make heads or tales with a nearly 20 year old Siemens controller. My plan is to retrofit the control using the existing electronics and Simodrive components running in Mach. For the toolchange I am leaning toward an industrial microprocessor since the tool change process is really a mechanical logic circuit and won't require complex macros. Either way I look forward to hacing my FZ12w working again. It has the indexing table with dual 4th axis so It's quite the handy production machine.
Regards and good luck.
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Keep the Siemens Warren its a dam good industrial control, it has closed loop and has
back lash comp which mach doesn't have so why swap!
John.
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Mach do have back lash comp!
I am not certain all external motion control HW do support it, but most do and so do paraller port.
Closed loop do not bother me, as servos I use closes loop in the drive. If folowing error limit is exceeded then machine will estop. Old commercial controls work similar way, they do not have ability to slow feed down if drive/motor can not keep up.
Not the mention siemens spare parts prices ... ;)
-M
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warrenb,
would appreciate the 3d files, not sure if it would be the same setup as mine but definitely worth a look.
Will pm my email address.
They are definitely meant for high volume production work, mine will never be use for that as I dont like or ever want to do anything in that line, I much prefer doing one offs.
Hood
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Keep the Siemens Warren its a dam good industrial control, it has closed loop and has
back lash comp which mach doesn't have so why swap!
John.
I'd love to keep the Siemens controller since the machine is set up for it already. The problem is finding anyone that knows a 20 year old controller on this side of the 'pond.' The battery died a while back and loading the parameters worked but since then the machine has never returned to origin. Chiron USA is pretty useless for support and Chiron DE doesn't have anyone that even knows how to support it.
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Hi Warren thanks for the models, not sure where they would fit in so thinking your setup may be different than mine.
I passed Marks info on to you, I am sure he will only be too pleased to give you info on the Siemens. I know there was mention of having to tell the control the actual working area or something like that and until you did that nothing would work, kind of sounds like your problem but Mark will know for sure.
Hood
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Well I got the controller today, busy at the moment so not sure when I will get some wiring done but clipped the control and encoder module and the connectors onto the din rails to make sure I had the spacing correct.
I am not sure if I will need the encoder module or not, it may or may not be needed when/if rigid tapping is done in the CSMIO plugin. I have the analogue control so in theory the encoder inputs should work fine on that for the spindle but as I will probably be putting a CSMIO on the big lathe at some point I will be able to use the encoder module on it, if its not used on the Chiron.
Pic of the control clipped to the din rail below.
Hood
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Nice and clean. Are you doing the PLC programming? I am debating (if I can't get the Siemens controll on my FZ12 to work) wether to PLC the tool changes or run it as a simple mechanical logic system with an industrial microprocessor keeping track of the inputs and outputs.
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Yes programmed the PLC, its quite a big ladder but I find ladder logic fairly easy especially compared to VB etc ;D
Hood
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Been a busy spell the last few weeks and not got much done.
The coolant when I got it just seemed to be operated from a panel switch or so I understand, however it seemed like things may have been altered at some point as I found mounting holes near the main coolant hose which would suggest there had been solenoid valves fitted at one time, also there was a relay board which likely was used to control the valves. The relay board had fried traces on it as the diodes had shorted, this is likely why things had been bypassed. I also found that there was an outlet at the top of the sloping floor in the enclosure, it is a washdown :) The pipework had been bypassed so obviosly not been used for a long time.
Anyway fitted some valves I had bought a while back and repaired the relay board and its all working from Mach now, either panel switches or code. I still have to rewire the coolant pump as it has no earth connection as the wire that has been replaced at some point is only 3 core.
I have also made up a height setter and have mounted it on the front of the enclosure, I will be connecting this to Mach via the Encoder module I have for the CSMIO and the readings can be read via a macropmp and modbus and I can update directly to the tool table.
I also got quite a good deal on some servo drives/motors and cables, they are Telemechanique Lexium05 drives, 3Kw and Berger Lhar servo motors, 2Kw continuous rating.
They are supposed to have only been used for a short period on a test rig but need to wait on a RS485 converter before I can connect to the PC to set them up and also will probably find maintenance info which will let me know how long they have been in operation. I bought 6 sets plus an extra motor and 2 extra sets of cables for £1250 which is a good deal I think :) 3 of them are for a friend.
Below are a few pics, first the height setter next a close up of the motor/drive/cables and lastly the drives fitted in the control cabinet.
Hood
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Love your tool setter patent, Hood. Should consider doing one. Really looks very convenient.
The servos look new indeed. But hey, how do you manage to get all those great deals...
Dan
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But hey, how do you manage to get all those great deals...
It has to do with him having a horse shoe in a cavity......................... ;D
Brett
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Dang Hood, you wasted no time hanging those drives in the cabinet. :)
Its looking good Hood! The tool setter will be another must have fad that you will have to claim responsibility for. :)
Brett
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Dan,
the toolsetter on the Beaver Mill is very convenient indeed and I knew I just had to make one for the Chiron.
Regarding the drives, just keep an eye out on eBay, guy had the motor and drive listed seperately, £150 motor £250 drive and said he had more. emailed him to ask how many he had and how much he would be for multiples, he came back wit a price and I asked if he could do a bit better and he did :)
Brett
Doesnt take minutes to do that, bore and tap 12 holes , will take a bit longer to run the wires and get them all wired. Spent a while the last night soldering 132wires into the D Sub connectors on the I/O cable, now have to cut them off as these drives are different ;D
Hood
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Good deal Hood! Will the drives do +/- 10v analogue command or just step direction?l
John
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He...he.. to keep an eye out on eBay, the least that's required is knowing what you're looking for - I didn't know the above brand up until a few hours ago ;)
Dan
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Yes, speed or torque mode for analogue, encoder follower or step/direction for position and can also be commanded over Modbus and CANopen.
Hood
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Dan,
likewise, but a quick search and a read of a pdf and you find out if they are suitable or not. These as it happens look like very capable drives, just hope they are as good as they look in the documentation ;D
Telemecanique, Berger Lahr an Schneider are all one company now.
Hood
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Still trying to sell my 4th axis anyone interested ;)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281065111177?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
Item No: 281065111177
John.
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Still trying to sell my 4th axis anyone interested ;)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281065111177?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
Item No: 281065111177
John.
