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Author Topic: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..  (Read 538 times)

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Morning Gang!

First a little background-

I have been using Mach for about 10-11 years. Started with 2 and have been using 3 for as long as I can remember.

I have retrofit a Bridgeport series 1, a Tree 425 mill (4 axis) and a few routers for friends over the years.

At this time I am just wrapping up a Monarch 10ee lathe CNC conversion. I have an unmodified 10ee as well.

My CNC 10ee is from 1955, and was originally an "air tracer machine" so it was special enough to not be useful as a standard manual lathe anymore, and thus I did not have any qualms converting a 10ee.

The 10ee is set up as follows-
*7.5 baldor VFD and 7.5 Hp 1750 motor. Geared approximately 3:1, so the spindle runs about 1/3 of motor speed. Motor and spindle coupled with a large timing belt. No slip under heavy cuts, but noisy with this belt. Seems this motor has lots of torque. spindle tach never deviated more than 2 rpm when under cutting conditions. So far I am happy with 7.5hp.
*Orig spindle oiler setup destroyed, so I have installed a small pump for constant oiling.
*Steppers on X and Z, 890ozin motors, running G214r geckodrives
*Ethernet SS
*C25 BOB
*CXX spindle pulse board. one notch in wheel, approx 1/4 of disk perimeter. so far signal is very stable. as far as i can tell.
*limit and home switches.
*full compliment of contactors, relays etc for controlling accessories, drive power, SS power, Coolant etc.
*all power supplies 70VDC, 12VDC, 24VDC, etc are activated by relays and contactors such that they are all individually controllable and all items are fused.
*standard dell pc tower running mach3.
*20HP cnc capable Rotary convertor supplying 3 ph to the VFD drive.

So far I am very happy with the conversion, but I am only a few cuts into using it.

I did have a Hardinge CHNC I had converted years ago, but sold it to fund the 10ee conversion, so it is not my first rodeo with a mach3 controlled lathe.

So... on to my real issues, now that I have provided some background.

I have a delta ASDA-B2 drive with a matched 750W servo motor. Encoder believed to be 17bit, biut not enumerated on the motor so I really am not sure. I do not have the delta tuning software, acc keypad or connector cable to use the software tuning.

I have been able to apply 3ph to the delta drive and then also power the two seperate control circut power leads. Pulled from 3 ph.

Servo drive powers up with no faults, and after adjusting parameter 2-30 to 1, I am able to enter Jog mode and get full 3k rpm of servo when jog is commanded. CW and CCW both work.

Although I can get the Delta drive to operate correctly in Jog, running it with Mach3 is another thing.

I have been able to get the ASDA-B2 to respond (correctly) to step and direction (Sign and Pulse according to Delta manual) however, the motor (despite tuning everything I could find in drive and mach and SS configurations, to no avail. I am only able to get the motor running at about 4rpm. No matter what I do I cannot seem to get the servo to run at a reasonable (usable) speed.

I have been doing a lot of reading (spent 12hrs working on this yesterday) and as far as I can tell, Mach3 may not be sending the correct pulse train through the ESS, into the C10BOB and into the Delta Drive.

I did check to make sure that my BOB is outputting a full 5vdc+ to the delta drive. I understand that the Delta drive wants Differential signals for Sign and Pulse. Mach does not do this, and this may be my issue. I have ordered Differential Line Driver from CNC4PC, hopefully will have them by the end of the week.

Another possibility is that the electronic gearing in the ASDA-2B is set incorrectly. I have seen much referring to this here in this forum. I am having trouble with parameters 1-44, 1-45, and 146. I don't seem to be able to figure out how to enter the gearing ratio correctly. I suspect this is due to the fact that the parameters for gearing are able to be input as a large number, I cannot figure out where the real decimal point is in the setting, I fear that if I don't know which decimal is the right one, I have been entering erroneous numbers. I tried 0-ing out the value and they typing in a new one, but I just cant figure out where the number goes in relation to the (many) decimal places that the ASDA-B2 has in these parameters.

