Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: natefoerg on February 04, 2020, 12:28:21 PM

Title: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 04, 2020, 12:28:21 PM
Morning Gang!

First a little background-

I have been using Mach for about 10-11 years. Started with 2 and have been using 3 for as long as I can remember.

I have retrofit a Bridgeport series 1, a Tree 425 mill (4 axis) and a few routers for friends over the years.

At this time I am just wrapping up a Monarch 10ee lathe CNC conversion. I have an unmodified 10ee as well.

My CNC 10ee is from 1955, and was originally an "air tracer machine" so it was special enough to not be useful as a standard manual lathe anymore, and thus I did not have any qualms converting a 10ee.

The 10ee is set up as follows-
*7.5 baldor VFD and 7.5 Hp 1750 motor. Geared approximately 3:1, so the spindle runs about 1/3 of motor speed. Motor and spindle coupled with a large timing belt. No slip under heavy cuts, but noisy with this belt. Seems this motor has lots of torque. spindle tach never deviated more than 2 rpm when under cutting conditions. So far I am happy with 7.5hp.
*Orig spindle oiler setup destroyed, so I have installed a small pump for constant oiling.
*Steppers on X and Z, 890ozin motors, running G214r geckodrives
*Ethernet SS
*C25 BOB
*CXX spindle pulse board. one notch in wheel, approx 1/4 of disk perimeter. so far signal is very stable. as far as i can tell.
*limit and home switches.
*full compliment of contactors, relays etc for controlling accessories, drive power, SS power, Coolant etc.
*all power supplies 70VDC, 12VDC, 24VDC, etc are activated by relays and contactors such that they are all individually controllable and all items are fused.
*standard dell pc tower running mach3.
*20HP cnc capable Rotary convertor supplying 3 ph to the VFD drive.

So far I am very happy with the conversion, but I am only a few cuts into using it.

I did have a Hardinge CHNC I had converted years ago, but sold it to fund the 10ee conversion, so it is not my first rodeo with a mach3 controlled lathe.

So... on to my real issues, now that I have provided some background.

I have a delta ASDA-B2 drive with a matched 750W servo motor. Encoder believed to be 17bit, biut not enumerated on the motor so I really am not sure. I do not have the delta tuning software, acc keypad or connector cable to use the software tuning.

I have been able to apply 3ph to the delta drive and then also power the two seperate control circut power leads. Pulled from 3 ph.

Servo drive powers up with no faults, and after adjusting parameter 2-30 to 1, I am able to enter Jog mode and get full 3k rpm of servo when jog is commanded. CW and CCW both work.

Although I can get the Delta drive to operate correctly in Jog, running it with Mach3 is another thing.

I have been able to get the ASDA-B2 to respond (correctly) to step and direction (Sign and Pulse according to Delta manual) however, the motor (despite tuning everything I could find in drive and mach and SS configurations, to no avail. I am only able to get the motor running at about 4rpm. No matter what I do I cannot seem to get the servo to run at a reasonable (usable) speed.

I have been doing a lot of reading (spent 12hrs working on this yesterday) and as far as I can tell, Mach3 may not be sending the correct pulse train through the ESS, into the C10BOB and into the Delta Drive.

I did check to make sure that my BOB is outputting a full 5vdc+ to the delta drive. I understand that the Delta drive wants Differential signals for Sign and Pulse. Mach does not do this, and this may be my issue. I have ordered Differential Line Driver from CNC4PC, hopefully will have them by the end of the week.

Another possibility is that the electronic gearing in the ASDA-2B is set incorrectly. I have seen much referring to this here in this forum. I am having trouble with parameters 1-44, 1-45, and 146. I don't seem to be able to figure out how to enter the gearing ratio correctly. I suspect this is due to the fact that the parameters for gearing are able to be input as a large number, I cannot figure out where the real decimal point is in the setting, I fear that if I don't know which decimal is the right one, I have been entering erroneous numbers. I tried 0-ing out the value and they typing in a new one, but I just cant figure out where the number goes in relation to the (many) decimal places that the ASDA-B2 has in these parameters.

I gather that I should have 160,0000 pulses for my 1 full encoder rotation. I also gather that I should set 1-46 to 40,000 as this represents the "line count" I need for electronic gearing to work correctly. I am hazy on these matters.

It may all come down to needing better signal/conditioning of the pulses out of mach3, and having the pulses output in -5v/+5v differential via a Differential Line Driver. '

I plan to install the 750w servo on my 10ee as the Z axis. Mostly just to play with an AC servo/drive for a change. Very interesting stuff.