Obviously meant for my attention, yes I would love it, however I fear you would not be too happy with the price I would be willing to pay ;D
Hood
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Ok worth a try ;D
John
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Got the USB to RS485 converter yesterday but just got time today to hook up a drive and see if I could connect to a drive. Found I only need the logic connected so that means I can bring a drive home and get used to the software in the evenings :)
I looked at the info in the drive and it has a time powered entry, one drive has been powered for a total of 136 hours and the other I looked at was 78 hrs so looks like they are almost new :)
Unfortunately the drives can not be set up with custom motors like the AB drives, I use, can but I was in hopes that I could use an AB motor I have with them. Reason I thought it may be possible is the drives only accept motors with Hiperface encoders, these encoders store all the relevent motor data onboard and send it to the drive on power up. I was thinking the drive would read the info from my AB motor and set the parameters accordingly but sadly it didnt :(
That means I wil need to use one of the motors that came with the drives for the Z Axis which in itself is not a problem as they are powerful enough, the problem is they are not braked motors. I have however found a motor I bought years ago and it has a brake, I got it really cheap and it had a Heidenhain ECN encoder so was no use for me unless I put another encoder on. I have now stripped out the brake so will be able to make up a housing on top of the Z axis pulley to fit the brake to.
Hood
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Got the three axis motors fitted and cables run, the Y and Z motors cables run through some flexible conduit from the column to the cabinet and its a tight fit as the spindle cables also run through it, but got there.
Also got some other wiring done, contactors for coolant and axis drives and I am using a safety relay to power the contactors from a start/stop button I have placed on the control panel. The computer, 24v supply and CSMIO will all be live when main isolator switch is on but the contatcors for axes spindle and pump only come on when I press the green start button. I have the E-Stop wiring running through the safety relay so if I do not have the contactors switched on I can not take Mach out of reset even if I have the E-Stop pulled out.
I have another safety relay on its way, this one I will use for the E-Stop. It has 3 NO immediate contacts and 2 NO Off delay contacts. The way I will have these servos wired is when I hit the E-Stop the safety relay will close the instant contacts which will send a halt signal to the drives, that will do a powered stop to all axis and then the off delay contacts will close and disable the drives via the dual inputs they have for that purpose.
Have also disembowelled the servo motor I had lying about and managed to eventually get the windings out and the shell cut down and welded to a 20mm thick piece of Alu. I made up a shaft that bolts to Z pulley and this then all bolts together to house the brake for the Z axis.
Few pics below.
Hood
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As always, like your wiring work. Clean and nice. Yuor setup for the Z brake is nice too.
Dan
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I would have preferred to have the brake on the motor but the ones I got with the drives didnt have them so had to think up something else.
Suppose there is a benefit to this way,I can remove the motor and the brake will still hold the axis, then again its (hopefully) unlikely I will have to change a motor.
Hood
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Yes having the brake seperate to the motor is a good feature. Had a crushed encoder cable on the Beaver Partsmaster when I got it. I was able to unplug the power cable to the brake so it didn't release when I powered the machine up. Meant I could have the motor on the bench and check it was all ok with the new cable before I remounted it knowing the head wouldn't come crashing down into the bed!
John
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Well I wasnt going to bother painting but I am getting some doors for the front, they will be mainly toughened/laminated glass with lower part stainless, so I thought I better tart it up a bit to match. The doors will be sliding in a similar fashion to the originals, they are getting made by a friend who works with toughened glass and he is also getting me some vinyl stickers to finish things off. I drew up a dxf for them as close to the original as I could and I think they will be fine. The FZ12 part of the original was smaller but I decided to keep them all the same size.
The painting.
I have lots of 2 pack green so decided to use it, it also matches in fairly well with the big lathe and the wee lathe is already painted that shade. I have got some of it painted but a fair bit to do yet but I am pleased with the results so far.
I also got some white 2 pack paint today so I will do the inside with that, hopefully that will help keep things bright inside once the side panels go on. There is one fluorescent light inside but there should be two so I will see if I can source another, may end up just getting two new ones.
I also got a servo drive that will do for the spindle and the emergency stop module arrived today so I should manage to get on with the wiring in the next while.
Hood
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Got the spindle drive and motor fitted and wired today, dont have all the I/O for it hooked up yet but was able to run the spindle from the netbook to see what it sounded like. The motor is only a 3800rpm motor and I would like to make some form of increaser to get the spindle to 6000rpm as per original but that will have to wait. I started the spindle at 100rpm and it was silent so went to 1000 and again fine so cranked it up to the 3800rpm and it was still relatively quiet. I let it run for a good hour at 3800rpm and the spindle housing only got slightly warm so looks like things are fine there :)
I changed tools whilst the spindle was running at 100rpm and 200rpm and that went well, the spindle is meant to be turning so that the spring loaded dog drops into the holder and 200rpm seemed slightly better than the 100 so may have that as my tool change rpm.
Some of the bearings on the holders are knackered and a few noisy, they are non standard bearings and likely wont be cheap but Mark had already replaced one with a thinner (standard) bearing and just made up a spacer out of nylon to take up the 2mm or so difference, I will do the same but will likely use bronze as I have some left over from a job that is about the correct OD :)
The cabinet now has all of the components in it so its just all got to be wired up now, that will take a while I suppose but should hopefully let the paint harden a bit. I got a bit more painted today but I think I will concentrate on the inside next so that it gets the longest time to cure before I am ready to run the machine.
Hood
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Ha, what was that about not bothering to paint it?
Looking good though!
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Nope, wasnt going to until I thought how it would look with new doors and the old paintwork.
I hate painting normally, spraying is fine but with a brush its a nightmare for me. Decided to try a roller though and it makes a nice job and nothing like the mess that spraying does :)
Hood
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Nice work Hood..I have a lathe to paint might try the roller method..what type of roller works best? Where can I get that green two pack its just what I need.
John.
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Just the 100 or 110mm rollers from B&Q or any other place like that, they are the foam ones for gloss.
Dont really know where you would get the paint, I got it from the Boatyard as they bought a load from a place that was closing down.
The stuff I have is made by International and is Intergard 740 and the shade is Reseda Green, RAL is 6011.
Hood
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Excellent and extremely neat wiring job Hood. 8)
( I used to visit Portsmouth quite frequently and always wondered why most of the house's had grey painted fences, gates and garage doors etc. - then it dawned on me - the Dockyard's and 'Battleship Grey' ;D ).
Tweakie.