I gather that I should have 160,0000 pulses for my 1 full encoder rotation. I also gather that I should set 1-46 to 40,000 as this represents the "line count" I need for electronic gearing to work correctly. I am hazy on these matters.

It may all come down to needing better signal/conditioning of the pulses out of mach3, and having the pulses output in -5v/+5v differential via a Differential Line Driver. '

I plan to install the 750w servo on my 10ee as the Z axis. Mostly just to play with an AC servo/drive for a change. Very interesting stuff.

Notes:

A. the Delta manual is specific to later drives for my drive. I originally was using an incorrect version. the correct version uses a DB44 female connector for CNC1, and the old drive version used a different connector. Once I found the right manual, things made more sense.
B. you cannot alter some parameters unless you deactivate the drive by forcing "servo on" to "servo off" via perameter 2-30. Once disabled, all parameters can be adjusted. Note also that to have drive operate either in JOG or by Mach3, one HAS to activate parameter 2-30 by changing the value to 1 (on)
C. the manual is crazy long. 300 some pages. takes forever to scroll up and down to find information in section to section. very irritating, I would print it, but at 300+ pages, it will have to wait.

The Delta drive has many ways to interface inputs, open collector, single ended input/line driver, etc. I really could use a breakdown of how each works. I am not clear on if their is a way to cheat and run it without a differential signal? I did check to make sure I have a full +5vdc to the drive, but this is only half of a differential signal. I see that some people may have had success applying a single ended stream of pulses to the drive, but as of yet, I have not been able to make it work.

Their is discussion of using resistors and transistors to make the signal usable for the ADSA-B2, but I am really quite lost on this matter. Any insight would be welcome.

IF, anyone has a setup running mach3/ESS/C25BOB and a ASDA-B2 drive, I would be most interested in knowing what your settings in mach3 motor tuning/ports and pins/and ESS settings are. If I had these it could be a sort of baseline to start from.

ASDA-B2 manual is available here-

https://www.scribd.com/document/366289266/DELTA-IA-ASD-B2-UM-EN-20141217

Thanks to everyone to taking the time to read this.

Nate in Ann Arbor Michigan.
Hi,

Quote
I am having trouble with parameters 1-44, 1-45, and 146. I don't seem to be able to figure out how to enter the gearing ratio correctly. I suspect this is due to the fact that the parameters for gearing are able to be input as a large number, I cannot figure out where the real decimal point is in the setting, I fear that if I don't know which decimal is the right one, I have been entering erroneous numbers.

I had exactly the same problem, trying to program numbers that have more digits than the display is wide. I had the decimal in the
wrong place and it ages for me to work out why. Eventually I got the special programming cable and used the software, its highly recommended.
I bought the Delta made cable but I believe a 'Firewire' cable will work, although I understand there are two types of Firewire cable, only one of which
is applicable to Delta servos, ergo I bought the right one, a Delta accessory.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ASDA-B2-AB-A2-rs232-ASD-CNUS0A08-PLC-Programming-Cable-HJ54-YD/173788498397?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I'm just about to leave for work but will consider some of the questions you raise and reply tonight.

Craig
My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!
Hi,

Quote
I have a delta ASDA-B2 drive with a matched 750W servo motor. Encoder believed to be 17bit, biut not enumerated on the motor so I really am not sure. I do not have the delta tuning software, acc keypad or connector cable to use the software tuning.

To my knowledge ALL B2 series have the 17bit (nom) or 160,000cpr encoder, thats what make them B2 series.

Quote
I have been able to get the ASDA-B2 to respond (correctly) to step and direction (Sign and Pulse according to Delta manual) however, the motor (despite tuning everything I could find in drive and mach and SS configurations, to no avail. I am only able to get the motor running at about 4rpm. No matter what I do I cannot seem to get the servo to run at a reasonable (usable) speed.

