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surface map
« on: April 15, 2021, 11:07:41 AM »
Hi,

There are couple things that i dont understand in surface mapping, if anyone can help me understand i will be glad;

I am trying to make surface mapping work for PCB engraving, i can map the surface and when map is loaded i can see the automatic adjustment in Zth axis within the mapped area during jogging and gcode running.

Machine homes in place and for the test, 150mm x 150mm area mapped, with 5mm resolution in both axis, zth axis adjustment precision during jogging was within 4 microns. Machined PCB was 100mm x 100mm and gcode prepared in HSMWorks.

First problem; after loading the map and when i close the plugin window, the zth axis jumps up suddenly, this move is so strong it shakes the 4 Ton machine,

second problem; when axises move outside of the mapped area zth axis again jumps up suddenly, it does not ramp up as it does in the youtube video,

third and the most important problem;

i can not zero the zth axis correctly, when i use the same tool(or when changed the tools) to zero it on the PCB from the touch off UI, it displays 10.77 in the Zth axis DRO instead of 10, i dont know where this 0.77mm is coming from. You can see the values i enter to the touch off UI in the attached image, when the touch plate is the actual plate(which is PCB) the plate height should be entered 0 and the retract height is 10mm after probing so, DRO should display 10mm after probing right?

What am i missing in here? does surface map plugin adds the measured value during mapping at that coordinate to the probing result? If so, its not good. Because of this i can not carve the PCB correctly, the value it should dive in to the PCB is -0.04mm but it enters way more than that and cleans up all the paths. I cannot fix it by altering the 0 point from the DRO, i cannot find the exact error and not sure if it is 0.77mm.

I am sure there are things that i dont understand about the concept of surface mapping, if anyone can help to correct those problems i will be glad, thanks in advance.

Regards,

Hakan



 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 11:14:03 AM by hyildiz »
Re: surface map
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2021, 03:48:43 PM »
We've made a new UI for surface mapping that's a little more intuitive.
We just tested TLO's within the map as well as probing with the new map applied.
Message me at support@machsupport.com and I'll help you get setup with the new UI and help you through the process.
This also goes for anyone else having issues with mapping.
We just finished this within the last couple weeks so it's not been released yet :)
Re: surface map
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2021, 02:40:02 PM »
Hi again,

I used the newest wizard that i got from email, nothing changed, this is what happened;

110x110mm surface mapped,

new wizard asked me for a folder to save the mapped surface data, data saved to a file,

after i load the file from plugin window, hit apply and close the window, again Zth axis made a sudden down non-controllable move of approx. 1mm with G0 speed. Not good!

When i try to zero the tool with touch UI by using same surface touching method(at the center of the mapped area), Mach4 writes a weird value to Zth axis DRO(please see attached image). Not good!

I manually changed the Zth DRO value to 10mm(as it should be) and hit cycle start, i got a usable PCB carving(see the attached image), user should not manually do this!

When X and Y axises move outside of the scanned area, Zth axis again does a approx. 1mm sudden upwards move with G0 speed. Not good!

So problems still exist but manually overcame to some extend.

After surface map file loaded to the plugin or while leaving the mapped area, machine should not make any sudden movement by itself.

When surface map is in use, if user tries to measure the tool height, plugin should not add the Zth error at that point to the tool height value(i think this is what it is doing), this makes the surface mapping meaningless.

Regards,

Hakan

« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 02:45:49 PM by hyildiz »
Re: surface map
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2021, 03:05:33 PM »
I made another test and got same results, with manual intervention(changing the zth height by stopping and resuming when it does not cut the PCB because of the PCB surface error) but zero point measurement still not working as it should be.

When map loaded, this sudden movement in zth axis can not be seen in the DRO so it messes up the zero point if it is measured prior to the surface map, so it has to be measured again after map loaded to the plugin, any solutions from support?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 03:12:14 PM by hyildiz »
Re: surface map
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2021, 05:12:57 AM »
Hi,
I don't think Surface Wizard is the best choice for levelling PCB's.

I have used Surface Wizard and it probes the bed of the mill an then automatically adjusts the Z coordinate in all and every
Gcode program you run thereafter. Its seems to work well, but seems also that it was intended that you would probe your machine
only occasionally.