Notes:

A. the Delta manual is specific to later drives for my drive. I originally was using an incorrect version. the correct version uses a DB44 female connector for CNC1, and the old drive version used a different connector. Once I found the right manual, things made more sense.
B. you cannot alter some parameters unless you deactivate the drive by forcing "servo on" to "servo off" via perameter 2-30. Once disabled, all parameters can be adjusted. Note also that to have drive operate either in JOG or by Mach3, one HAS to activate parameter 2-30 by changing the value to 1 (on)
C. the manual is crazy long. 300 some pages. takes forever to scroll up and down to find information in section to section. very irritating, I would print it, but at 300+ pages, it will have to wait.

The Delta drive has many ways to interface inputs, open collector, single ended input/line driver, etc. I really could use a breakdown of how each works. I am not clear on if their is a way to cheat and run it without a differential signal? I did check to make sure I have a full +5vdc to the drive, but this is only half of a differential signal. I see that some people may have had success applying a single ended stream of pulses to the drive, but as of yet, I have not been able to make it work.

Their is discussion of using resistors and transistors to make the signal usable for the ADSA-B2, but I am really quite lost on this matter. Any insight would be welcome.

IF, anyone has a setup running mach3/ESS/C25BOB and a ASDA-B2 drive, I would be most interested in knowing what your settings in mach3 motor tuning/ports and pins/and ESS settings are. If I had these it could be a sort of baseline to start from.

ASDA-B2 manual is available here-

https://www.scribd.com/document/366289266/DELTA-IA-ASD-B2-UM-EN-20141217

Thanks to everyone to taking the time to read this.

Nate in Ann Arbor Michigan.
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 04, 2020, 01:45:46 PM
Hi,

Quote
I am having trouble with parameters 1-44, 1-45, and 146. I don't seem to be able to figure out how to enter the gearing ratio correctly. I suspect this is due to the fact that the parameters for gearing are able to be input as a large number, I cannot figure out where the real decimal point is in the setting, I fear that if I don't know which decimal is the right one, I have been entering erroneous numbers.

I had exactly the same problem, trying to program numbers that have more digits than the display is wide. I had the decimal in the
wrong place and it ages for me to work out why. Eventually I got the special programming cable and used the software, its highly recommended.
I bought the Delta made cable but I believe a 'Firewire' cable will work, although I understand there are two types of Firewire cable, only one of which
is applicable to Delta servos, ergo I bought the right one, a Delta accessory.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ASDA-B2-AB-A2-rs232-ASD-CNUS0A08-PLC-Programming-Cable-HJ54-YD/173788498397?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ASDA-B2-AB-A2-rs232-ASD-CNUS0A08-PLC-Programming-Cable-HJ54-YD/173788498397?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)

I'm just about to leave for work but will consider some of the questions you raise and reply tonight.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 04, 2020, 05:11:35 PM
Hi,

Quote
I have a delta ASDA-B2 drive with a matched 750W servo motor. Encoder believed to be 17bit, biut not enumerated on the motor so I really am not sure. I do not have the delta tuning software, acc keypad or connector cable to use the software tuning.

To my knowledge ALL B2 series have the 17bit (nom) or 160,000cpr encoder, thats what make them B2 series.

Quote
I have been able to get the ASDA-B2 to respond (correctly) to step and direction (Sign and Pulse according to Delta manual) however, the motor (despite tuning everything I could find in drive and mach and SS configurations, to no avail. I am only able to get the motor running at about 4rpm. No matter what I do I cannot seem to get the servo to run at a reasonable (usable) speed.

Almost certainly because you have the wrong electronic gearing parameters set.

Quote
I did check to make sure that my BOB is outputting a full 5vdc+ to the delta drive. I understand that the Delta drive wants Differential signals for Sign and Pulse. Mach does not do this, and this may be my issue. I have ordered Differential Line Driver from CNC4PC, hopefully will have them by the end of the week.

If you set the electronic gearing parameters such that you dont require excessively high signalling rate to the drive, say less than 200kHz, then you DON'T NEED
differential signalling, single ended will be fine. The drive is expecting 24V signalling. I have a transistor between my BoB and the Step and Direction inputs of the drive.

I determined that I could have 1um linear resolution with my servos electronically geared to 5000 cpr. To acheive that I set the numerator to 1 and the
denominator to 32.

P1-44 = 1
P1-45 =32

160,000 x 1/32 = 5000.