Almost certainly because you have the wrong electronic gearing parameters set.

Quote
I did check to make sure that my BOB is outputting a full 5vdc+ to the delta drive. I understand that the Delta drive wants Differential signals for Sign and Pulse. Mach does not do this, and this may be my issue. I have ordered Differential Line Driver from CNC4PC, hopefully will have them by the end of the week.

If you set the electronic gearing parameters such that you dont require excessively high signalling rate to the drive, say less than 200kHz, then you DON'T NEED
differential signalling, single ended will be fine. The drive is expecting 24V signalling. I have a transistor between my BoB and the Step and Direction inputs of the drive.

I determined that I could have 1um linear resolution with my servos electronically geared to 5000 cpr. To acheive that I set the numerator to 1 and the
denominator to 32.

P1-44 = 1
P1-45 =32

160,000 x 1/32 = 5000.

What happens, in effect, is that  one pulse from my BoB causes the servo to rotate 32 of its native (160,000 count) encoder counts. If I pulse the drive 5000 times
the servo will advance 160,000 counts of its encoder, or one revolution. Easy.

Note that if I want my servo to do 3000rpm in my machine, that is 50 revs/sec then I would need to signal the drive 50 x 5000 =250,000 or 250kHz.
That is very much the top limit for single ended Step/Direction input and I really need to go to differential signalling. When the servo is doing 2000rpm
the signalling rate is a more modest 200kHz, within the capability of a single ended input and my machine is still doing 10m/min which is more than
fast enough for me.

P1-46 is the setting that determines the lines/rev number of the synthesized servo for monitoring purposes only. For instance you might have an external
monitor on your axis that requires 1000 pulses to read 10mm. If your ballscrew is 10mm pitch (conveniently) then you would set P1-46 = 250. The monitor
encoder output would then be 4 x 250 =1000 counts (or pulses) per rev, just right for your external monitor.

Note the the synthesized encoder output has NO BEARING on the internal operation of the native encoder nor the electronic gearing parameters that
accompany it.


Craig
My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!
Craig-

Thanks so much for diving into the details of the electronic gears and such. I will read this over about 10 times and hopefully will be able to make it 'click'

I am going downstairs to the shop to see if I can get the electronic gearing and line count set.



As far as getting the pulse stream sorted-

I would like to try and use the existing single ended output 5vdc+ from my C25 board.

You reference this here

"If you set the electronic gearing parameters such that you don't require excessively high signalling rate to the drive, say less than 200kHz, then you DON'T NEED
differential signalling, single ended will be fine. The drive is expecting 24V signalling. I have a transistor between my BoB and the Step and Direction inputs of the drive."

Several questions on this part.

1. What should I set my Mach3 Kernel Speed to? I have successfully used 25,000Hz and 45,000Hz. The PC running Mach3 is an older dell outputting through ethernet to the ESS.
2. In the ESS main config page of the plugin, I can set the ESS controller frequency. Suggestion for a frequency that is under the speed which will allow me to have correct pulsing output for the Delta Drive.
3. The Delta manual here- file:///C:/Users/Nate%20Foerg/Desktop/DELTA_IA-ASD_B2CURRENT.pdf on page 3-18, the figure gives a list of options for which pins on the DB44 connector should be wired up depending upon wether or not you want to hook it up to high or low speed pulses, open collector, etc. I gather that you are suggesting that I use the one called Position Pulse (Input) this is the only one that appears to support the 200KHz freq. Assuming I am correct on this being the correct option, I am unclear on how I should be using the pins here-

########################################
Position Pulse (Input)
PULSE /PULSE SIGN /SIGN PULL HI
43 41 39 37 35
Position pulse can be inputted by Line Driver (single phase max. frequency 500KHz) or open-collector (single phase max. frequency 200 KHz). Three kinds of command type can be selected via P1-00, CW pulse + CCW pulse, pulse + direction, A pulse + B pulse. When position pulse uses opencollector, the terminal should be connected to an external applied power in order to pull high.
Wiring Diagram C3/C4
####################################

Yesterday when testing, I had the pins set as follows-
From BOB, pin 2 (mach3 step pin) running to PULSE pin 43.
From BOB, pin 3 (mach3 Direction pin) running to SIGN pin 39.
From BOB Ground pin running to /PULSE pin 41.
From BOB Ground pin running to /SIGN pin 37.