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Big Mean Green Machine! :)
Brett
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Any decent paint supplier will get/mix the paint for you. Try a search for local Auto/Bodyshop Paint Suppliers. They'll also have lots of paint chips for whatever brand(s) they supply, so you can choose whatever colour you want.
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clicked the wrong button ::)
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Got a bit of the inside painted, looked a bit white at first but after a bit more was painted it started to look ok. Dont suppose it will stay white for long anyway ;D
It seems to be good paint as I had applied some earlier in the week to an uprepared surface just to check it was going to apply and harden ok and when I tried to sand it down the next day it was quite a task, thankfully I had only done about 1m²
Also got the spindle motor running via the CSMIO, couldnt get it to run as a spindle axis at first so tried it set up as an A Axis and got it working, the AutoTune worked very nicely as well. The Spindle Axis option doesnt have AutoTune but as I had already found the numbers needed by setting as an A it was just a case of typing them in and it ran very nicely :)
The reason I couldnt get the spindle axis working at first was I had missed that I had to enter the encoder count and accel in the plugin, I had just assumed it was motor tuning I needed them like you do for an axis.
One good thing about setting it as the A first is it let me see what I can expect when I get as far as setting up the axis. The DROs in Mach are constantly updated from the encoders so even if you disable the drives and wind by hand Mach knows where it is :)
Couple of pics of the inside below, hope to get more done over the weekend . As its deadly stuff and a respirator must be used I will just be doing before I leave each night, that will allow me to get on with some wiring before I paint, well as long as no one notices I am there and needs some work done ;D
Hood
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Oh another nice feature with the spindle axis is you can tell it in the plugin to stop at any angle you wish which could be handy for a tool changer.
Hood
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That thang is getn purdier and purdier every day! ;D
Looking good Hood, looking good.
Nice that Machs DROs update with the encoders even if the drives are diasbled.
Brett
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Hi Hood,
Yes, it's starting to look good.
Didn't know the CSMIO had an Auto Tune option. Sounds great! Also the DROs keeping track of the axes backwards very interesting.
Dan
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Wow, I just caught up a bit, you've really gone to town with her, she looks great, my friend-
Dave
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Thanks guys, always look better in pics than real life I think ;D I still have a lot to paint but after the inside is done then most of it is panels so wont take long to do.
Yes Dan, the Analogue version now has autotuning for the PID and it seems to work very well from what I see. Obviously your drive has to be tuned fairly well first. If however you were using current control in your drive then I would imagine there would be minimal tuning required in it.
I hope to get the Lexium drives completely wired soon so will see how the auto tuning in them is, I will be using speed control I think.
Hood
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Hood,
Curious, would you have been able to use the spindle as an axis if you weren't using the encoder module?
Also, why do you prefer velocity mode? Thought torque mode was the preferred one. Mariss describes it very well in this thread:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo_motors_drives/66964-what_-_torque_mode_position_mode_speed_velocity_mode.html
Dan
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Dan
I am not connected via the Enc module at the moment, so yes it works without it. However from my understanding if rigid tapping is done then it will likely need the Enc module.
Regarding current/velocity modes, lots of differing opinions on which is the best, most industrial CNCs seem to use velocity as far as I can gather so there must be a reason for that.
Hood
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The differing opinions make it very confusing. Even in that thread linked above, some disagree with Mariss, despite his perfectly reasonable explanation.
Dan
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Well got a bit done this week, managed to get the spindle working correctly for a toolchange. In Mach Mill the spindle is stopped with a M6 call and there is nothing you can do about that. Probably for 99.999999999% of mills that is not an issue as they require the spindle to be stopped for a toolchange, the Chiron however requires the spindle to be turning. I tried entering code"m3s200" in the M6 macro but when I did that everything just stopped working, no spindle turn on, no code running etc. I had to press Stop to be able to continue. Graham suggested I might try DoSpinCW() instead and lo and behold it worked. I still however wanted to have the 200rpm in the code so I added code"s200" to the macro and again nothing would work.
Rather strange I thought so I tried simply typing S200 into MDI and then pressing my spindle start button and again nothing at all, took me a while to figure it out. The computer I am using had been on the Bridgeport and I had altered the code in the SpindleSpeed macro and that was the problem, it was waiting for a signal back before it would release Mach to continue with things and as it never got a signal it was just sitting patiently waiting. Luckily I dont have any hair as if I did I wouldnt have had now anyway ;D
Anyway got that working and it seems to be working well, most of the toolholders could do with new bearings but thats for the future. Heres a vid of it changing tools, starts 3800RPM, drops to 200rpm for the tool change then back to 3800rpm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9NfS1ohtyA&list=UUNEcFI4fdD5kV938uchW3sg&index=2
Today I was down at the workshop and decided I had enough wired up to tune the axis. I hooked the laptop up to the X axis Lexium drive and opened the software and after a wee bit of figuring out found the auto tuning and how to get it to work, so let it do its thing, I then went to the control of the Chiron and enabled the drive and the axis took a jolt and faulted, took me a wee while to realise that I needed to invert the encoders direction in the CSMIO plugin. Once I had done that then I was able to try the autotuning in the CSMIO plugin and that seemed to go well so I tested out the X axis, it seemed good so I moved onto the Y. It was easier as I now knew what to do in both drive and CSMIO as regards the tuning.
The autotuning of both the servo drive and the CSMIO seems quite good and certainly good enough for me to start moving the axis around.
I also have the home switches input to the CSMIO and have it set for encoder index pulse homing and it worked great, moves to the switch at 4000mm/min (20% of rapid) hits the switch, backs off at a slower rate then when the switch closes it continues until it sees the index pulse, it then stops and sets the macchine coords DROs to zero in Mach.
Heres a vid of me doing a test simulating a 200mm dia circular pocket at a feed of 15,000mm/min.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI5Kj1BHQgc&list=UUNEcFI4fdD5kV938uchW3sg&index=1
The Analogue CSMIO/IP seems very nice at this point, further testing will be needed but I am extremely happy with it so far.
Hood
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Oh also meant to say I tested the backlash on X axis and its not bad 0.02mm which is not too bad for a 25yr old machine, just hope the Y and Z are as good.
Hood
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Hi Hood,
Good to see it moving and changing tools finally :) The autotuning seems to have done a good job.
Dan
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Ha ha I was reckoning a year to get it going but thats only been 3 or 4 months so I am doing well :)
Hood
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Heres a vid of me doing a test simulating a 200mm dia circular pocket at a feed of 15,000mm/min.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI5Kj1BHQgc&list=UUNEcFI4fdD5kV938uchW3sg&index=1
Hood
Hey Hood, do the drives you are using do the dynamic braking internally ... or is there an external shunt req. similar to the AB's ?