What happens, in effect, is that  one pulse from my BoB causes the servo to rotate 32 of its native (160,000 count) encoder counts. If I pulse the drive 5000 times
the servo will advance 160,000 counts of its encoder, or one revolution. Easy.

Note that if I want my servo to do 3000rpm in my machine, that is 50 revs/sec then I would need to signal the drive 50 x 5000 =250,000 or 250kHz.
That is very much the top limit for single ended Step/Direction input and I really need to go to differential signalling. When the servo is doing 2000rpm
the signalling rate is a more modest 200kHz, within the capability of a single ended input and my machine is still doing 10m/min which is more than
fast enough for me.

P1-46 is the setting that determines the lines/rev number of the synthesized servo for monitoring purposes only. For instance you might have an external
monitor on your axis that requires 1000 pulses to read 10mm. If your ballscrew is 10mm pitch (conveniently) then you would set P1-46 = 250. The monitor
encoder output would then be 4 x 250 =1000 counts (or pulses) per rev, just right for your external monitor.

Note the the synthesized encoder output has NO BEARING on the internal operation of the native encoder nor the electronic gearing parameters that
accompany it.


Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 04, 2020, 08:08:25 PM
Craig-

Thanks so much for diving into the details of the electronic gears and such. I will read this over about 10 times and hopefully will be able to make it 'click'

I am going downstairs to the shop to see if I can get the electronic gearing and line count set.



As far as getting the pulse stream sorted-

I would like to try and use the existing single ended output 5vdc+ from my C25 board.

You reference this here

"If you set the electronic gearing parameters such that you don't require excessively high signalling rate to the drive, say less than 200kHz, then you DON'T NEED
differential signalling, single ended will be fine. The drive is expecting 24V signalling. I have a transistor between my BoB and the Step and Direction inputs of the drive."

Several questions on this part.

1. What should I set my Mach3 Kernel Speed to? I have successfully used 25,000Hz and 45,000Hz. The PC running Mach3 is an older dell outputting through ethernet to the ESS.
2. In the ESS main config page of the plugin, I can set the ESS controller frequency. Suggestion for a frequency that is under the speed which will allow me to have correct pulsing output for the Delta Drive.
3. The Delta manual here- file:///C:/Users/Nate%20Foerg/Desktop/DELTA_IA-ASD_B2CURRENT.pdf on page 3-18, the figure gives a list of options for which pins on the DB44 connector should be wired up depending upon wether or not you want to hook it up to high or low speed pulses, open collector, etc. I gather that you are suggesting that I use the one called Position Pulse (Input) this is the only one that appears to support the 200KHz freq. Assuming I am correct on this being the correct option, I am unclear on how I should be using the pins here-

########################################
Position Pulse (Input)
PULSE /PULSE SIGN /SIGN PULL HI
43 41 39 37 35
Position pulse can be inputted by Line Driver (single phase max. frequency 500KHz) or open-collector (single phase max. frequency 200 KHz). Three kinds of command type can be selected via P1-00, CW pulse + CCW pulse, pulse + direction, A pulse + B pulse. When position pulse uses opencollector, the terminal should be connected to an external applied power in order to pull high.
Wiring Diagram C3/C4
####################################

Yesterday when testing, I had the pins set as follows-
From BOB, pin 2 (mach3 step pin) running to PULSE pin 43.
From BOB, pin 3 (mach3 Direction pin) running to SIGN pin 39.
From BOB Ground pin running to /PULSE pin 41.
From BOB Ground pin running to /SIGN pin 37.

With these connections I was able to 'slightly' move the motor with Mach3.

As I write this, I am Starting to have things fall slightly into view... looks like I should be using wiring diagram C3/4 on page 3-28 of the Delta manual.

If so, I was close on my wiring yesterday, but without having an external power source applied to "the terminal" (whatever that is. best guess is its pin 35) if that's the case, the diagram looks as if VDC- is applied to pin 35. Not clear on this 'pulling up' concept. I sort of get how it works, but at least in this application, I am unsure how to wire the external power supply. I assume it must be 5VDC+, and that if I used higher power, like the 24VDC the diagram calls for, I might damage the BOB or ESS, if what I believe is correct. All the resistors shown in diagram C3/4 appear to be internal to the Servo Drive. At least thats how I read it. However, I only vaguely read electronic schematics.

I don't get how I can wire the BOB pins 2 & 3 (5VDC+ when active) to Pins 39 & 43 on the Delta drive, as the BOB does not appear to have any -VDC available for pin 37 & 43. I suppose I could use Ground on the BOB as the -VDC. Possibly that's what should be done?

