Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: wirsboguy on November 21, 2012, 07:19:50 PM
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Hi, I have Mitsubishi servo's and drives, the drives are MR-J2S. Do I need a motion controller or just a breakout board to get this up and running? I want to use Mach 3 and have been confused by alot of "advice". Thank you for any assistance you can provide me with the wiring, and other hardware needed.
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You could use them with the PP via a breakout but there are a few drawbacks.
1. The step/dir input will almost certainly be differential capable. You may be able to connect single ended but in my opinion you should use differential if at all possible.
2. I/O of the drives will likely be 12-30v so interfacing with the PP would require relays or similar.
3. Encoders will likely be 2000- 2500 count so you would need to use electronic gearing in the drives to get reasonable rapids, that however will lose you resolution and if a high value of gearing is used there is a possibility of cogging at very low revs.
Personally I would look at some of the available controllers, my choic3e would be the ones from CS-Lab as they are geared more towards industrial end control having 24v I/O, Differential Step/Dir, Index Homing capability, Analogue I/O etc.
Hood
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The Manual should tell you everything you need to know. Give it a read.
Just a thought, (;-) TP
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I have read the manual, several times, Unfortunately I do not have the knowledge (yet) to decipher it.
I have come to the conclussion that it needs -10v to +10v in the speed mode or -8v to +8v in the torgue mode. How do I supply the signal ?
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The drives should accept Step/Dir unless I am mistaken.
Hood
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Just had a look at the manual for the drives that I have here and it says they will accept Step/Dir or as they call it Pulse Train + Sign. See pic.
Hood
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Sorry, but step/dir is not mentioned in those terms, maybe I just don't understand.
Here is a link to the manual....http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=mr-2js%20manual&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.consys.ru%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fdocuments%2FMR-J2S-A2_Instruction_manual.pdf&ei=HcCvUN_hNsS_yQG3woGwBg&usg=AFQjCNEiFCi-0UEIRVopYVlcsUW7psTPWQ
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Please look at my last post ;)
Hood
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You were one step ahead of me.. thanks, so, does this mean I can use any breakout board to achieve this?
Any preferance on BOBs' ?
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Ok hang on a minute, you say its the S version in your post but link to the A manual, A I think means Analogue where S means its capable of position. Which do you have?
Hood
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Ok I was wrong there, seems the A is not analogue only, think thats Yaskawa that does things that way.
If you give me the exact model of drive I will say for sure if it can accept Step/Dir
Hood
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Yes, they are the S version.
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It all depends on what type of performance you are wanting from them, if you want to get the best out of these drives/motors then I would go with one of the CSMIO products as they will help you interface to these drives much more easily.
The CSMIO/IP-M is the lower end version with only 4 axis and 100KHz pulsing but it would work out almost as cheap as getting a decent BOB but will give you the benefit of analogue I/O and differential Step/Dir and also 24v I/O.
If wanting more performance then the IP-S would be a better choice. All depends on what type of machine you will be using them on I suppose.
Hood
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model is Mitsubishi MR-J2S-40A
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Yes they will be fine.
Hood
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Wow, see there, you got a lot of responses already!
Mitsubishi drives (and to a degree, all industrial drives) are tricky to interface with Mach becuase they use 24V signals . . except for the step/dir . . which are 5V differential.
You can run the step/dir single ended as shown in the manual if you follow the diagram precisely, however, since you have to drag out the soldering iron and some chips, you may as well do the coversion to differential.
What is a differential signal and why is it good?
A differential signal is one in which the signal is divided into a positive and matching negative voltage on separate lines which are twisted together in the cable. The theory is that any interference picked up will be picked up equally by both wires. Since the wires are opposite voltages, the inteference will automatically cancel at the recieving end. This is why CAT5 and CAt6 cabling can be unshielded I am told. If I have this wrong, some of the electron guys can chime in and correct or add to what I have said.
Back to the Mitsu; what you have to be VERY careful of is that the OUTPUT side of the drive is not protected and is very easy to overload . . i.e. magic smoke . . bye bye drive. The manual has clear diagrams on how to connect loads to the outputs, but it also assumes that the reader understands the concepts and can do the calculations needed so while there IS a diagram, there is little else in the way of instruction or guidance for the novice.
A very large problem is that there are posts in the CNCzone forum that detail exactly how to wire the Mitsu . . incorrectly . . and following those instructions will instantly fry your drive.
