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Author Topic: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course  (Read 408527 times)

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Offline simpson36

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #470 on: January 24, 2013, 10:19:32 AM »
Steve,

"The soda can is just fore scale . . I did not make that part." - I was REALLY impressed, until I read that....  :-)

Alright then, I retract me previous statement. I made the soda can . .  oh, and I invented the internet. That Gore guy just wants to steal my thunder.


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On the airflow control - look at automotive idle air control valves.  I'm not sure what the airflow range is, but the functionality is exactly what you need, and they're pretty cheap.  I suspect they could be modified for lower flow, if necessary.

You DO know that IAC are steppers don't you? I do HATE steppers, you know that too right?
OK seriously that is an excellent suggestion and I have handfuls of those things around here from some Crossfire Fuel injection work I used to do. For car buffs with too much time on their hands, this may be an interesting read:
http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101038

IAC are driven directly off the ECM so it should be very doable and they are easy to mount, so I don't see much of a problem using those. Great suggestion . . .  but I still invented the internet, so there.


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Those are nice little solenoids you're using.  Where do you get those?  What do they cost?  I'll probably need some on the new 12-tool fixed carousel ATC I'm designing for my new machine.  All the ones I've found so far are stupid expensive.

Regards,
Ray L.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#solenoids/=l6bf8u   scroll down to sealed

Offline simpson36

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #471 on: January 24, 2013, 10:36:43 AM »
OK last post for a while. I have another project hat cropped up so I'll be away from this project for about another 30 days.

Saving the best for last, here is the spindle lock for the BT30. For my current 'Franken mill', I just grabbed one of the calipers for my 4th axis and stuck it on the mill head. It works great even though it is a bit ghetto.

I had planned to use one for this project also, but alas there was no way to get it to coexist with the large diameter spindle cartridge. So back to the drawgin board for a one-off custom caliper for the BT30 project. Basically it is just a modification to the InTurn™ articulated pneumatic caliper with a longer arm to move the cylinder out away from the cartridge tube . .  which required a longer stroke cylinder, a thicker body . .  and so on down the line. It is a very cool part, I think, but I just stole if from the InTurn™, so it's not really 'new' new.

What is new if the sensor in the form of yet another little sealed limit switch that bears on the caliper arm. This will report that the caliper is either active or that is is open. The cylinder is removed in the last two photos.







Offline BR549

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #472 on: January 24, 2013, 11:38:07 AM »
The real problem with the Coke can is it should have been a PEPSI throwback instead of COKE ZERO.  You cannot expect a high powered INTURN to run on unleaded. It needs a can of HIGHTEST PEPSI.

(;-) TP
Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #473 on: January 26, 2013, 02:27:38 PM »
I think Steve and I need to have another contest, to see if he can finish his *first* ATC before I finish my *second* one!  :-)  I've got the design done, just waiting on the new machine to arrive so I can get the final mounting dimensions.  This time I've gone with a very compact. fixed 12-tool carousel (vs 10 for my first ATC), mounted alongside the column - well out of the way of the user (never like having the carousel hanging next to the head....).  A high-speed transfer arm will move the tools back and forth quickly (not nearly as quickly as Steve's, but much faster than my current one).  I have an active "gripper" for TTS tools on the transfer arm, so I can rotate the arm pretty much as fast as I want, with no worries about the tool flying off.  The arm will be driven by a servo, so smooth, rapid motion should be very easy to achieve.  I'm keeping the Geneva mechanism, but re-designed it to internal, rather than external, Geneva for much smoother motion.  All told, only two small motors, and three very small air cylinders to perform all the motion.  One side-benefit is this design will be trivial to adapt to virtually any milling machine from an X2 to a full-size VMC, with only two very simple design changes - the bracket that attaches the whole thing to the column, and the length of the transfer arm.  Nothing else would have to change.  It would even possible to make a "universal" kit that could be adapted to almost any machine without any machining, other than drilling some mounting holes on the column.

Regards,
Ray L.
Regards,
Ray L.
Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #474 on: January 26, 2013, 05:22:57 PM »
Nice work Ray.
It sounds like you and Steve are very busy.

Mike
We never have the time or money to do it right the first time, but we somehow manage to do it twice and then spend the money to get it right.

Offline simpson36

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #475 on: February 03, 2013, 02:03:27 PM »
I am currently working on the sensors and control software. The last sensors are for the arm up/down and I could find no way to get those on the shaft that satisfied me. It is more complicated than it looks because the shaft will be covered by a rubber corrugated bellows below the gearbox and by either the same bellows or just a cover tube between the air cyl and the gearbox . .  and of course the whole shaft rotates. Also I'm not crazy about the air cyl being mounted separately from the gearbox. So I had to go on hold with that until I get a new cylinder with position sensors on the cylinder itself. I have the cylinder on the way and I plan to mount it on a tube supported by the gearbox.