With these connections I was able to 'slightly' move the motor with Mach3.

As I write this, I am Starting to have things fall slightly into view... looks like I should be using wiring diagram C3/4 on page 3-28 of the Delta manual.

If so, I was close on my wiring yesterday, but without having an external power source applied to "the terminal" (whatever that is. best guess is its pin 35) if that's the case, the diagram looks as if VDC- is applied to pin 35. Not clear on this 'pulling up' concept. I sort of get how it works, but at least in this application, I am unsure how to wire the external power supply. I assume it must be 5VDC+, and that if I used higher power, like the 24VDC the diagram calls for, I might damage the BOB or ESS, if what I believe is correct. All the resistors shown in diagram C3/4 appear to be internal to the Servo Drive. At least thats how I read it. However, I only vaguely read electronic schematics.

I don't get how I can wire the BOB pins 2 & 3 (5VDC+ when active) to Pins 39 & 43 on the Delta drive, as the BOB does not appear to have any -VDC available for pin 37 & 43. I suppose I could use Ground on the BOB as the -VDC. Possibly that's what should be done?

Would be curious to know how a transistor works in your application? I am thinking you have it amplify your 5VDC+ up to 24VDC+ for the Delta Drive to Accept as a digital input?

Again, updating this as I read more about things, I have found this link very informative pertaining to Open Collector. https://www.evilmadscientist.com/2012/basics-open-collector-outputs/

Ok, off to the shop for a few hrs.

Thanks so much for chiming in on these matters. I am most appreciative.

Nate.



Just wanted to add that after successfully getting the servo to Jog at various speeds, I am amazed by the silence, power and smoothness. The Smoothness compared to a stepper is off the charts.
Hi,

Quote
I would like to try and use the existing single ended output 5vdc+ from my C25 board.

Wrong answer, use the 0-5V signal to turn on the base of a signal transistor which in turns the drive input opto on and off.

Quote
What should I set my Mach3 Kernel Speed to? I have successfully used 25,000Hz and 45,000Hz

Immaterial, Machs kernel speed is to do with the parallel port and the ESS obviates the parallel port altogether. If you like the 'kernel'
speed with the ESS is 4MHz, that is the ultimate pulse speed of the ESS, a mere 160 times faster! Warp9 recommend leaving the kernel speed at 25kHz,
not that it should make any difference.

Quote
In the ESS main config page of the plugin, I can set the ESS controller frequency

I use Mach4 and the ESS Mach4 plugin is somewhat different however I think you are refering to the rate at which the ESS talks to Mach and is irrelevant
to driving servos. If the ESS was driving steppers before it will drive servos with virtually no alteration at all.

Will download the manual and have a closer look. Generally you use the built-in 24V supply within the drive to energise the input step/direction circuitry.
The choice of pins concerns the inclusion/exclusion of the series resistor within the drive. If you attempt to switch 24V (or even 5V) direct through the drive
input photodiode WITHOUT a series resistor somewhere in the circuit will blow the photodiode.

Quote
From BOB, pin 2 (mach3 step pin) running to PULSE pin 43.
From BOB, pin 3 (mach3 Direction pin) running to SIGN pin 39.
From BOB Ground pin running to /PULSE pin 41.
From BOB Ground pin running to /SIGN pin 37.

