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Author Topic: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"  (Read 22553 times)

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Offline simpson36

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Re: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2014, 08:49:35 AM »
Simpson36
When using Analogue command the drive is basically being used as an amplifier,  the CSMIO/IP-A  looks at the encoder feedback and decides how much voltage to send to the drives analogue command input to maintain the correct position/speed/time.
Hood

Yes, I can see now from the 'response from CSMIO' posting that they are taking the encoder echo off the drive. The drive is going to be in the loop so there is potential for conflicts. In applications where the servo motor might be mechanically locked, the Mitsu has a specific feature to prevent faulting (the IP-A would continue to ramp up the juice because it does not see the encoder count changing). Eventually (generally within a few seconds) this escalates to a fault. If there will be a locked axis condition, the solution is found in the PC (proportional Control) feature. That's a pretty big topic, so I won't go into it unless someone needs it.

General notes for the user RE: echoed encoder data

Be aware that the encoder output of the drive is configurable in the parameters so that must be addressed. Like step multipliers on the step/dir side, there will be a default value and the drive is going to use that value so it cannot be ignored.

Presumably the IP-A also will require configuration to tell it how to relate encoder counts to movement (pulses per inch, or equiv). Probably you will also need to pay attention to the speed at which the IP-A can take in the encoder data. This should be one of the specs. If you exceed the input capabilities, there is no 'standard' reaction. Each device is different. A J2S for example, will simply stop. It occurs to me that analogue input would not have this issue at all, so advantage analogue.

The basic calc is to determine your maximum motor speed and select an encoder output count that is as high as possible without exceeding the IP-A's read speed . . . with some margin for safety. The Mitsu electronics are uber fast and for example a J3 has over 200,000 counts PER rev encoder. Multiply that by 6,000 RPM and you get a very big number that will overwhelm most devices. The  J2S is not as high, but still can outpace a lot of, if not most, typical CNC stuff.

Also, and this presumes the IP-A takes in differential signals, be sure to use shielded twisted pair cable. The 'Z' designator on the diagram indicated a twisted pair. It is important to have the two wires from a pair on the same signal. Don't mix things up. It is best to use cable that has both a foil shield and also a braid shield and if possible, with each pair separately shielded in foil as well.  If the IP-A inputs are anywhere near as sensitive at the Mitsu, you will benefit from the extra expense of fully shielded cable.

To avoid creating a ground loop. connect only one end of the cable shieling to the device ground. Unless there is a compelling reason not to do so, I would ground the shields to the IP-A and check for lack of continuity at the drive is you use shielded connector or better yet use an unshielded connector at the drive to eliminate the possibility of accidental contact between the cable shielding and the drive ground.

I know this is 'CNC Wiring 101' stuff, but perhaps it will be useful to nubees who may read the thread.




 
Re: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2014, 11:11:10 AM »
I will try using the encoder pass through first and see how the motor calibration deals with it - I believe this is how CSMIO suggested to hook up in the manual.

The digital inputs are opto isolated already, I'll take a look at the others also.
Do you have a recommendation for a BOB or just protoboard the relays/optos?
In my previous hobby machines I just used protoboards but this is more of a industrial build.

Have not looked much at the spindle controller yet - will take a look on the weekend. Its a FEB controller and Jagger drive (maybe 24V) with 8 tool position from what I recall.

Offline Hood

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Re: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2014, 06:10:02 PM »
As the IP-A is din rail mount then it is probably a good idea to stick to that system for other components. You can get individual din rail mount relays and also you can get relay boards that are din rail mount, lastly you could use proto board and buy a din mount tray to fit it in which makes it look more professional. Below are pics of all 3 that I have used in the Chiron (proto is not relay, just connectors)

Hood

Offline Hood

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Re: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2014, 02:28:46 PM »
Forgot to mention regarding the encoder inputs of the IP-A. They can handle 4MHz if I recall correctly, my encoders are set to 24,000 ppr for X, Y and Z which equates to 1.6MHz and on the spindle it is set to 32,768 which equates to just over 2MHz.

Hood
Re: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2014, 03:21:11 PM »
Yesterday I took out the old controller, limits board, safety module since there are no documentation for any those from the manufacturer (Wietech). Labelled all wires I could follow back. Re-routed some wiring and general clean up. Ordered the MRD-20pin connectors for the Mitsu interfaces and an eight output 24V opto-relay board. This machine is from Germany and they had a 360V 3-phase external transformer with the machine, each AC component (motor drives, spindle controller, ...) are wired to a single phase with neutral so actually using 180V. I will be eliminating the transformer and go directly to 220V 2-phase since each component label states it can do 220V. Maybe they used 180V to account for the 50Hz vs 60Hz. Even the Mitsu drives were wired for single phase instead of three phase so using 180V.

Z-axis Mitsu motor turned out is different than the others, it has connector for encoder at rear and motor power at front then another two wire connector in-between. Haven't seen any Mitsu documentation about this type and cannot read the label without disassembling much of the Z-axis components. Searching for documentation on that one.

Took off remaining covers to get to the spindle controller and its made by F5 and rated at 220V (single or three phase); Searching for documentation on that one.

Jagger spindle has a pneumatic jaw for the tool changer with a round eight pin connector. Engraving on the collar that says 23V, 7Amp, 2-pol, 60000; Searching for documentation on that also.