Would be curious to know how a transistor works in your application? I am thinking you have it amplify your 5VDC+ up to 24VDC+ for the Delta Drive to Accept as a digital input?

Again, updating this as I read more about things, I have found this link very informative pertaining to Open Collector. https://www.evilmadscientist.com/2012/basics-open-collector-outputs/

Ok, off to the shop for a few hrs.

Thanks so much for chiming in on these matters. I am most appreciative.

Nate.



Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 04, 2020, 08:53:26 PM
Just wanted to add that after successfully getting the servo to Jog at various speeds, I am amazed by the silence, power and smoothness. The Smoothness compared to a stepper is off the charts.
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 04, 2020, 10:24:11 PM
Hi,

Quote
I would like to try and use the existing single ended output 5vdc+ from my C25 board.

Wrong answer, use the 0-5V signal to turn on the base of a signal transistor which in turns the drive input opto on and off.

Quote
What should I set my Mach3 Kernel Speed to? I have successfully used 25,000Hz and 45,000Hz

Immaterial, Machs kernel speed is to do with the parallel port and the ESS obviates the parallel port altogether. If you like the 'kernel'
speed with the ESS is 4MHz, that is the ultimate pulse speed of the ESS, a mere 160 times faster! Warp9 recommend leaving the kernel speed at 25kHz,
not that it should make any difference.

Quote
In the ESS main config page of the plugin, I can set the ESS controller frequency

I use Mach4 and the ESS Mach4 plugin is somewhat different however I think you are refering to the rate at which the ESS talks to Mach and is irrelevant
to driving servos. If the ESS was driving steppers before it will drive servos with virtually no alteration at all.

Will download the manual and have a closer look. Generally you use the built-in 24V supply within the drive to energise the input step/direction circuitry.
The choice of pins concerns the inclusion/exclusion of the series resistor within the drive. If you attempt to switch 24V (or even 5V) direct through the drive
input photodiode WITHOUT a series resistor somewhere in the circuit will blow the photodiode.

Quote
From BOB, pin 2 (mach3 step pin) running to PULSE pin 43.
From BOB, pin 3 (mach3 Direction pin) running to SIGN pin 39.
From BOB Ground pin running to /PULSE pin 41.
From BOB Ground pin running to /SIGN pin 37.

I think you may have miswired it. The output of the BoB (pin 2 or 3) is 5V, correct? You hooked that to the photodiode input (pin 39 or 43) without a series resistor,
and the other side of the photodiode (pins 37 or 41) to 0V. Thus the photodiode has to withstand the full 5V output of your BoB, you may have damaged it already.

When my drives turned up they had a sticker on the outside warning about the correct and alternate incorrect way to wire them....did you look at it, even save it?

Draw a circuit diagram of what you have done and post it. DO NOT HOOK ANY PHOTODIODE UP WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF A CURRENT LIMIT RESISTOR OR YOU WILL
DESTROY THE PHOTODIODE.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 12:15:40 AM
Well.. looks like you are right. I wired it up sans transistors and was not able to get any response from the drive. Jog still works, but it looks like I may have cooked the optos.

Fortunately there are replacement drives available affordably on ebay.

This drive/motor however can still be used just with the jog command at whatever speed I set in the parameters. So its not useless, it would make a great drive motor for a horizontal air bearing that I am converting to a rotary grinding (work) spindle for grinding bearing spacers and such on the surface grinder.

Alternately, the drive/motor could be used to power any number of things, a poiwer feed for example.

Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 05, 2020, 12:31:56 AM
Hi,
I wouldn't give up just yet.

I would us a battery, say 9V to drive a little current through the photodiode via a milliampmeter to see whether the photo diode is intact.
I may be possible to replace them if they are faulty.
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 01:11:48 AM
Nowhere near giving up. Rather, if the diodes are blown, I consider what I have learned so far to be well worth the cost.

I am seeing applications for as servos/drives everwhere now.
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 05, 2020, 03:05:05 AM
Hi,
referring to the attached picture from 3-27 of the manual.

Note that the internal 24V power supply is available at pin 17. Following the diagram you should direct connect pin 17 to pin 35.
With pin 35 now at 24V current can pass through the approx. 2kOhm resistor the 75 Ohm resistor, through the photodiode, through
the second 75 Ohm resistor to pin 37 and thence to the 24V COM at pin 14 via the transistor switch of your BoB or input circuit.
There is a second current path through the 2kOhm parallel resistor as well.