For levelling PCB's you need to probe EVERY new PCB because there is always some flex/twist/bow in the material and must be measured
and corrected for good results.

Autoleveller is a good freeware utility made specifically for levelling PCB's....and it works a treat.

http://www.autoleveller.co.uk/

I've been using it for years, and over the last year I use it daily. Today I made three PCB's, each one requires levelling ergo I used
AutolevellerAE three times today alone.

Craig

My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!
Re: surface map
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2021, 07:03:54 AM »
Hi Craig,

autoleveller does not work with Mach4 as much as i know and our aim is to make the surface map work because it is implemented within Mach4 so you dont need to do it with another program when it is already there within Mach4. They say it is working so as a user u have right to expect that it is working.  ;)

surface map works nice, the problems are related with the tool height measurement and while u are loading the map machine moves by itself, other than these problems it works nice and corrects the error on the surface within couple microns. This is why we want to make it work.

I tried it on couple cheap PCB boards these are the worst ones u can buy(not epoxy ones) they have many problems on the surface because of the lamination processes and they bend by themselves on the shelf with the moisture in air but even on these PCBs with the problems above described, i got very good results with some manual adjustments during carving + right tool, u can see one of them below, its a PCB for a sound card mod. i did for the test.

So it is obvious that u can get good results on epoxy PCBs without any manual adjustment if you keep the mapping grid <=5mm.

Regards,

Hakan
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 07:16:10 AM by hyildiz »
Re: surface map
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2021, 08:42:49 AM »
Hi,

Quote
autoleveller does not work with Mach4

BS.....I use Mach4 and Autoleveller day in and day out and have done for years.

Quote
They say it is working so as a user u have right to expect that it is working.  ;)

And to my knowledge it does work....or at least did when I tried but it just to damned slow for repeated use.

Craig
My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!
Re: surface map
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2021, 01:58:56 PM »
Hi Craig,

I know there is a way to make autoleveller work with Mach4 but it is not worth to try that much for something which is already there.

Ok if u could make the surface mapping work can you check the following when you have time;

- does your machine's Zth axis jumps(move up or down very fast) when you load the mapped data to the plugin?(this move cannot be seen in DRO)

- after loading the map, when you try to find the tool tip(zero point) by touching to the surface of the PCB(by using touch UI), does it give you the correct height? or adds a value which should not be there?

- while map loaded, if you move the axis(X or Y) towards outside of the mapped area with half or full throttle, does your Zth axis makes a jump while it is leaving the area?

If you can check and confirm i will be glad, thanks in advance.

Regards,

Hakan
Re: surface map
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2021, 07:42:41 PM »
Hi,
my machine PC has an much earlier build of Mach4 (3481) which predates Surface Wizard.

When I tested Surface Wizard I used my laptop which at that time I had been keeping up-to-date with Mach4 builds.
I  hooked it to my motion controller (ESS) and tested out Surface Wizard. This was some 18 months-two years ago
when Surface Wizard was first released. I do not remember the details well enough to answer your questions.

What I did determine at that time was that I could use Surface Wizard for the purpose of flattening PCBs but it was a poor
second choice to Autoleveller that I had already been using for four years. As a consequence I saw no need to update my machine PC
with the latest Mach4 build....there was nothing in it that I required....and that remains the case today. The early build of Mach4
does everything I need of it.....so why bother? In fact I've not bothered and the last time I hooked my machine PC to the internet was
to download and install the build (3481) that it has on it now, which I would guess is three-four years old now. I've made many hundreds
of PCBs and other parts since then. I'm now making PCBs daily and for work purposes and I have no intention of fiddling with anything
that may upset that work-flow.

The next time my machine PC gets taken out-of-service is when I commission my new build mill. It is much bigger, faster, more powerful and
many many times more rigid. In particular I'm using 750W AC servos and they fly, my G0's are 25m/min, and G1's are 15m/min.
I anticipate that my new-build mill will be commissioned over the next two months.

At that time I will update my Mach4 build.

Craig
My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!
Re: surface map
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2021, 06:04:40 AM »
Hi Craig,

So u have no idea about if it is working with Mach4 4.2.0.4680 + ESS V270 combo or not right? and u can not test it right now am i correct?

Is there anyone else who can test the surface mapping wizard for the above problems?

Regards,

Hakan