My secondary task was working on the software, but I am building on top of the InTurn™ motor controller and in a moment of apparent masochism, I reasoned that this was a good time to do a major upgrade to the controller and launched into that. Among other things, I changed the interface from serial modbus to plug-in modbus . .  which took more than a few minutes.  :P  THEN, after a few brewskies, it seemed sensible to move my own development box to TCP modbus. After all the setup on MACH's side is similar to the plug-in serial, right? Well, in my setup, the "PLC" runs the modbus slave, so moving from 'serial anything' to TCP was a rewrite of a significant part of the code.

Those are my excuses. If I come up with better ones, I shall post them separately. The work is completed and working now, but apparently too late as it seems the tortoise has crossed the line.

So, Ray, if you are declaring your 'first' ATC completed including all sensors and controls, then all I can say is CONGRATULATIONS and where do I send the beer  :)

I accept your challenge to finish my first before you finish your second. However, I counter challenge you to see who is the first to have a completed and sold version operating in the field. I believe I have the drop on you there.  :-X

Anyway, at the time you took the checkered flag, I was on this lap: Note that the carousel gearbox can be rotated in 90 degree increments and the drive motor will be tucked in at final assembly. It is flying out there now to make the thing easier to work on and observe the actions.



Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #476 on: February 03, 2013, 02:39:25 PM »
I am currently working on the sensors and control software. The last sensors are for the arm up/down and I could find no way to get those on the shaft that satisfied me. It is more complicated than it looks because the shaft will be covered by a rubber corrugated bellows below the gearbox and by either the same bellows or just a cover tube between the air cyl and the gearbox . .  and of course the whole shaft rotates. Also I'm not crazy about the air cyl being mounted separately from the gearbox. So I had to go on hold with that until I get a new cylinder with position sensors on the cylinder itself. I have the cylinder on the way and I plan to mount it on a tube supported by the gearbox.

My secondary task was working on the software, but I am building on top of the InTurn™ motor controller and in a moment of apparent masochism, I reasoned that this was a good time to do a major upgrade to the controller and launched into that. Among other things, I changed the interface from serial modbus to plug-in modbus . .  which took more than a few minutes.  :P  THEN, after a few brewskies, it seemed sensible to move my own development box to TCP modbus. After all the setup on MACH's side is similar to the plug-in serial, right? Well, in my setup, the "PLC" runs the modbus slave, so moving from 'serial anything' to TCP was a rewrite of a significant part of the code.

Those are my excuses. If I come up with better ones, I shall post them separately. The work is completed and working now, but apparently too late as it seems the tortoise has crossed the line.

So, Ray, if you are declaring your 'first' ATC completed including all sensors and controls, then all I can say is CONGRATULATIONS and where do I send the beer  :)

I accept your challenge to finish my first before you finish your second. However, I counter challenge you to see who is the first to have a completed and sold version operating in the field. I believe I have the drop on you there.  :-X

Anyway, at the time you took the checkered flag, I was on this lap: Note that the carousel gearbox can be rotated in 90 degree increments and the drive motor will be tucked in at final assembly. It is flying out there now to make the thing easier to work on and observe the actions.


Steve,

Wow!  That is an impressive bit of machinery.  I don't understand it....  But I'm sure it'll make sense when you post the first video!   :-)

I declared by first ATC "done" some time ago, and it's been in-service for a month or more, with no problems so far.  The only "missing" piece, briefly, was spindle "stopped" sensing, which is now provided by the VFD.

My second ATC (still TTS, but could very easily accommodate 30-taper with pretty minor changes) is now completely designed, and I'm busy sourcing components, and doing CAM.  If you beat me to the first "sold" unit, it won't be by very much!  I'm actually designing this one for a machine manufacturer, and designed it specifically to be almost trivial to adapt for virtually ANY machine by changing only the mounting brackets and the length of the tool transfer arm, which can easily be made adjustable length.  Not hardly as impressive as yours, but obviously aimed at a very different market.  I actually think it's about the best work I've ever done - a number of things I've never seen done the way I did them, which is the secret to the very low cost.  It can easily sell for FAR less than any ATC of comparable capacity and performance I've ever seen.  And, it does not really sacrifice performance either - I expect complete toolchanges to be under 10 seconds, from spindle stop to spindle start, compared to 20 seconds on my current one.  The motor-driven PDB is *tiny* - only a 2" x 3.5" footprint, 9" tall, but capable of well over 30+ ft-lbs drawbar torque (actually, it's capable of generating enough torque to just twist the drawbar right off...), but MUCH faster than my current one.  The ATC is 12-tools, with a fixed carousel, only 10" in diameter, and a high-speed tool transfer arm (relatively speaking - not in the same league as yours!).  The PDB, carousel, and transfer arm are all servo-driven, and there are sensors on *everything*, so virtually any fault will be detectable.  Only one air cylinder in the whole thing, a small one at that, to operate the "lift" that inserts/removes tools to/from the spindle.  Sensors include carousel position, transfer arm position, transfer arm tool "claw" lock sensor, transfer arm "lift" position, voltage and current for all the servo motors, and more.  With luck, the prototype will be done sometime in March.  Can't start fabrication until I complete the current build (biggest to date) of one of my other products.