The method I took was to develop interface boards that isolate the 24V Mitsu signal from the 5V TTL BOB signals. The Mistu can be configured different ways, but I chose to have the signals be 'ON' when they are grounded back to the Mitsu. Here is one of those places where RTFM is in order if the options are interesting to you.
So, in a nutshell, I run the Mitsu OUPUT signals to an opto isolated 'switch' which then takes the BOB's own 5V signal and sends it back to the BOB. The Opto draws an infinitesimal amount of power which cannot hurt the Mitsu output and it 'switches' the BOB input on and off. A side benfit of this scheme is that teh voltage difference is taken care of and the drive is completely isolated from any 'events' which may occur in the BOB . . for example an incorrectly installed solenoid or other coil.
On the input (top the drive) side I do the same, but in reverse. The 5V BOB signal goes to the input side of the opto and the 'switch' side of the opto in turn routs the Mitsu 24V signals to the MITSU ground . . note do not mix or connect the signal grounds. DO ground the Mistu drive FRAME to the CNC earth ground.
The same methodology applies to the Mitsu J2S and the newer Mitsu J3. The only difference being the J2S has its own internal 24V supply whereas you ahve to supply the 24V to the J3. Here are the interface boards:
(http://www.thecubestudio.com/InTurnMotorController/BoardStackRev7WEB.jpg)
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Simpson have you seen the CSMIO controllers, they make interfacing Industrial hardware a breeze :) Its one of the reasons I never continued with the diff, 24vI/O bob I was going to be making for myself.
Hood
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Simpson have you seen the CSMIO controllers, they make interfacing Industrial hardware a breeze :) Its one of the reasons I never continued with the diff, 24vI/O bob I was going to be making for myself.
Hood
No, but I'll check it out. Thanks! Making PCB was fun at first and I was all amazed with myself that I could make them . . but now that I over that initial euphoria, it is just another task . . and a PIA at that.
I have the Digital Signal Synthesizer, the Swapaxis function and the Differential driver all combined on one board. This eliminated a ton or wiring and also some noise issues. I'll be keeping that board, but it would be nice to have a BOB with the 24V I/O built in. If the I/O is isolated, I would be up for trying one out, especially if they have additional I/O beyond the two PP assignments. I think you mentioned analog inputs as well? That might be useful.
A Pokeys board is sitting on my desk, but I have only had time to fire it up and see if it would solve my I/O problem and it seems it will, but I do not have tome right now to work on the task I have in mind for it.
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I took a peek at the CSMIO and it looks like a great product. I would need the 6 axis version and an extra IO module to duplicate what I have now and the cost would be US$850 for that setup.
While I despise the USB smoothstepper that I am using, I don't think I hate it $850 worth at this point. I have not been able to spend time keeping even semi-current on the new Ethernet smoothstepper, but I recall that early reports were all favorable. If the new smoothstepper is a good part, then there would need to be some compelling reason to spend 3 or 4 times that cost for the CSMIO.
I am currently using 5 axis + spindle and might be adding another axis shortly, so the low(er) cost 4 axis CSMIO is unfortunately not an option for my application.
It looks to be an interesting option to consider for my new mill which will be built hopefully early next year.
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The ESS is a much nicer product than the SS, I still think the SS was good and I never really had any of the issues others seemed to have. One thing that still bugs me about the ESS is the step/dir spindle control still has its glitches and I waited a long time for it to be sorted but unfortunately it never was. It may get done at some point but when I have no idea.
Regarding the CSMIO, yes it is more expensive but when you look at what you get it starts to look cheaper. Firstly everything is integrated into nice din rail mountable boxes. You have the spindle control built in, the Analogue inputs built in, plenty I/O with expansion capability, differential Step/Dir etc etc. When you start to add up a ESS, a dual port breakout, spindle controller (if analogue spindle) means of getting analogue ins for FRO etc, line drivers, conversion boards for 24v I/O then it doesnt seem to be quite as expensive in my view. Also there seem to be more possibilities, rigid tapping I think will be one of them, already the encoder module for threading takes the spindle encoder in and even altering the spindle override whist threading the axis seems to track it very well. I have just got the wee lathes axis wired today and I managed to do a test for threading whilst altering the Spindle Override and it looked good, still a few potential hurdles to overcome but things seem to be progressing, Heres a vid of the wee lathe tested today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC1PK6uD26U
Hood
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Any experience or opinions with the Apollo board?