You can test the photodiode by having pins 17 and 35 connected as above. Then with your multimeter in ammeter mode probe
between pin 35 and pin 14. If the photodiode is intact I would expect a current of (24-2)/(2000 +75 +75)=10mA plus another
24/2000=12mA being the current through the 2kOhm parallel resistor, for a total of 22mA. If the photodiode is open circuit
you'll see only 12mA.

Note that Delta have an anti-parallel diode across the photodiode. This prevents a large reverse bias from ever being presented to the photodiode.
Photodiodes are notoriously poor at resisting reverse bias, they tend to go into destructive avalanche breakdown, hence the anti-parallel diode
is precautionary. You can test it in identical manner to the photodiode. Connect pin 17, not to pin 35, but rather pin 37. Now with your multimeter
still in ammeter mode probe between pin 35 and pin 14. If the anti-parallel diode is OK you should see about 22-24mA. If its open circuit
you'll see only 12mA.

I bought three 750W B2 series and drives, brand new, for $520 each (including $80 three day DHL shipping to New Zealand) several months ago.
In short you should be able to buy a NEW driver for around $200 plus shipping. I wouldn't be messing around with second hand at that price.

Quote
I am seeing applications for as servos/drives everwhere now.

Modern AC servos have such a wealth of control options, including step/direction position mode, analogue velocity and torque modes, a variety
of index modes (position and velocity), and secondary modes as well. Thus you could have your servo running in position mode as its primary function,
yet by controlling one digital input to the drive, it can switch to velocity mode. They are just so flexible they can be used in so many circumstances.

To date the price of AC servos have prevented many hobbyists from experimenting with them but Delta and DMM are two brands of GOOD quality
at very fair prices. There are even cheaper Chinese made servos and drives and while less is known about the quality and backup of these
cheaper brands many who have used them are reporting good success. Over the coming years more and more hobbyists are going to take advantage
of the performance benefits.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 05, 2020, 03:35:57 AM
Hi,
sorry forgot to attach the picture.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 12:23:59 PM
Morning! or whatever time it is in New Zealand!

I have ordered a transistor assortment off amazon. Should be here tomorrow or friday.

In the interim, I am going to pull a transistor off of some old defunct electronics. I think I have an old Zylotex board that has transistors.

Will see if I can dig one up for testing.

If, as I believe it is, relatively simple to get mach to talk to a servo drive (even though I have failed thus far, I can see it is very possible) then I cant figure out shy everyone has not adopted servos.

If a G203V costs 140USD, decent stepper costs 100USD and ESS cost 180USD, add to that a large DC power supply at 200USD, The stepper cost to drive one axis is 620USD. adding a 2nd axis brings the total up to 860USD. Not really cheap at all.

I can buy 2 new servos and drives for somewhere around 600USD, Add a ESS for 180USD, and the first axis costs 480USD, and adding a second brings the total to 780USD. Actually cheaper than the stepper setup.

At 3+ axis's the math changes to favor steppers. If cost minimization is the goal


If my math is even close to correct, their is no compelling reason to use steppers anymore. Servos are now affordable and seem to be vastly superior motors/drives.


Am I crazy, or am i seeing this correctly?

Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 01:44:49 PM
##################
Note that the internal 24V power supply is available at pin 17. Following the diagram you should direct connect pin 17 to pin 35.
With pin 35 now at 24V current can pass through the approx. 2kOhm resistor the 75 Ohm resistor, through the photodiode, through
the second 75 Ohm resistor to pin 37 and thence to the 24V COM at pin 14 via the transistor switch of your BoB or input circuit.
There is a second current path through the 2kOhm parallel resistor as well.

You can test the photodiode by having pins 17 and 35 connected as above. Then with your multimeter in ammeter mode probe
between pin 35 and pin 14. If the photodiode is intact I would expect a current of (24-2)/(2000 +75 +75)=10mA plus another
24/2000=12mA being the current through the 2kOhm parallel resistor, for a total of 22mA. If the photodiode is open circuit
you'll see only 12mA.
########################


Per your sugesstion above, I have used my cheap digital MM to check what I think is mA, on the meter it is marked 200m. this appears to be in the A_--- range. I am not positive about this, but this is the only setting which appears to me mA.