Will start to re-wire the basics first: AC breaker, power on timer delay and Pilz safety switch.

Holding off ordering the CSMIO till everything else is in place.
Re: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2014, 03:01:33 PM »
Quick update -  Rewired most components for 220V and they power on ok. Got enough details on the spindle+controller to get those running. Moving on to getting at least one Mitsu drive+motor moving with simple +/- 10v control supply. One of the motors is giving encoder error at power up on the drive display so looking to order replacement.
Still waiting for opto/relay board to arrive. Should be ordering the CSMIO this week.
(Work has been really busy so only getting to this on the weekends)
Re: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2014, 01:58:34 AM »
Yesterday I took out the old controller, limits board, safety module since there are no documentation for any those from the manufacturer (Wietech). Labelled all wires I could follow back. Re-routed some wiring and general clean up. Ordered the MRD-20pin connectors for the Mitsu interfaces and an eight output 24V opto-relay board. This machine is from Germany and they had a 360V 3-phase external transformer with the machine, each AC component (motor drives, spindle controller, ...) are wired to a single phase with neutral so actually using 180V. I will be eliminating the transformer and go directly to 220V 2-phase since each component label states it can do 220V. Maybe they used 180V to account for the 50Hz vs 60Hz. Even the Mitsu drives were wired for single phase instead of three phase so using 180V.

Z-axis Mitsu motor turned out is different than the others, it has connector for encoder at rear and motor power at front then another two wire connector in-between. Haven't seen any Mitsu documentation about this type and cannot read the label without disassembling much of the Z-axis components. Searching for documentation on that one.

Took off remaining covers to get to the spindle controller and its made by F5 and rated at 220V (single or three phase); Searching for documentation on that one.

Jagger spindle has a pneumatic jaw for the tool changer with a round eight pin connector. Engraving on the collar that says 23V, 7Amp, 2-pol, 60000; Searching for documentation on that also.

Will start to re-wire the basics first: AC breaker, power on timer delay and Pilz safety switch.

Holding off ordering the CSMIO till everything else is in place.

The two wire connector on the Z Axis is for a brake.  The brake operates on 24VDC.  There is no polarity for the two wires (can be wired: +,-   or -,+).  There are a few parameters relating to the brake.  Also, Mitsubishi suggests using a separate 24VDC power supply for the brake only.  I suspect the brake circuit causes noise.  The brake uses less than 1 amp if I remember correctly.

Offline simpson36

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Re: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2014, 08:11:31 AM »

The two wire connector on the Z Axis is for a brake.  The brake operates on 24VDC.  There is no polarity for the two wires (can be wired: +,-   or -,+).  There are a few parameters relating to the brake.  Also, Mitsubishi suggests using a separate 24VDC power supply for the brake only.  I suspect the brake circuit causes noise.  The brake uses less than 1 amp if I remember correctly.


The brake does not cause noise. The problem is that any coil creates a big spike when it is shut off. You will note in the Mitsu manual they show a diode in the output wiring. This is to dissipate the spike, however, when directly connected to the output, this is like playing with a white tiger on stage . . . usually everything goes well.  :)

I recommend a separate power supply for ANY device that has a coil. I use a separate 24V power supply for the brakes, contactors and solenoid operated valves, for example. One of my products includes a solenoid (coil) operated pneumatic valve. I make a special relay that has the diodes mentioned above, but still use a separate PS for the valves. The relay is solid state and isolates the 24V from the 5V CNC side. (relay is not for sale separately).

This may have been posted earlier, but it bears repeating. My advice is to run the outputs thru an opto to isolate the Mitsu (or other industrial drive) from anything that can hurt it.

The most important thing to remember about the drive outputs is that they are not current limited so grounding an output (which is 'ON') without running thru resistance will instantly fry the output. In order to make it impossible for customers to fry outputs on these very expensive drives, I made a custom interface board that contains a 400 ohm power resistor and optos. This is also not available for sale separately, but you don't need a fancy board to make up the simple circuit.

Just run the output thru a 400ohm power resistor to an opto or SSR and back to the Mitsu signal ground. Then  use the other side of the opto or relay to switch power to the device you want to control. The 400 ohm resistor will keep the current below the spec max, and the SSR or opto will isolate the drive electronics. You can still add a diode to the coil side of the circuit to keep from frying the SSR or opto.

Last tip; do not use mechanical relays. They make lots of noise.
Re: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2014, 11:13:39 AM »
Lots more stuff to consider   ???
Thanks for the details on the brake. Is it common to see a brake on the z-axis?

simpson36, where in the manual did you see details of wiring the brake? Could not find it. Are you selling the boards you mentioned?
I may start with the opto/relay boards that are already ordered but agree mechanical contacts can provide noise so will update once when I can.

Re: Please help W/ Mitsubishi MR-J2S and MACH 3 "PLEASE"
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2014, 04:58:41 PM »
Hi All,
Happy holidays and best wishes for the New Year to everyone!

Got the IP-A little while back (took almost three weeks by courier!) and started installing over the holidays. Still waiting on DIN rails to mount it permanently and a rail mounted volt/amp meter for monitoring machine AC line draw so just testing single axis for now. Started with the A-axis for simplicity and can move it around. Need to tweak the DAC settings since it tends to rotate slowly when emergency is activated with stand still 0.16V on the analog output instead of 0V. Making up the harnesses for one of the linear axis next. Will update once I have that going.

vw