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Regarding the CSMIO, yes it is more expensive but when you look at what you get it starts to look cheaper. Hood
You make excellent arguments as always, but I did not intend to imply that the product was not worth the price for a new install, only that it is not justifiable to replace what I already have which is working OK. Certainly is is an option I will look at along with Kflop and whatever else might be around when it comes time to set up my new mill. The only thing that is certain is that I am sticking with Mitsubishi drives (and motors). Everything else (including MACH) is in the crosshairs.
Incidentally, to the OP and anyone else interested, the interface board sets that I make are $50 for the set of three boards; 4 circuit input, 4 circuit output and e-stop collector or swapaxis. I can't make one set at a time or accommodate individual requests, but I am scheduled to make a batch of InTurn™ controllers in the first or second week of December to go with the the new 4th axis that are shipping soon. I can make up extra boards at that time. Send me a PM if interested.
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I know Old post! just wonder if there any progress ?
I use this Mitsu J2 drives in my 4 axis mill for 5 years now. Configured in position mode, step direction, similar to Simpson's ( not as nice looking :-) interface boards, I made point to point on prototype pcb with sink Fet switch's from parallel port no differential output needed frequency low and short wires ( can use screened cables) 4 Mitsu drives and all in old PC box, with correct grounding, no trouble at all.
P.S. on multi-axis Mitsu adaptive servo loop tuning not bad but axis coordination in 3d milling all-over the place! Manual tuning of J2S is a big pain!
Hens I'm working on Galil DMC4080+ Mitsu in Torque mode project.
(http://flic.kr/p/hDhium)
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Hi All,
Looking at several threads about the CSMIO/IP-A (most with Hoods great feedback) I am just about ready to order. I have worked with typical step/dir steppers with LinuxCNC in the past but am still unsure how to connect Mitsubushi MR-J2S-40A in speed mode with pins ST1 (CCW)/ST2 (CW) to the controller and configure in Mach. Have most of my pin layout for the 4-axis mill conversion planned out. Has anyone used the Mitsu controllers with CSMIO IP-A? Any diagram/layout you can share?
Thanks.
vw
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ST1 and ST2 look to be just what other drives call Fwd and Rev enables. If that is the case then you just permanently wire them to SG.
Hood
Edit, on further reading it seems they are not simply enables like on other drives. Will have to read further and see if it explains things a bit more. If however they do need enabled one at a time dependent on direction then I am not sure there would be a suitable solution.
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Ok reading further in the manual it suggests that you can connect just one of them dependent on which direction you wish for a positive voltage signal.
For example if you short ST1 to SG and apply a positive voltage to your analogue input the motor will rotate CCW, if you then reverse the polarity it will rotate CW.
It is the opposite for ST2.
So looks like you connect either one of them depending on which direction you wish the motor to rotate with a positive voltage signal and just leave it connected and the other disconnected.
Pic attached of the page in the manual.
Hood
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Thanks Hood for the reply.
I sent the same details to CSMIO and have not heard back from them. Support seems quite delayed.
My understanding is I would connect ST1/ST2 to analog outputs but not sure about configuration. Just finishing reimaging a dedicated PC (win7-32bit) then loading CSMIO s/w + Mach3 little later. Will try to walk through the configuration. If it all makes sense then I will order the CSMIO-IP/A. Other option to explore Kflop/Kanalog but I like the industrial packaging of the CSMIO products.
Still hoping someone has experience with CSMIO and Mitsu drives and can share details :-)
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IP/A does not support single ended step/dir so need to make sure I get this correct. Only differenital signals so back to the Mitsu manual again ???
Does it make sense LSP/LSN are the the differential dir and ST1/ST2 are the differential step? (pg 3-16 and 3-17)
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The IP-A is not Step/Dir it is analogue +/- 10v.
The Mitsu drive can be configured for Step/Dir (Position) or Analogue command (Speed or Torque). You would use Analogue command if using the IP-A and most likely Speed rather than Torque.
Below is how I think you would connect the drive up.
Hood
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While I have not set up a Mitsu for analog, I am familiar with them and might be able to clarify a couple of things.
SON (Servo On) which I also refer to as Enable , must be grounded to SG (Signal Ground) to enable the Drive. Depending on what the servo is used for, it may or may not be useful to use this signal rather than just tying it off to ground. For example of a lathe head or mill spindle, you will want to disable the drive in order to have the spindle freewheel.