The range specs are here-
Specifications:
DC Current: 200μA/2mA/20mA ±(1.0%+2), 200mA ±(1.5%+2); 10A ±(3%+2)

wioth 17 and 35 connected (24vdc+ is present from drive pin 17) I have tried reading across pins 35 and 14,  and I get nothing until I hit the 200mA range and then the drive clicks, displays the drive model ASDAB2 on the drive screen. The meter appears to read 124 at this time, and as I continue reading it, the number starts dropping at a fairly quick rate. I suspect if I continued holding the meter leads in  place it might take a minute or two for the numbers to hit zero. Just a guess though, I did not test this theory.

by the way, the warning sticker that you referred to was on the drive. It looked important, but wasd not sure in waht way, so I stuck it to the dide of the drive for later use.

This brings me to the question of the resistors. I am not clear on where the resistors are in the real world. are the 2kohm and 75 ohm resistors contained in the asdab2 drive? thats the way the delta schematic and warni ng stiucker look to me, but I am really starting to suspect the resistors NOT contained inside the drive, but rather I must provide and hook them up external to the drive.

I really wish I had not read the CX-X wiring diagrams as having the resistors, diodes and transistors as being contained inside the drive. This is what happens when you have little understanding of electronics. But hey.. gotta learn somehow.


Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 02:05:17 PM
I was using wiring diagram C3/4, and the one you provided is C3/1. Glad to know I was suing the wrong diagram.

Looking at the correct diagram, the one you provided, it aopears that their are 8 resistors, 4 diodes and 2 transistors (if I read schematic correctly) I am thinking that these are not inside the drive. Am I correct in that?

The transistors look to be NPN. if I read the symbol correctly.

The diodes are either line diodes or photodiodes according to the way I interpret the symbols. I am thinking photodiodes as their has been discussion of them and if I have cooked them or not.

The diagram C3/1 also has a dashed (dotted) line around a diode and transistor, shown twice on the diagram, one for each for SIGN and PULSE. what is the meaning of the dashed line? does it denote something obvious to most, but that alludes me due to the fact that I clearly cannot read electronics schematics?



Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 02:24:31 PM
Additionally, if I am reading the symbol correctly inside the box marked controller on the drigram C3/1, it appears to show a transistor. Does not have the circle around it, but thats what the symbol looks like.

I am trying to wrap my mind around the "flow" of the diagram.

Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 02:27:16 PM
Looks like the diagram you created explains SO MUCH. I see how the resistors and transistors are wired now. YAY.
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 02:30:34 PM
What value NPN transistor should I select for connection as shown in the hand done diagram you created?
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 05, 2020, 02:59:25 PM
Hi,

Quote
I have tried reading across pins 35 and 14,  and I get nothing until I hit the 200mA range and then the drive clicks

My apologies, I did specify pins 35 and 14, but I meant pins 37 and 14. By using a ammeter from 35 to 14 is effectively shorting the internal power supply
to 0V, please don't do it again. I'm hoping that the reducing current is an overcurrent limit device within the drive.

Follow the circuit of the picture:
pin 17= 24V output to pin 35, through the resistors and photo diode to pin 37, through you ammeter to pin 14 0V return.

Quote
This brings me to the question of the resistors. I am not clear on where the resistors are in the real world. are the 2kohm and 75 ohm resistors contained in the asdab2 drive?

Yes they are. My bum steer (pin 35 rather than pin 37) might lead you to believe they are not in circuit but if you retest but with the correct pin
you will 'see' the resistance. Again my apologies....measure the current between pins 37 an 14 for the direction photodiode and pins 41 and 14 for
the step photodiode.

I would not worry about transistors until you have established that the photodiodes are intact. Any small signal NPN transistor will do,
I used BC547's. Even a small MOSFET like a 2N7000 would work.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 06:48:59 PM
Good News! I think...

I hooked pin 17 to 35. and hooking my black probe up to pin 14, and the red probe (with meter in 200M scale) I get 22.8 from reading pin 14 to 37 and 14 to 41.

If I follow you correctly, I have just confirmed the photo diodes for SIGN and PULSE are operational, by finding 22.8 Mohms resistance across the internal resistors and photo-diodes.
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 07:07:31 PM
I am thinking that if I now hook up a 1Kohm resistor to the output of my bobs step and direction pins, and then to pins 37 and 41,  then hook up my BOB's ground to the ASDA drives pin 14, I would have a way to test the drive again under Mach3 control.

Just checked, no dice. Did not see any response from the drive.

Thinking about all you have written and rereading it time and time again (thank you so much btw) I am thinking that if the photo-diodes are still working (believe verified) then possibly its that I am missing the transistors. because the drive does not want 5vdc signal. It wasnts 24vdc, or as close as I can get to that.

