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Author Topic: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course  (Read 400519 times)

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Offline poppabear

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #400 on: December 30, 2012, 08:21:39 PM »
Quote
Interesting. If I read between the lines in your video description, things did not go well with Tormach on this project.

I have it in writing from Tormach's engineering manager that their MACH software is 'locked down' because Tormach does not believe users should be allowed access the 'flakey' MACH software in their own systems for fear they will mess up the 'motor parameters'.

As you know, in MACH parlance, 'locked down' versions have nothing to do with keeping users out and there are no motor parameters in MACH. These statements indicate to me an unfamiliarity with MACH which lead me to speculate that Tormach uses outside sources for some or all of their development. You have now confirmed that.

You are correct, they took many of my findings, and ideas directly from the CNC Zone thread when I released the ongoing project, then said, "Oh, look what our engineers came up with.." What a crock of Poop.  You will also find that they have a "Flash Screen", that Jay did, and guess what no real mention of him as the guy behind it.

I just find it funny that my original prototype, video, was removed somehow from Google Video, and all the links to that video, on even the thread on this site, was renamed, and remapped to their ATC videos.....  That would require someone at moderator/admistrator of above (or a hacker), to modify mine and other post.

Noticed some similar tampering with post on the CNC Zone as well.......... Just saying....

Also, just an FYI, there is an ".exe" in the Tormach profile that when you run it, it brings up the standard Mach3 profile, all you need to do on an install if you want to "Lock Out"
users from motor profiles etc. is to use a Hex editor and remove the menu access objects. Not hard at all.

Like you Ray, I don't appreciate how they treat folks like you, and me for that matter.
Having said that, I don't blame them for locking out their profiles/screens from curious buyers due to support issues, but on the other other hand, I don't think
you or anyone else should be talked down to either. There where many, many witnesses to my building my prototype at the CNC zone, along with my ideas for improvements and ect.
Here is the REAL kicker, I was asked to keep the Production ATC under 3K they said no one would pay more than that, so I cut out alot of bells/whistles to keep labor/cost down.
Then Blammo, they come out with there 6K ATC (including the Draw bar device, since that is also part of the complete package)...... Funny how that works isn't it.

Very similar deal happened when I designed the CNC Keys project for another manufacture, not a single mention on their website either, and THAT is why I stopped development on that project. Well enough of my griping, the summery of all of this is this, make sure when your dealing with these companies that you get the ENTIRE deal in writing UPFRONT, any changes or "other directions" also get in writing. My hope is you won't have to go down this road like I have.

Didn't mean to hijack this thread, so Ray, back to your thread...

Terry, I know your a Tormach fan, and that is cool with me, everyone has different experiences, no offense to you or other Tormach lovers on here.

Scott
Commercial Mach3 & Mach 4, Design/Build/Retrofit CNC and Industrial machines.
http://www.ss-systems-llc.com/

Offline poppabear

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #401 on: December 30, 2012, 08:40:23 PM »
ah, found the topic on the CNC zone, be interesting to see how long it stays there without disappearing as well, since that forum is Tormach sponsored..

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach_pcnc/64889-atc_kit_tomach_about_released.html

Back in 2008.........

Scott
Commercial Mach3 & Mach 4, Design/Build/Retrofit CNC and Industrial machines.
http://www.ss-systems-llc.com/

Offline BR549

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #402 on: December 30, 2012, 09:28:28 PM »
Sorry  but not a Tormach lover OR hater, I just understand the reason behind their decision to lockout the user from Config.

As to the Company? NEVER have I dealt with them so I could not say one way or the other.

NOW from other dealings and designing machines and gizmos.  NEVER work without specific contracts and NEVER put ANYTHING on the WEB. In most cases you LOOSE all rights the moment you do so.

Been there done that as well, KNOW better now, (;-) TP

Offline poppabear

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #403 on: December 30, 2012, 10:21:16 PM »
Yeap, what he said............
Commercial Mach3 & Mach 4, Design/Build/Retrofit CNC and Industrial machines.
http://www.ss-systems-llc.com/
Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #404 on: December 31, 2012, 11:31:31 AM »
Tormach has made the (perfectly reasonable) decision to get their machines working as well as they can with a single, now very old, version of Mach3.  That way, they don't have to deal with the new bugs that get introduced with each new release.  They run a slightly modified version of Mach3 that has user access to many critical settings, like the motor tuning parameters, disabled so they don't have to support customers who go in and mess with the settings.  They will happily send you the information needed to setup an off-the-shelf copy of Mach3, but they, again perfectly reasonably, will NOT support you once you've done this.  Support costs a LOT of money, so I think their position is very reasonable.

