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Updating to Mach4 and have questions
« on: January 01, 2021, 09:07:13 AM »
Hello everyone!

The old computer in the garage is dying. She has served me very well for 14 years. Now I have to put in a newer computer without a parallel port so I will need to update my control panels with motion controllers. I currently just swap out the cables as needed from the lathe and mill to run each machine.

Is it possible to plug in 2 motion control boards into 2 usb ports, configure Mach4 to run the lathe and mill from the separate boards (one at a time) without having to swap out the cables from one machine to another? One computer running 2 machines never at the same time.

I'm hoping I can install the new USB smooth steppers and plug them into my existing breakout board, use the ethernet port to communicate with the house computer, and completely reformat my newer computer and install W10 and Mach4.

Does this sound reasonable? What am I missing?

Mill
4 Axis
Estop button

Lathe
2 axis
Estop button
Cycle start button

Offline Tweakie.CNC

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Re: Updating to Mach4 and have questions
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2021, 10:00:33 AM »
Hi Steve,

I think you would be using Ethernet connected Smooth Steppers (ESS) with Mach4.
They could both be connected - when starting Mach4 you would then just select the appropriate motion controller to be able to run a particular machine.

Tweakie.
PEACE
Re: Updating to Mach4 and have questions
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2021, 12:56:41 PM »
Hi Steve,

I think you would be using Ethernet connected Smooth Steppers (ESS) with Mach4.
They could both be connected - when starting Mach4 you would then just select the appropriate motion controller to be able to run a particular machine.

Tweakie.


I was hoping to use USB boards because I already have the ports free and I would not Need additional power supplies as the USB can power thru the port. Are you saying that It won't work with USB boards?
Re: Updating to Mach4 and have questions
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2021, 03:06:01 PM »
Hi,
there are external motion controllers that have a Mach4 plugin that are USB connected:

UC100, one parallel port equivalent=17 IOs
PMDX412, one parallel port equivalent=17 IOs
57CNCdb25, one parallel port equivalent=17 IOs

There is a greater selection of Ethernet connected Mach4 external motion controllers:

Ethernet SmoothStepper, 51 IOs
UC400ETH, 34 IOs
UC300, 85 IOs
57CNC, 57 IOs
PMDX424, 34 IOs
Hicon Integra, not sure how many IOs, depends a little on what extra equipment you buy, but lots of IOs
CSMIO/S and CSMIO/A, not sure how many IOs, but plenty.

You see that the USB connected devices only have one parallel port equivalents worth of IO, whereas all the Ethernet connected
devices have at least two parallel port equivalents worth of IO, and in many cases much more than that.

One of the greatest advances that Mach4 offers over Mach3 is the ability to customize your machine by the addition of switches, sensors
etc, write Lua scripts to handle the extra inputs, and modify the behavior of your machine to suit. Much of that power and flexibility is lost
if you are constricted with just 17IOs.

Another of the problems with USB connected devices is poor noise immunity. They are to all intents and purposes not useful
for any plasma machines, the electrical noise of the plasma defeats the USB every time. Ethernet connected devices have much
better noise immunity.

A second issue is latency. USB data is transmitted in packets several milliseconds apart, whereas Ethernet the time between packets
is much reduced, several hundreds of micro seconds. If you are waiting for a piece of data from your controller you could be
waiting for something like ten times longer with USB vs Ethernet.

I would have to recommend to anyone who wants to upgrade to Mach4 that they get an Ethernet connected device, despite the extra cost
and required 5V supply. A good and capable controller you will have for years, whereas an underperforming, noise prone and IO challenged
device is likely be thrown against the wall in frustration in short order.

Craig
'I enjoy sex at 73.....I live at 71 so its not too far to walk.'
Re: Updating to Mach4 and have questions
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2021, 04:10:10 PM »
Craig, thank you for the information!

Crazy question!  The smoothstepper has 2 ports that can funtion as parallel ports. Would it be possible to use one port for the mill and one port for the lathe? Could I configure Mach4 to use one port when in mill mode and the other port when in lathe mode? Might save me a few bucks.
Re: Updating to Mach4 and have questions
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2021, 05:06:26 PM »
Hi,

Quote
The smoothstepper has 2 ports that can funtion as parallel ports. Would it be possible to use one port for the mill and one port for the lathe?

I have given this a little thought of late, I am building a new mill but wish to keep my existing mini-mill operating while I test and tune my
new build. So my question is only slightly different to your own....can I run two separate mills independently off the one ESS albeit one at a time?
I think the answer is....yes......but with potential problems.