They decell quite nicely !
Nice work ! :)
Thanks,
Russ
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Russ, they are like the DSD-030 drives in that they have internal circuitry and resistors and also have terminals should larger resistors be required.
The micro DSD drives you use do not have the circuitry or resistor so if one is required then you need the additional active shunt module.
Hood
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Guess I was most impressed by the speed in the video.
Realized after posting that G2 or 3 might not be the best demo of accel or decel. (except for at the center of a spiral)
What are your current acc/dece values btw ?l
That's a pretty keen machine for sure.
Thanks Hood,
Russ
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Velocity is set to 20,000mm/min (approx 787 IPM) and accel at the moment is 1200mm/s/s (approx 47 inch/s/s)
Hood
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Wow .... better bolt it to the floor !
Thanks
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Ha ha no need for that, it sits steady, German design so what do you expect ;D
Dont know what the original accels were set at but rapids were 20m/min like I have
Hood
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That looks far too fast for somebody north of the Tay.
If you stick it back on a truck and ship it back below the Forth I'll make sure it's looked after :D
Looking good though.
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Thats some good looking nasty there! ;D
Brett
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That looks far too fast for somebody north of the Tay.
If you stick it back on a truck and ship it back below the Forth I'll make sure it's looked after :D
Looking good though.
No problem mc, just send up the cash to the value of the rapid speed in £'s and I will get a truck arranged :)
Hood
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So that's £1 a m/min? :)
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Forgot you were just a brickie or something like that, the engineering community uses mm as their units ;)
Hood
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My bricklaying makes dry stane dykes look perfectly acceptable for wall papering!
I'm more used to the intracacies of vehicle diagnostics ;)
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Ah ok o units used, just spanners and hammers ;D
Hood
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Hammer is such a harsh misunderstood term. Percussive adjustment tool sounds far better ;)
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Got a few bits and pieces done over the last few days, wee bit more wiring, got some of the lettering applied and also got the doors test fitted. I had to make up a bracket for the doors to mount the runner to, just made it out of some Alu I had and think it will look fine once painted. I am really pleased with the doors, they work well and they will give a good view of the work area. I have to paint the lower part which is 3mm stainless and make up some edges for them and the sides of the enclosure to fill the gap and I also need to make some handles
I also got some LED bulkhead lights which I have fitted but not wired in yet but looks like they will give enough light once the side panels go on.
Hood
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:o Shoooooooooooooooo weeeeeeeeeeeeee! Nice!
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I have to agree, I really like the look and feel of the doors, glad I have a friend that works with glass that made them up for me :)
Hood
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:o Shoooooooooooooooo weeeeeeeeeeeeee! Nice!
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;D Good one!
Brett
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;D
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I'd call that color "turd muddily green", lol
but wasn't that the color of one of those alien's?
just teasing... workmanship looks great
your really pushing getting this thing done by summer's end.
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You have the wrong colour there, its whats known as at the right price green :)
In fact its a very close match to the original colour of both my Computurn and Conect lathes :).
It looks a different shade in every pic I take so really you dont get a good idea of what it actually is like but the one of the front of the doors seems to be the closest
Summer? what does that mean, seem to recall that word from my childhood but havent heard it for years ;D
Hood
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Summer? what does that mean, seem to recall that word from my childhood but havent heard it for years ;D
It's that day usually around May/June, where that big yellow thing appears along with blue skies, and the temperature reaches double figures beginning with a two.
I'd personally just be happy to reach double figures right now!
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Got a bit more done yesterday and today, panels insides have been painted and today I fitted them, will paint the outsides over the next day or two. Also got the bracket I made for the door rail painted and also the lower part of the doors, came out fairly well and its starting to take shape. Still have to get the door seals and with the Easter weekend it will likely be mid week before I get them. Also have to make handles for the doors and also a guideway for the bottom of them, at the moment I just have them resting on delrin pads.
Brett asked me to run the roadrunner at 20m/min to see what it would do. It did it but the metal guard on the head rattles about a bit. There seems to be quite a lot of metalwork missing as there are quite a few brackets and fixing points and nothing to fit to them. I think if all of the original guarding was in place it wouldnt rattle about so much. No big deal really as this speed is impractical for doing any actual cutting as the spindle would need to be a lot faster than even it was originally, however having the rapids as the original machine had is nice.
Here is a video of it doing the roadrunner, make sure you dont have the volume too loud as it might sound like an earthquake :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQ1y6I2GWM
Also a couple of pics of the side panels in place and the doors almost finished.
Hood
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You forgot to put up the adult rated content disclaimer Hood.................... I'm quite sure in some places this could be considered p0rn. I'm lusting for sure! ;D
Sure is looking good Hood! You are gonna love this machine. If you don't, I do. It can even make the green look good! Must admit, looks much better than I thought green could on a machine. Only thing I would change is it's location............ from your shop to mine. :)
Brett
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Really like the doors. Make the machine look real neat! Never seen that big whole glass doors on a machine without a metal cage. What is the way it was originally done? What thickness it the glass?
Dan
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I never saw the original doors, the ones that came with it were just full size polycarb bent to shape and hinged out the way, they were not actually fitted as you couldnt see through them and in fact there was only one with it, the other was missing. Looking at pics of machines on the net it seems they usually had a 30-50mm frame round the edges of the glass.
The glass is 11.5mm thick, it is toughened and laminated glass, think 2 x 5mm toughened sheets with 1.5mm polycarb in between.
Hood
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The glass is 11.5mm thick, it is toughened and laminated glass, think 2 x 5mm toughened sheets with 1.5mm polycarb in between.
Jaysus, ya gonna stick targets on those doors & do a little target practice during long runs? That ought'a take the boredom down a notch or 2!;)
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Got some handles made up and fitted today also got the seals on the doors, had hoped to get a bit more done but..... Tomorrow I hope to get the lower section of the doors done so they seal and then get the last of the wiring done. Not sure if the seals will stand up as they are just vinyl but there are contingency plans in case they dont :)
I have a job in the next week or two that I could do on the Beaver NC5 but would like to do it in the Chiron if I get things done in time.
Pics below of seals and handles.