Seems to me their are resistors for current limiting to the photo-diodes, and resistors to act as the 'pull up'  then, and transistors are to amplify the 5vdc signal that is input into the ASDA drive. Then the ASDA drive 'sees' thew amplified voltage, if the voltage is in a range that ASDA will accept, then the drive will respond to the imput.

Do I have this somewhat correct?

What is the job of the photo-diodes? I am thinking they provide a means of insuring the pins 37 and 41 are unable to allow any current, signal or voltage from being accidentally output from the drives pins 37 and 41 and thus to the machine controller. I am also thinking that if their were a failure of the drive that could send dangerous voltage through 37 and 41(somehow), that the photo-diodes provide opto-isolation so that nothing can be output past the photo-diodes and out of the drive to the controller thus making things much safer. But hey, these are just my best guesses.

Thanks so so much for your input! I am grateful for your time and effort.
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 05, 2020, 07:11:58 PM
Hi,
just to confirm you are using the 200mA scale. The measurement you are taking has nothing to do with resistance, its a measure of
current.

Usually there are three, maybe four input sockets on a multimeter. The Com, is the black one. The V/Ohm red one is to the right.
The two current input terminals are to the left, one (fuse protected) is up to 200mA and the other, depending on the model is not
fuse protected and up to 10A

One multimeter lead should be in the COM socket and the other in the 200mA socket with the selector dial on 200mA DC.

It sounds like you are reading 22.8mA, which is good news as it suggests that the photodiodes are intact.

Just as a comparison please put the multimeter lead from the 200mA socket to the V/Ohm socket and with the dial set to 20kOHM
measure the resistance between pins 35 and 37 with the drive de-powered. I would expect a shade under 2kOhm.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 05, 2020, 07:26:05 PM
Hi,

Quote
Do I have this somewhat correct?

No you don't!. Delta drives are INDUSTRIAL grade, they are intended for 24V inputs, excepting differential modes.....but we are not talking
differential modes here.....we are talking single ended.

Your BoB is 5V output as is common with hobby grade controllers...and a 5V output is not going to work on a drive that is expecting a 24V
input. That is the true purpose of the discrete transistors in the diagram that I posted. The 5V bob output via a 1k (approx.) resistor to the
base of an NPN transistor will be any amount enough current to turn the transistor hard on. The transistor when conducting hard on will
cause the current to flow from pin 37 to pin 14 and thereby illuminate the photodiode.

You need six transistors, say BC 547's and six 1kOhm or 1.5kOhm resistors for a three axis machine. You could alternately use 2N7000 MOSFET's
which would not require the 1kOhm resistor to make it even simpler. I would recommend a little vero-board or similar to solder it together.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 05, 2020, 07:29:47 PM
Hi,

Quote
No you don't!. Delta drives are INDUSTRIAL grade, they are intended for 24V inputs, excepting differential modes.....but we are not talking
differential modes here.....we are talking single ended.

I'm sorry I've just re-read your post and YES you are correct, the transistor I have depicted allows your 5V BoB to turn on and off the 24V
photodiode circuit.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 07:40:19 PM
Checking the Resistance withg the 20Ohm scale on my meter with Com correct and the Red probe connected to the 200mA, when I check resistence I get 1.28

I think this is in line with your prediction of under 2Kom
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 05, 2020, 07:41:42 PM
Hi,
the photodiode is part of the opto-isolator of the pulse input circuit of the drive. When the photodiode is illuminated the phototransistor
is turned on and a pulse is signalled to the drive. Note that it is light signalled, there is no electrical or galvanaic connection to the internals
of the drive. This is to prevent a voltage mismatch at the input damaging the drive logic and microprocessor. That terminals provided
to the photodiode allow for included resistors when using single ended 24V signalling and much lower resistance (50Ohm approx.) when
using 5V differential signalling.

The only downside of having the two options id that you could miswire the inputs and therefore apply 24V to the photodiode WITHOUT the
benefit of the larger (2kOhm) resistors and thereby damage the photodiodes.

Believe it or not single ended signalling is much easier to understand and implement....and you should definitely do that BEFORE you attempt
differential signalling.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 05, 2020, 07:44:21 PM
Hi,

Quote
Checking the Resistance withg the 20Ohm scale on my meter with Com correct and the Red probe connected to the 200mA, when I check resistence I get 1.28

I think this is in line with your prediction of under 2Kom

This does not make sense.