Regards,
Ray L.
Regards,
Ray L.
Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #405 on: December 31, 2012, 11:40:37 AM »
Like you Ray, I don't appreciate how they treat folks like you, and me for that matter.
Having said that, I don't blame them for locking out their profiles/screens from curious buyers due to support issues, but on the other other hand, I don't think
you or anyone else should be talked down to either. There where many, many witnesses to my building my prototype at the CNC zone, along with my ideas for improvements and ect.
Here is the REAL kicker, I was asked to keep the Production ATC under 3K they said no one would pay more than that, so I cut out alot of bells/whistles to keep labor/cost down.
Then Blammo, they come out with there 6K ATC (including the Draw bar device, since that is also part of the complete package)...... Funny how that works isn't it.

Sorry to hear about your experience with Tormach.  I remember reading parts of that thread ages ago, but didn't realize the whole story.  Just for the record, I've never had any dealing of any kind with Tormach, other than buying some of their TTS tools.
Didn't mean to hijack this thread, so Ray, back to your thread...
That's funny, because it's not *my* thread, it's Steves, and, if anything, I hi-jacked it from him!  :-)  Now we're having a "who can build the bet ATC the quickest" contest.  I think I've won the "quickest", but he will clearly win the "best" with his typically outstanding work.  Mine is more from the "quick and dirty, but gets the job done" school.

Regards,
Ray L.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 11:43:09 AM by HimyKabibble »
Regards,
Ray L.

Offline poppabear

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #406 on: December 31, 2012, 04:30:43 PM »
well you have BOTH done excellant work!!! I really like the way both of you designed things!

Scott
Commercial Mach3 & Mach 4, Design/Build/Retrofit CNC and Industrial machines.
http://www.ss-systems-llc.com/
Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #407 on: December 31, 2012, 05:01:09 PM »
Scott,

Thanks!

I just got done reviewing the whole of your ATC thread.  You had some serious trolling going on in there!  Yikes! 

Sorry to see how it all turned out.  I'm curious, if you don't mind my asking - Were you successful in selling your design?

Regards,
Ray L.
Regards,
Ray L.

Offline poppabear

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #408 on: December 31, 2012, 07:40:57 PM »
Yes, sold it to an "Indian" company (the country), they just bought it straight out.
Then they recontacted me about re-doing the programming/screens since they added it to one
of their OEM machines. I had to do the PLC program on a Mitsubishi series PLC, since they could
not get Koyo (ADC), as easy or cheaply. I added a swap arm routine to it as well.

Yes, the Trolling and Shrills where unbelievable there. I did learn a very valuable lesson to never, ever
again, try to show a project on a forum like CNC Zone.

Scott
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 07:43:00 PM by poppabear »
Commercial Mach3 & Mach 4, Design/Build/Retrofit CNC and Industrial machines.
http://www.ss-systems-llc.com/

Offline simpson36

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Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course
« Reply #409 on: January 02, 2013, 05:07:40 PM »
I will catch up on this thread when I have more time. For now, here is a short video of the first test of the partially assembled ATC on the steel plate that will be the side of the head for the new mill.

Couple notes: I only have one Carousel 'pod' so not much point in spinning it around, but there is a motor fitted and the carousel rotates. There is a lot of play in the carousel partially due to the missing motor, but most or all of the play will be removed during final assembly.

I have removed the individual safety interlocks from each pod in favor of a single interlock on the air cylinder that releases the pod.

The sliding shaft is covered by a rubber bellows . . not installed for testing.

The mechanics are running a little over half speed for this first test.

The coil spring replacement for the belleville stack is completed, but I have to reassemble the spindle, test the actuator and then can add it to this mock-up. Testing with the spindle in place is going to require more air valves and relays to drive them so there are some do-dads that will need to be acquired to test all of the pieces together.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFEfXIAlqCE&feature=youtu.be