Hood
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Got a floating tap holder yesterday, it is an ER25 with straight shank. The reason I needed a straight shank is that the Chiron needs special holders so my only options were to buy a proper Chiron floating holder (probably not cheap) or buy a straight shank one and fit it into an endmill holder. It is quite long and having it in the holder makes it even longer but I am in hopes that the CSMIO/IP-A will soon support rigid tapping and I can then dispense with the floating holder, if not then I think I may splash out at some point and buy the proper Chiron one.
Anyway here is a test of it drilling some holes then tapping them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mw811reb58
As you will hear in the video the bearing on the drill holder is quite noisy when unloaded, it is a new bearing that I got from Mark when I bought the Chiron but its a budget bearing and it is not very smooth at all. I will order up some new SKF bearings this week.
Hood
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Very Nice Hood! :)
Brett
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Earlier on today I had a look at another end mill holder, a 32mm dia one, to see if I thought I could bore it out to accept the 46mm dia of the floating holders body. It could likely have been done and I was contemplating it. I then had a look at the Tapmatic one I had for the Beaver mill, it was an integrated 40 taper with the Bilz type quick release holder. I wondered if I could turn down the 40 taper to a 32 straight shank and fit in the endmill holder. Things looked good so earlier this evening I chucked it up and trued it on the manual lathe and turned it down. Got it fited into the endmill holder and I now have an extra 50mm clearance. I also turned the flange down a bit and may actually turn it down to the 32mm also and take some off the front of the end mill holder, that would give me an extra 25mm, I will see whether the extra would be needed before I decide whether to do that or not.
Below is a pic of the two side by side showing the amount of clearance gained.
Hood
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Nice work Hood!
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Good work Hood that CSMIO-IP-A looks really neat! Similar to the Galil in operation but less expensive.
I've probably missed it but are you running the spindle from the C axis as a servo from pin 6, +_ 0-10V or just from the 0-10v output on pin 7 or 8.
I can't understand why the encoder module would be needed for threading if a C axis is available or am I missing something ???
John
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The spindle at this time is not using the Encoder module, it is just connected via an axis input. It is however just like a spindle in Mach, ie speed control only although very accurate, so yes it is using +-10v rather than just the 0-10v .
It is thought that when rigid tapping is done it will possibly need the encoder module so that is why I bought it, if its not needed then I can either sell or use on another machine.
Realy there should not be a need for the encoder module on the CSMIO/IP-A as it already has feedback for the encoders but I think at this time they are trying to keep the plugins for all models the same for ease of writing them. Like a lot of things in Mach3 writing a plugin is a complex thing and from what I gather from people who have done them you have to do all sorts of tricks to achieve your goal.
Mach4 plugin interface should not be so problematic as it has been designed from the outset rather than it being something that has been bolted onto an old programme, we will see ;)
Hood
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Have been thinking about the manifold for the air solenoids and think I have a solution, at least so far it is looking like it will work.
I plan to make a totally new manifold up but I will keep the original one in place as it holds the PCB's that connect the coils to the wiring. I will rotate the coils on the solenoids and also place the solenoids upside down (actually right way up as they are upside down now) and that way I will be able to plug the new manifold in directly to the old one to use the electrical side of things, the air will be removed to the new manifold.
I have the 12 tool solenoids routing done in the manifold but I still have 4 valves to do for cage up/down, drawbar and air blast and then also I will have to fit the pilot operated valves which work the up/down and drawbar but I will likely add them remotely instead of on this main block. Each of the solenoids has 5 ports so in total (not including the pilots) there are 80 ports that need routed in the manifold.
There is no big rush to get this done at the moment as the air leak is not too bad but better to be ready just in case the worst happens ;D
At the moment I have rigged up an air pressure switch so that it opens and closes a solenoid to keep the pressure between 60 and 80 PSI. This saves me having to have the air constantly on from the compressor and also assures that the pressure is never allowed to drop too far. I also have another switch fitted which is set to operate at 40 PSI, this will be fed back to Mach and, if it is seen, an E-Stop will be called and I will get a message telling me the air pressure has been lost.
Anyway a few pics of what I have so far for the manifold.
Hood
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What program are you using for your CAD?
Vince
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Its SW 2004.
Got the lower parts of the doors painted and fitted, had to repaint them as I had welded on some overlap strips to seal.
A friend also made me up some alu channel with 40mm flats attached for the edge of the doors, looks much better and also seals much better than the bubble edging I had before.
Hood
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Did the first parts on the Chiron yesterday afternoon and this morning. All went well, no problems to speak of except the drill holder is rubbing a bit on the spindles dog and a few squeaks and creaks from the way covers.
Pics below of the parts and also a link to a video.
http://youtu.be/JS9mh_iMing
Very happy with the machine so far and especially the CSMIO/IP-A, not forgetting Mach of course but I have always been happy with that, well except for the things I want in Turn ;)
Will be even better when I get a new air manifold made and thus get rid of the air leaks.
Hood
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That is such a cool machine!! And you saved/improved it.
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Hi Hood,
Very nice! Enjoyed watching the machine running and changing the tools. Like how the table doesn't move and the head is that's moving. Thanks for the video.
Also, have to note once again your wiring and routing skills!
Dan
Thanks for
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I noticed in the refection from your pretty doors that your equipment seems to be sitting on a brick floor.
How do level your and maintain stability?
With your north Scottish weather and proximity to the sea, the floor must be moving all the time.
I have to agree Dan, cabinet is clean and anal. ;-)
Was surprised no provisional space for a 4th axis.
Glad to see it is starting to generate revenue.
Great job Robin
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Thanks for the comments.
The trunking in the cabinet can hide a multitude of sins ;D
The floor in the workshop is concrete, that is outside you are seeing in the reflection. The Chiron is right at the door to the workshop so when the workshop door got opened when the guy, I was making the parts for , came in, you could see outside reflected in the machines doors.
Hood
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Very Nice Hood!, Nice all around! Makes me jealous!
Brett
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That's awesome stuff Hood! You've really put allot of work into it, and it has certainly paid off. Two thumbs up. The spindle sounds really nice and quiet. That machine reminds me of those tentacled machines in "The Matrix".
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Thanks again for the comments.
Yes the spindle sounds really good, that is a relief to me as I was unsure about it. I hope to be able to build in some sort of gearing soon to get the rpm to 6000 or so but for now that can wait.
Hood
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Oh also forgot to reply to this one
Was surprised no provisional space for a 4th axis.