One multimeter lead should be in the COM socket and the other lead in the V/Ohm socket with the dial set to 20 kOhm scale. Please repeat the
measurement and confirm the connections to your meter.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 10:39:17 PM
So, looks like the photodiodes checkout. I have rechecked my multi meter porb connections and made sure its set up to measure current. set to 200m on the dial, With the drive enabled, pin 17 connected to 35, and connecting the black porobe to the pin 14 (common), and the red probe to pins 37 and 41 respectively, I get readings of 22.5mA

Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 10:48:08 PM
I have done as you suggest here-

"Just as a comparison please put the multimeter lead from the 200mA socket to the V/Ohm socket and with the dial set to 20kOHM
measure the resistance between pins 35 and 37 with the drive de-powered. I would expect a shade under 2kOhm."

I using the 20k ohm setting. I get .88 measured between pins 35 and 37.
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: natefoerg on February 05, 2020, 11:05:43 PM
Does it appear to you that I have not toasted the photodiodes? given the measurements I have listed above.

My apologies. I think I was mixing up A and O because I was skiping around so much trying to wrap my head around things. thus creating confusion for you that was unnecessary. Rest assured that I am doing my best to not waste your time and am not trying to be lazy and just ask for everything done for me. I am so happy that I am finally learning this stuff. Its been a dream of mine for years to understand things like resistors, diodes, transistors, timers, ics, etc. I only know enpough to be dangerous, but whole heartedly want to get to a place where I am proficient in basic electronics, plc's, servo drives, communication etc. My strongest interest in life is machine tools (particularly Parker Majestic, Moore and Monarch) so understanding the electronics operating everything and how they do it will give me a better understanding of the whole thing. I get the mechanical side of things fairly well. I can correct geometry with scraping and rebuild spindles and such, but have onle ever had a vauge understanding of how 'real' machines work.

Hobby control I am familiar with. Running industrial controlled machines I have done, but knowing how the industrial machines work is a whole other level of understanding I have a strong desire to achieve.



BTW, I was careful not to short out the internal 24dc like I did before. I thought the clicking sounded 're-set-ish' and so I pulled the meter leads after short observation. fortunately the protective circuitry appears to have saved me.

Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 05, 2020, 11:35:45 PM
Hi,

Quote
Does it appear to you that I have not toasted the photodiodes? given the measurements I have listed above.

No, I think they are OK. Delta is a good brand and while its not impossible to blow them up they are well designed
and do not fail as a result of the usual misadventures they suffer.

Quote
BTW, I was careful not to short out the internal 24dc like I did before. I thought the clicking sounded 're-set-ish' and so I pulled the meter leads after short observation. fortunately the protective circuitry appears to have saved me.

I agree, and am glad because it was my mistake the induced you to do it. I think this is a case in point of what I mean above. Delta has made design
provision that the supply could be shorted WITHOUT causing failure where another cheaper brand may not have.

Delta drives are not hugely expensive but I'm sure I don't want to damage mine any more than you wish to damage yours, so it behoves
us to be a little cautious about wiring them up.

I will draw a circuit diagram that may hopefully clear up some of the confusion.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3, Delta ASDA-B2, ESS. 12 straight hours working on this. could use assist..
Post by: joeaverage on February 06, 2020, 12:58:03 AM
Hi,
I have drawn a somewhat simplified circuit diagram for one pulse input of your drive.

With reference to the attached diagram:

If you apply +24V at pin35 and 0V at pin 37 current will flow through the 2k parallel resistor R4, and through R3, R1, the photodiode, R2.
Note that the forward bias voltage drop of the photodiode is 2V.
The current is:
I= 24/2000 (through R4) +(24-2)/(2000+75+75) (through the forward biased photodiode)
 =22.3mA

If you powered the photodiode by applying +24V to pin39 and 0V to pin 37 the current would be:
I=(24-2)/(75+75)
=147mA and the photodiode would be destroyed within micro seconds.

If you power the photodiode by applying +5V to pin 39 and 0V to pin 37 the current is:
I=(5-2)/(75+75)
 =20mA which is entirely acceptable.

The termination of pin 39 allows the use of differential signal which can turn the photodiode on and off rather faster
than using 24V at terminal 35.

What must be avoided is the application of greater than 5V between pins 39 and 37 or the photodiode will blow.
My contention is that the first arrangement, namely using the in-built 24V supply at pins 17 and 14, and pins 35 and 37
of the photodiode input circuit is easier and more forgiving than differential signalling and even 200k pulses per second is
still very fast indeed.

Maybe at a later date you will want to try differential signalling, if you are demanding even faster axis speeds and/or higher resolution,
but for now stick with single ended signalling.

Craig