EMG (Emergency) vs ALM (Alarm): EMG is an E-Stop TO the drive. This should be permanently grounded since MACH takes care of E-stopping drives.
ALM is the drives 'Fault Line' and is connected to MACH E-stop
The Start/Stop and Limits seem to be intended for continuous running until a stop (limit switch) is encountered. Both limits should be grounded (i.e. the limit switched have not been hit) and I *think* both starts should be open. Direction of rotation is configurable in the drive's parameters.
P15R and LG are a special isolated pair (power) for analog pots that set limits on speed, torque, etc. They are not signals.
I *think* you only need VC as the analogue input signal. Again, I have not done a Miitsu with analog and all of the above is from memory. I have the full Mitsu manuals is anyone needs them.
Important notes:
The Miitsu is 24V interface. The J2S has its own 24V internally and normally the signals are ON when grounded to SG , but this is configurable, so make sure it is set this way if that is how you wire it up.
Specifics:
Signal Grounding:
I have a lot of experience with the Mitsu and while it is not made particularly clear in the manuals, the power side and signal side of the drives are isolated and should stay that way. Grounding the Mistu signals back to the Mitsu is the most reliable way to run them. If you ground a signal to the power side of the drive, to your BOB, motion controller, a chassis or any other ground, you may experience a lot of spooky problems like the motors mysteriously creeping all by themselves.
I recommend running the Mitsu signals thru an Opto or SSR back to the Mistu SG. Use your BOB to trip the Opto or SSR.
Mitsu Outputs:
Mitsu outputs have no current limiting so they are very easy to fry. If you connect the output directly to BOB or other device without current limiting of some kind, you will fry the output and possibly the BOB or motion controller as well. There are ways to test your BOB or other device to see is it has current limiting and what it is limited to, but that's a different discussion. I find it safer and more reliable to run the drive signals thru isolators to eliminate any possible damage.
I recommend running the outputs by taking 24V power from the drive, running it thru a 400 Ohm power resistor and then using the resulting power thru appropriate optos or SSR back to the Mistu Outputs. Take the signal for your BOB, motion control or whatever off the Opto or SSR.
There are a lot of ways to design an interface scheme, but the overriding requirement is to limit the current you run thru the Drive's outputs.
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Thanks for the reply simpson36. I understand the core connections you mentioned and have worked with steppers that used CCW/CW or step/dir also. Servos are new to me but the Mitsu inputs are hard to to understand in the 400+ page manual. Add to that limited docs on the CSMIO and its a head banger.
Reply back from CSMIO:
Signals you have pointed are unneeded as the +/-10V signal decides about motor revs direction and motor rotation speed.
For correct servo drive operation in speed mode you need signals:
1) +/-10V
2) servo on
3) reset
4) ready (ready signal after logic state reverse gives servo alarm signal)
5) encoder sygnał
On the speed control diagram he highlighted P15R/VC/LG for the +/-10V signaling. Don't want to magic smoke from the $800 controller and appreciate everyones input.
Heading to work now so will check manual when I get back.
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Simpson36 is correct with regards to VC being the connection you should make rather than P15R however I think you will need to also connect LG as you will need a reference for the voltage.
Hood
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Here is what the manual states.
Hood
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Here is what the manual states.
Hood
Hi Hood,
Long time no speaky. Somehow I am still being notified on this thread.
I see you are still most generous with your time. I only commented when I saw your name here. I still owe you big for all the help you have provided me in the past, so I can't loose the rare opportunity to respond in kind.
Anyway, P15R and its ground (LG) I believe are isolated from the rest of the control side and the analog voltage would come either from 15R (thru a pot) or an external source but in either case your would want the isolated ground to avoid the pitfalls I mentioned earlier. Good catch on your part.
Mitsu drives have very sensitive electronics and can recognize and use a pretty weak signal, but the consequence is that they are also overly sensitive to noise and especially ground loops. They will pick up the tiniest noise and treat it as a signal. I have never had to go as far as putting pull-up or pull-down resistors on them, but they do need and expect a properly quieted system.
We are all supposed to do all the good things needed to avoid ground loops and shield the control signals . . . . but a lot of drives let you get away with being sloppy about that part of the job. Mitsu is not one of them.
Last comment: You can reset the drive after a fault by pressing the rightmost button on the drive. 'Ready' is not needed by MACH because MACH only looks at E-stop (ALM in Mitsu speak). The drive kills the alarm on reset, so you do not need to mess with 'Ready' (RDY, or something like that, I think) unless the controller needs it for some specific reason.