I think you may have miswired it. The output of the BoB (pin 2 or 3) is 5V, correct? You hooked that to the photodiode input (pin 39 or 43) without a series resistor,
and the other side of the photodiode (pins 37 or 41) to 0V. Thus the photodiode has to withstand the full 5V output of your BoB, you may have damaged it already.

When my drives turned up they had a sticker on the outside warning about the correct and alternate incorrect way to wire them....did you look at it, even save it?

Draw a circuit diagram of what you have done and post it. DO NOT HOOK ANY PHOTODIODE UP WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF A CURRENT LIMIT RESISTOR OR YOU WILL
DESTROY THE PHOTODIODE.

Craig
My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!
Well.. looks like you are right. I wired it up sans transistors and was not able to get any response from the drive. Jog still works, but it looks like I may have cooked the optos.

Fortunately there are replacement drives available affordably on ebay.

This drive/motor however can still be used just with the jog command at whatever speed I set in the parameters. So its not useless, it would make a great drive motor for a horizontal air bearing that I am converting to a rotary grinding (work) spindle for grinding bearing spacers and such on the surface grinder.

Alternately, the drive/motor could be used to power any number of things, a poiwer feed for example.

Hi,
I wouldn't give up just yet.

I would us a battery, say 9V to drive a little current through the photodiode via a milliampmeter to see whether the photo diode is intact.
I may be possible to replace them if they are faulty.
My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!
Nowhere near giving up. Rather, if the diodes are blown, I consider what I have learned so far to be well worth the cost.

I am seeing applications for as servos/drives everwhere now.
Hi,
referring to the attached picture from 3-27 of the manual.

Note that the internal 24V power supply is available at pin 17. Following the diagram you should direct connect pin 17 to pin 35.
With pin 35 now at 24V current can pass through the approx. 2kOhm resistor the 75 Ohm resistor, through the photodiode, through
the second 75 Ohm resistor to pin 37 and thence to the 24V COM at pin 14 via the transistor switch of your BoB or input circuit.
There is a second current path through the 2kOhm parallel resistor as well.

You can test the photodiode by having pins 17 and 35 connected as above. Then with your multimeter in ammeter mode probe
between pin 35 and pin 14. If the photodiode is intact I would expect a current of (24-2)/(2000 +75 +75)=10mA plus another
24/2000=12mA being the current through the 2kOhm parallel resistor, for a total of 22mA. If the photodiode is open circuit
you'll see only 12mA.

Note that Delta have an anti-parallel diode across the photodiode. This prevents a large reverse bias from ever being presented to the photodiode.
Photodiodes are notoriously poor at resisting reverse bias, they tend to go into destructive avalanche breakdown, hence the anti-parallel diode
is precautionary. You can test it in identical manner to the photodiode. Connect pin 17, not to pin 35, but rather pin 37. Now with your multimeter
still in ammeter mode probe between pin 35 and pin 14. If the anti-parallel diode is OK you should see about 22-24mA. If its open circuit
you'll see only 12mA.

I bought three 750W B2 series and drives, brand new, for $520 each (including $80 three day DHL shipping to New Zealand) several months ago.
In short you should be able to buy a NEW driver for around $200 plus shipping. I wouldn't be messing around with second hand at that price.

Quote
I am seeing applications for as servos/drives everwhere now.

Modern AC servos have such a wealth of control options, including step/direction position mode, analogue velocity and torque modes, a variety
of index modes (position and velocity), and secondary modes as well. Thus you could have your servo running in position mode as its primary function,
yet by controlling one digital input to the drive, it can switch to velocity mode. They are just so flexible they can be used in so many circumstances.

To date the price of AC servos have prevented many hobbyists from experimenting with them but Delta and DMM are two brands of GOOD quality
at very fair prices. There are even cheaper Chinese made servos and drives and while less is known about the quality and backup of these
cheaper brands many who have used them are reporting good success. Over the coming years more and more hobbyists are going to take advantage
of the performance benefits.

Craig
My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!