There is a big area still unused just below the main electrical cabinet. It originally housed the transformer but now is just full of chucks and old lathe turrets etc until I get my workshop tidied up a bit and find some place to put them.
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There is a big area still unused just below the main electrical cabinet
Now wait just a minute......... now your talking about my space. Where will I put my sleeping bag if you go and fill it up with drives and such? I just got a mansion with new sliding glass doors, new paint, upgraded wiring and expanded sleeping quarters...... so I thought. Life just isn't fair. :'(
;D
Brett
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You wont have time for sleeping, you will too busy tidying up the workshop and if you do a good job I may let you do a couple of spreadsheets :-)
Hood
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;D Your too kind Hood.
Brett
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Been doing a bit of tidying as the workshop has been much more of a mess than its normal mess ;D
Space is limited but I wanted to get something set up as close as possible to the control panel and height setter as I could for the collet holders. I made up a plate out of some 10mm steel plate I had and have enough storage for 8 tool holders plus one place that has dogs welded so I can loosen/tighten collets, it doesnt take up too much room and should work out well. Will paint it later as I still have a few bits and pieces to paint but will wait until everything is ready so that I dont have to mess with mixing the two pack paint a few times.
Hood
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Nice!
Dan
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Nah, it's just an excuse to show off all those spare drives and motors he's hoarded. ::)
I hear there's a Discovery Channel trailer parked beside his shop....they're shooting a new reality show: "Scottish Servo Hoarders." ®
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Just as long as they stick to the workshop and dont look in the spare room in the house, they would be a week or more filming there ;)
Hood
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Very Nice Hood! That will be handy as a side pocket. :)
Brett
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Might want to put some cushion between the tool holder and the pocket. Machine vibration may chew up your tool holder rubbing against the steel pocket.
(;-) TP
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Not sure if that would be a problem Terry, the tool holders are hardened, the steel holder is just mild steel so rather soft. I will be sure to monitor it though and if I it looks to be the case I will make up some Delrin inserts.
Hood
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If I can find them I will show you the damage it can cause to a tool holder over time.
Been there, (;-) TP
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Well Terry, the more I thought about it the more I thought it not worth taking a risk. The holders for the Chiron are all specific to Chiron so they are not common second hand and not cheap new. Decided to take out the holes in the plate to 52.5mm so the holders sit right down on the outer race of the bearings.
Also got my probe adapted so it fits into the chirons spindle. I only ever use it for finding edges or centres and not as an auto probe although I do have that functionality built in if I ever decide to. When I made it I had it powered from a coin battery and a LED is lit and goes out when tripped. I also have a jack plug socket on it which disconnects the battery and that means I can shove 24v through it if I decide to connect up as a probe via Mach, may do that at some point in time but for now it works well the way I use it.
Hood
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Just tested out the newly implemented rigid tapping with the CSMIO/IP-A controller. Tapping M6 in mild steel at 300rpm and reversing out at 600rpm.
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,24610.0.html
Hood
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Hi Hood,
That's nice! The change log says they have rewritten the MPG code. Do you feel any difference?
Dan
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No I think the change log may actually reflect the changes they have been doing since the log was last updated.
However I did find that when I set my encoder outputs from the drive to 15,000ppr instead of 4096 the motion is much improved and although not as sweet as it was in earlier versions it is definitely still usable and still much better than with the parallel port or the SmoothStepper.
Hood
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The tools on the Chiron do not reach down to the table, well long ones will but the shorter ones such as milling cutters are as much as 75mm higher when the Z is fully down. I do quite a lot of parts made from sheet material and it is often not practical to hold it in a vice.
The table is bolted to the main bed via 4 bolts and I could quite eaily have raised the table, that however would have presented problems when using the vice or the chuck as it would have seriously reduced the Z travel when using the vice/chuck.
I decided the best option was to get a sub table, I hunted around and found a few cast iron ones with T-Slots but they were either too expensive or the sellers did not get back to me. I then priced up some cast aluminium tool plate and it was cheaper than I had expected. I got a piece of 40mm thick by 375mm wide and 500mm long for £141. I cut two bits off the end to make the ends and bored and tapped and fitted them then drilled and tapped 36 x M10 holes for clamping bolts. Sadly I didnt have the camera handy to take a video while I was doing it (only took about 10 minutes) but everything worked as expected :)
The tooling plate is machined both sides and is meant to be within +/- 0.1mm so I was expecting I would have to face it. When I got it however I measured it and the max variation I could measure was less than 0.01mm, in fact he digital mic showed it to be within 0.002mm, how accurate the mic is I cant say so I called it less than 0.01mm.
Anyway today I decided to use the probe to test all over the surface and I have a variance of 0.01 mm or less so I have decided not to bother surfacing it.
Pic below of the plate, it is 420mm wide and 375mm deep. That way I can have a vice or a chuck to one side and have the plate fixed in place also. I may at some point get a full sized plate and make another up but I think this will suffice for the majority of jobs I do.
Hood
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HIYA Hood, IF you plan to leave it attatched make sure you grease the bottom of the legs before you anchor it down. I use electrical grease here. Alum and iron do not always get along in certain conditions and it will eat into the table top.
On my old BP you can still see where the sub table was bolted down for years. It is etched into the table where it sat.
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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Nice addition, Hood, I do a lot of sheet type parts and I love having a tooling plate as well.
Dave
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Terry,
I usually just use some waylube, seems to work well, I have had Alu jigs sitting on machine tables for long times and no real problems.
Dave, only thing is I will be almost as terrified of going through and marking it as I would the actual table ;D
Hood
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Dave, only thing is I will be almost as terrified of going through and marking it as I would the actual table ;D
Hood
I hear ya, it's painful at first, but you get over it and keeping working ;)
Dave
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;D
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Looks real nice Hood. It appears to be what is commonly referred to as "mic 6" plate around here. Good stuff. I believe it is cast, and blanchard ground. Did the people that sold it to you know what it was? It usually cost a premium, i thought.
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The material I got was called ACP 5080 Almac 500 according to my receipt but Mic6, EcoCast and a few others are the names I have seen it called, suppose they are basically just brand names for it.
Yes they knew what it was and is at a premium compared to normal rolled, I was still pleasantly surprised at the price though . A few places I had looked at online had the prices at almost double so I was expecting just a bit less when I emailed my supplier. It came in a lot cheaper so I was happy :) I do seem to get a very good price for materials from them normally (a lot cheaper than I used to get from Aalco) and looks like this was no exception, I buy, probably, £10,000 plus of Stainless and Alu from them a year.