Firstly Mac4 is designed, although not yet released, to run multiple instances of itself. Have you ever wondered why all Lua scripts need an 'inst'
variable? One day in the future it will be because you could run multiple instances and the variable will become critical. This has not happened yet....

Lets imagine that you have one ESS but two profiles, one profile for each machine.

Mach4 can handle six motors, so you could assign three motors for one machine and three for the other. No problems right?
Mach4 allows only one out-of-band (OB) axis be spindle however. That is to say of the six potential OB axes one and only one will have all
the features that we associate with a spindle, things like m3,m4,m5 and s5000 etc. Thus you could have but one regular spindle in your
two machine scenario. You could have a second OB axis as the other spindle but you would miss on the usual control features we have
become used to. Not withstanding that lack you can use the usual jog features of an OB axis to achieve spindle like behavior.

In my case I'm not really concerned with having an operating spindle on my new build machine....yet. This exercise is only to test my
new build.

I came to the conclusion however that to really monkey with my existing installation is likely to cause me problems with my existing mini-mill,
and it has become critical to my work. I have elected not to do this.

A second option is to have still just the one ESS with two profiles as before but two breakout board assemblies, one for each machine.
It would require that you unplug the ribbon cable(s) from one machine BoB assembly and plug in the alternate BoB assembly.
Not quite as convenient but I suspect very much less likely to cause issues with one machine setup screwing with the other.

It has always been my intention to make my own breakout board, electronics is my thing. My own design would be perfectly tailored to my
machine with regard to balance of inputs and outputs, the circuit characteristics of each input, (24V tolerant?, opto isolated?) and
output (line driver vs single ended?, active high vs active low?, 24V or 5V?). Thus if I advanced the timeline for this project I could
have my two BoB assemblies without any extra purchases.

If you follow this general idea, that is, one ESS, two profiles and two BoB assemblies, you could automate it somewhat that would mean
that you did not have to repeatedly plug and unplug the cables. You could have in each profile one digital output that when set caused
all the ESS IO be directed to one BoB assembly and when unset all IO be sent to the alternate BoB assembly. Would require a dozen or
so tri-state buffer ICs (74lLS125's for example), and some logic to glue it together. If you are handy with electronics I could help you with a design.

Just as a matter of clarification the ESS has three equivalent parallel ports while the nearly obsolete USS early model had only two parallel port equivalents.

Craig
'I enjoy sex at 73.....I live at 71 so its not too far to walk.'
Re: Updating to Mach4 and have questions
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2021, 06:53:15 PM »
I have given it some thought and what I was thinking was to add two ethernet ports to the computer and just install an ESS for each machine and put a ribbon from the new ESS to the existing BOB in both control panels. Mill profile being setup for the ESS in the mill panel and the lathe profile being setup for the ESS in the lathe panel. Then there will be no switcharoo with cables. If only one ESS is powered up when needed can mach4 switch back and fourth "automatically"? I wouldn't mind the extra expense if I wont have to flip flop cables all the time.
Re: Updating to Mach4 and have questions
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2021, 07:22:28 PM »
Hi,

Quote
Then there will be no switcharoo with cables

Don't think that will work, what you are relying on is that the inactive and depowered ESS presents no appreciable impedance to the active and powered one.
You really need to isolate the inactive device by either physically un-plugging it OR tri-state all its inputs/outputs.

Additionally the ESS at $180 is often more expensive than a BoB,  basic bi-directional C10's are $23.00 each and a C25 is $29.00. A C10 is one parallel port
equivalent whereas the C25 has one parallel port equivalent with pins 2-9 as outputs and a second parallel port equivalent with pins 2-9 as inputs.

My recomendation is to have one ESS directed to one of two breakout boards, one breakout board per machine. You can avoid having to plug/unplug cables
by using multiple change-over relays, or its electronic equivalent: parallel tri-state buffers.

Craig
'I enjoy sex at 73.....I live at 71 so its not too far to walk.'

Offline Tweakie.CNC

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Re: Updating to Mach4 and have questions
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2021, 05:52:48 AM »
Hi Steve,

You may wish to consider the Hicon Integra for lathe working as that is the motion controller NFS test Mach4 development builds against and use for threading with their Mori SL3.

Tweakie.
PEACE
Re: Updating to Mach4 and have questions
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2021, 11:37:32 AM »
Hi,
the ESS has supported  single point lathe threading for several years also.

Craig
'I enjoy sex at 73.....I live at 71 so its not too far to walk.'