When do we get video?

Regards,
Ray L.
Regards,
Ray L.

Offline BR549

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #477 on: February 03, 2013, 04:27:44 PM »
NIce design Steve,   Might want to check your camera though it seems to have a splotch of grey paint on the lense (;-)

(;-) TP

Offline simpson36

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #478 on: February 03, 2013, 05:26:54 PM »
NIce design Steve,   Might want to check your camera though it seems to have a splotch of grey paint on the lense (;-)

(;-) TP

Too funny!  Thanks for the heads up.  I'll have to get that lense checked out.  ;)

Offline simpson36

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #479 on: February 03, 2013, 05:51:00 PM »

I declared by first ATC "done" some time ago, and it's been in-service for a month or more, with no problems so far.  The only "missing" piece, briefly, was spindle "stopped" sensing, which is now provided by the VFD.

OK that 'missing sensor' was the last status I knew of.  I hereby concede defeat. Just need to know where to send the beer.

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My second ATC (still TTS, but could very easily accommodate 30-taper with pretty minor changes)


This will be quite a challenge, I would think.  Your TTS based design does not seem capable of gripping a stud. You must have something up your sleeve again.

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If you beat me to the first "sold" unit, it won't be by very much!


Too late!  My first and second BT30 spindle prototypes are both sold and the ATC is sold, including the entire new head. Pretty much the whole setup as you see on the test stand will be installed on a new mill as part of a larger project.

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 I'm actually designing this one for a machine manufacturer, and designed it specifically to be almost trivial to adapt for virtually ANY machine by changing only the mounting brackets and the length of the tool transfer arm, which can easily be made adjustable length.  Not hardly as impressive as yours, but obviously aimed at a very different market.  I actually think it's about the best work I've ever done - a number of things I've never seen done the way I did them, which is the secret to the very low cost.  It can easily sell for FAR less than any ATC of comparable capacity and performance I've ever seen.  And, it does not really sacrifice performance either - I expect complete toolchanges to be under 10 seconds, from spindle stop to spindle start, compared to 20 seconds on my current one.  The motor-driven PDB is *tiny* - only a 2" x 3.5" footprint, 9" tall, but capable of well over 30+ ft-lbs drawbar torque (actually, it's capable of generating enough torque to just twist the drawbar right off...), but MUCH faster than my current one.  The ATC is 12-tools, with a fixed carousel, only 10" in diameter, and a high-speed tool transfer arm (relatively speaking - not in the same league as yours!).  The PDB, carousel, and transfer arm are all servo-driven, and there are sensors on *everything*, so virtually any fault will be detectable.  Only one air cylinder in the whole thing, a small one at that, to operate the "lift" that inserts/removes tools to/from the spindle.  Sensors include carousel position, transfer arm position, transfer arm tool "claw" lock sensor, transfer arm "lift" position, voltage and current for all the servo motors, and more.  With luck, the prototype will be done sometime in March.  Can't start fabrication until I complete the current build (biggest to date) of one of my other products.


Speaking of 'air speed' I did some research and came up with a number of digitally controlled presure regulators, so I will be going that way instead of messing with an automotice IAC. A very clever solution though, in any case.

I do hope you plan to stick around and share this with the audience. Have you noticed the number of reads this thread has amassed? Besides,  I need you good advice as well as others. I'm not so clever really. I just listen when smart people talk. I have ordered a Kflop, so you're not getting rid of me any time soon.

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When do we get video?

Regards,
Ray L.

I'm also finishing up a project, and there is another small one right behind it, so it will be a couple of weeks before I can get the rest of the ATC software done and make a video of the testing. As I mentioned, I am changing the arrangement of the air cylinder that actuates the vertical arm movement, so I will probably be covering that with photos before I do a video. Finishing the ATC is actually now a part of the upcoming large project, so while it was going to be on hold for a couple of  months, now it will get lots of attention.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 05:54:43 PM by simpson36 »