Hood
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Got some more tool holders last weekend. Originally Mark had said he thought there were about 30 but when we looked there were only 18. A week or two back a mutual friend was at Marks and got a further 12 holders and a cylinder and arm that Mark had found, so that takes the total up to 30 now :)
Only two had bearings and these were knackered so I ordered another 12 bearings, also ordered some pull studs for Germany (£4.50 each is cheaper than I could make them for) but still have to get some ER32 collet nuts for them, the place I usually get them from is out of stock at the moment.
I had previously made up the plate to hold the 6 extra holders I had at the time but now with getting an extra 12 I needed to make up something else. Space is very limited in my workshop, especially in the area where the Chiron is, so I made up a rack and mounted it to the big door of the workshop. It is out of the way there but also close to hand so it is the ideal place. I made the plates up on the Chiron (any excuse to use it :) ) using the sub table I had made to clamp them to.
Hood
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Even the extra tool rack is nice enough to make a fella jealous! ;D First class all the way. I was expecting no less though so I'm not surprised, impressed but not surprised.
Brett
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Some people lead a sheltered life and are easily impressed ;)
Hood
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Looks great Hood, you can never have too much storage area for cutters and such.
Dave
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Dave, I know, just dont have much space in the workshop at all, its the wrong shape for CNC machines, about 50ft long but only about 13ft wide.
Hood
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crap quality as I only had my old phone but here is a video showing the accuracy of the CSMIO/IP-A when homing to the encoders index.
I am using a Haimer 3D Taster and I move onto my previously set XYZ0. I then jog away on X then reference the machine, rapid to X10Y0 then to Z0. Finally I do a feed move to X0, as you will see (hopefully as quality is crap as mentioned) the needle moving exactly to zero, ie spindle directly over edge of vice.
That also shows a great thing about the 3 D Taster as when the needle reads zero the spindle is directly over the work so no having to subtract/add the radius of the probe tip :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCwJsf7W8M
Hood
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Excellent work Hood.
I think rapid moves with the Haimer in the chuck is real scary to watch. ;D
Tweakie.
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;D
They are not cheap that is for sure but you only live once so what the hell ;D
Hood
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Excellent work Hood.
I think rapid moves with the Haimer in the chuck is real scary to watch. ;D
Tweakie.
I know Tweakie. Nearly gave me a heart-a-stroke! ;D
Brett
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Have redone the vid with the camera this time, bit better quality.
http://youtu.be/7jpnjLVKZN4
Hood
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Thanks Hood. Think the Haimer doesn't have sufficient resolution to show the true homing accuracy ;)
Dan
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Yes and no Dan :)
The needle can be seen to be at exactly the same position each time and that tells me that both the Haimer and the Index homing are very accurate :)
Hood
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Well I got a chance the last week to start machining a new block for the valves, all went well and it looked good, see pics below.
I needed one of the valves in the centre as it was leaking quite badly, I had been watching eBay ever since I got the Chiron but have not seen any so decided just to bite the bullet and get a new one from Festo. Thats when the problems started, they could find no reference to the part number at all and they reckoned it must have been a special made for Chiron, they didnt have anything that was a direct replacement either and suggested I contact Chiron to see if they had one. I had already been in touch with Chiron regarding the spindle/drawbar/bellevilles and they had told me they had no spares at all for the machine as it was so old, they couldnt even help me out with a manual or any info about the machine, that was quite a surprise as I thought German Companies were supposed to be super eficient :D
Anyway that was a big problem and I had to think of something else. I could have chopped the block in two and removed the centre portion and got some other valves to do the job but I decided to just scrap the valves and go with others. I had previously purchased some SMC valves and manifolds from eBay but was a few short, I found some more on USA eBay so ordered them and they arrived on Friday.
I set to work welding up a plate to replace the original manifold and machined two blocks to hold the two big cassette valve and then screwed the SMC manifold to it. The SMC valves are 1/3 the size of the old Festo ones and have more flow.
I got things fitted yesterday and tested out and all is working well, today I finished off rewiring everything and tidying up the pipework a bit, still have a small leak from one of the cassette valves but it is minimal compared to all the leaks before and I can get a new cassette valve so no problems there :)
Previously the compressor had been cutting in every 5 minutes, now it is over an hour unless of course I am doing tool changes.
Very happy with the way things have gone :)
Hood
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Here are the pics of the new valves and also the pipework from the front, I have also attached a pic of the original setup.
Hood
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Fantastic to see the machine working.
I bought one too. Has all the electronics connected.
I want to keep the Siemens drives and use Mach to control it.
I will still find a suitable break out board.
Your blog has been an excellent lead into my rebuild.
Thanks for all the info.
Well done
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If keeping the original Siemens drives you will need a controller capable of analogue output such as the CSMIO/IP-A that I use. I am very happy with the CSMIO, it is definitely the best controller I have used with Mach so far.
Hood
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I will go the route you have taken and like what you have done with the machine.
I paid about 1200 pounds for the one I bought.
Seems it switched on, but as a previous person said, no one knows how to sort the Siemens units.
I do PLC programming for a living and happen to have two DL06 units. And a touch screen. To will link the touch screen to the PLC for manual tool changes and use Mach for control. I have the screen lying around
I stayed in Scotland for two years in 96. lovely place.
The unit looks complete bar some of the tool changer arms missing. It has stood for about three years without power.
The Siemens stuff all looks good, so dont want to chuck it all out. Will replace all the caps in the drives as they go dry after so many years standing.
Have you done more parts on the machine?
Loved the first bits you made.
What CAM software did you use?
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Hey Hood,
Surely you must have a good feeling about the machine. Lots of work,time, and money but it is great when a plan comes together and the shop has new capability.
RICH
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Hi Hood,
You mention the Mach software writes via serial to the PLC
Where do you set that up in Mach?
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Rudker
I use it almost daily but usually just simple 2D parts in stainless and alu although I have done some more complex stuff, for example I made prototypes for some sort of adjustable sights for rifles, see pics below.
I now use BobCAD but previously I either just hand coded or used a neighbours SolidCAM, I do own Dolphin Mill and Lathe but only ever used the Lathe part of it. I now use BobCAD for both Mill and Lathe.
I have the ladder I did for the DL06 if you think it may help, although if you do that for a living you will likely make a better one than I did anyway ;D
The serial Modbus I used was the Non-Plugin version and you enable it from Config then Ports and Pins, you just choose the Modbus I/O support option. You can then get to the actual setup from Function Configs menu and then Setup Serial Modbus Control.
Rich, yes I am loving the Chiron, especially the toolchanger, makes life really simple and having made the offline tool height setter it is really easy to set up new tools or even replace worn ones.
I spend around about £2500 total on the Chiron including the initial purchase of it and 30 tool holders. My time was free as it was done in evenings and weekends so I am not counting that ;D
Hood
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Hi,
Would love a copy of the code. Will use it as a start so that I can get the tool changer to work.
How does the off line tool setter work?
Is there an online version?
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Hi,
Have you thought of using the 4th axis?
Does Mach 3 support the 4th?
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The toolsetter is basically a profile rail that has a glass scale attached to it. I have it wired into the CSMIO via the Enc module and I have a button on screen that zeros the position when the pointer is fully down. I then move the pointer up, place a tool under and let the pointer rest on the tool. I then press another screen button in Mach, it asks me the tool number and then automatically enters the offset into the tool table.
I dont have a 4th axis yet but eventually will get one made up. Mach can support up to 6 axis plus a spindle and the CSMIO/IP-A also can.
I have attached a pic of the tool setting page I made up and also a pic of the tool setter (wasnt quite complete as no pointer )
On the tool setting page I have buttons to manually load a tool and to the right I have ones that will lower a tool so I can replace a holder in the arms.
Zipped files for the ladder are attached, I think that is the correct ones, I will check tomorrow if I remember ::).
Hood
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Thanks for the ladder logic. I will check tomorrow how it works.
How long have you been doing all this work? Looks like a lot of time went into working out the Mach software and the setting up of your shop.
Thanks for all the ideas and help so far.
I get visit my machine this week.
out of interest, how tall is the machine when at its lowest setting.
I need to get mine into a garage door
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I have been using Mach for many years, started off on Mach2 and a converted manual Bridgeport, then moved on to a CNC Bridgeport, both steppers. Then the big lathe (Churchill Computurn 290) with servos. Next was a coil winder I made, it has steppers, then a Beaver NC5 knee mill with servos, a wee Conect 121 lathe with servos and lastly the Chiron, again with servos. The Chiron is the only one using analogue command for the servos but when Mach4 Turn is released and hopefully the small issue with the CSMIO and Lathe threading is resolved (Mach3 issue, not CSMIO) then the Computurn Lathe will be getting an IP-A and I will use analogue command to the servo drives as they are capable of step/dir or analogue.
If I remember I will measure tomorrow. You will likely have to remove the motor and the Igus chain if the door is low.
Hood
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I think that is the wrong ladder, I will attach the one from the machine tomorrow.
Hood
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Are you running a 32 bit or 63 bit with the CSMIO hardware?
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If you release the Igus chain from the Z axis you should be able to get the height to 2045mm.
I am using XP 32 Bit but using a 64bit OS is not a problem with Mach and an external controller.
I have attached the ladder again, this has a newer date so should be the one I am using.
Hood
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Thanks for the code.
I want to skip off work now and go look at the machine, but the boss watches the door.
Do you run a business doing upgrades or machine work for people?
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I work for myself, most of my work is repair and fabrication and refit of fishing boats and I use the machines to make parts for doing that.
Hood
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Thanks for the code. Looks good.
I will use it once I have the machine sorted.
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This is the VB that I have in the M6Start macro, M6End is empty.
'Toolchange macro for Chiron FZ12S
Code "G53G0Y310Z-5M3S200"
While IsMoving()
Wend
SetTool =GetSelectedTool()
tool = GetSelectedTool() Mod 12
If Tool = 0 Then
Tool = 12
End If
Do
Call SetModOutput (tool,1)
If GetInput (tool) Then Exit Do
Sleep 10
Loop
Call SetModOutput (tool,0)
SetCurrentTool( SetTool )
Hood
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BTW do you have a parts manual or maintenance manual for the Chiron?
Hood
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I got a full drawings of the unit, electrical and mechanical.
There is also a book on programing the Sinumerik unit
Also the instruction manual.
I could get it scanned for you into PDF.
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I would really appreciate the mechanical drawings if it wasnt too much hassle to get them scanned.
Hood
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I will bring them to work and see if I can get them scanned.
Will email once I have a copy.
Went to look at the Chiron and picked up all the arbours. There is a full set for the machine. Two are still installed. The others where lose.
Looks all intact and complete except for arms on the tool changer head.
Got a photo of the tool changer if you want to see
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All pics are good :)
And appreciate the effort for the drawings, if any costs are incurred let me know and I can paypal you.
Hood
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I opened the cabinet door of the machine and found the original set up files in paper tape version.
All the set up variables are there. Everything..
But all in tape. So wont be using that.
I will sell the Sinumerik unit as coming from a working machine.
Will post photos of the tape
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What year and model is the Chiron you have?
Hood
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The machine I have is the FZ12S made in 1987 and tested in 1988.
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Same year and model as mine :)
Hood
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Probably stood next to each other at the factory.
Mine has the commissioning agent signature in the middle of the panel above the VSD
I am trying to scan the manual, but the email section of the printer isn't working. Wish they did manuals like that for all new machines.
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My machines number is 101-36, any idea of yours?
I tried to get a manual from Chiron but drew a blank, would be great if you could get me the mechanical drawings, but if not its no problem.
Hood
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Mine is 102-92.
So just a few machines apart.
I will get the manual scanned as soon as the machine is fixed.
I also want to keep a copy with me to look at.
A Ralf Fleck from Chiron DE is going to register me as a end user, so hope this helps in getting support in the future.
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Chiron UK seemingly contacted Chiron Germany and they said there were no spares available for my machine with the exception of release fingers, or something like that. What they are I am not sure.
If you get a chance to look at the drawings could you see if it has the bearing numbers for the ends of the ballscrews please. My X axis has a bit of backlash (0.02mm) and I am thinking it will be the bearings, the Y has under 0.01mm backlash and Z doesnt seem to have much at all.
Does your toolchanger have the lower cover? mine just has the steel upper part and I dont really know what the lower part looks like.
Hood
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My machine also has a missing cover on the bottom.
The surond for the tool changer is there.
I have all the cylinders on the bench and want to test for air leaks.
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Hello, i know its was a long time ago for this Post, but i have same problem with my Fz12... can you share the CAD files and what do you also used of vale? Thank a lot for all Help! THANk and regards from germany