A complication of the Mitsu E-stop (ALM) is that it goes off when you disable the drive, therefor, if you want to use the enable/disable function without E-Stopping MACH each time, you must set up a surrogate e-stop signal to 'hold' MACH running while you have the drive enabled. This is actually not very complicated, but I won't go into that unless someone needs it. This may be configurable in the new J4 (I don't know), but to my knowledge the behavior is non changeable in the J2S that we're talking about here.
The 'Ready' signal behaves differently, and there is also a complication in using that as the E-stop, but I can't remember what it was at this moment. Been a long time since I ate that elephant.
Q: why do you need an encoder signal?
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Encoder signal is needed because it is a closed loop control, Machs DROs also get updated from the encoders position even when in E-Stop or manually turning the motors.
Hood
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Hey All,
I was feeling overwhelmed by the whole servo setup but with the feedback I am more confidence now - thanks.
Attached is the recommendation sent by CSMIO and it matchs Hoods layout.
More questions ... you kinda knew they were coming :)
IP-A was improved over IP-S due to its analog signaling and DRO feedback.
In the manual, P15R='15VDC power supply ' and LG='Common terminal for TLA, TC, VC, VLA, FPA, FPB, OP,MO1, MO2 and P15R'
These don't seem like differential inputs (?)
There is no separate directional signal required with P15R/LG so are these ccw(-) and cw(+) on these inputs?
Also, Pg 3-26 of the manual shows differential going to PP/PG (CW) and NP/NG (CCW).
These would be digital inputs which the IP-A should be able to handle in case analog inputs are issue?
(I will gladly post details of the final configuration after setup so it helps others)
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Ok first thing to note is my drawing previously was wrong with regards the analogue signal, it should have been between VC and LG and NOT P15R as I said.
Now CW/CCW, you do not need them, the analogue signal tells the drive which direction it is to go. -10v to 0v is one direction 0v to +10v is the other..
The second analogue input shown on the above pic is not required for your purpose as it is to limit torque if required, you do not need to do that.
So to summarise, I think this is what you need.
You need the E-Stop input, that would be part of your machines E-Stop chain, probably via relay/ opto to connect to SG to avoid Gnd loops that Simpson mentioned.
You need the SON, that is the Enable for the drive, again relay/opto to connect it to SG.
You need to short the ST1 to SG as that will allow your rotation as per previous snippet from the manual I attached. You could decide to use ST2 instead but you can not use both as that would lock the drive, ie no rotation.
You need to connect VC to the analogue output from IP-A for that axis.
You need to connect LG to the analogue Gnd output for that axis on the IP-A.
The other connections you require are the encoder outputs from the drive, they are differential and connect to the encoder inputs on the IP-A.
The Ready may be required if you wish to input a fault signal to the IP-A, that is definitely recommended as it will let the IP-A know if an axis faults and thus motion will be stopped on all axes. This would happen anyway as you would get a following error from the IP-A as the axis is not where it is meant to be, but it is better to have the additional fault signal as an extra safety feature.
Lastly it is also good to have the reset connected to the IP-A so that the IP-A or Mac can reset a drive if it has faulted, as mentioned by Simpson36 you could just press te button on te drive but easier to let the IP-A handle it automatically or ave a screen button in Mach.
As the SON and Reset need to be shorted to SG to work then you would need to use a relay or opto to connect them, having the relay/opto controlled via the IP-A outputs.
Oh also you need to short LSP and LSN to SG.
I think that is it.
Simpson36 has mentioned about the ease of setting up a ground loop on these drives so I would listen to what he says on that matter.
Hood
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That explains it really clearly - appreciated!
Will draw out everything on the weekend one more time and order the IP-A.
Thanks
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Encoder signal is needed because it is a closed loop control, Machs DROs also get updated from the encoders position even when in E-Stop or manually turning the motors.
Hood
I don't think the drive will operate at all without the encoder signals from the motor to the drive. THe drive reads a lot of data from the encoder, not just position.
The drive is able to 'echo' encoder data, either in original or altered form, to an external device, so it should be possible to supply encoder data to the controller if needed, but I doubt this would equal a 'closed loop' back to the controller because the drive is most likely going to react to its own data received from the actual encoder.
To accomplish a loop between the motor and the controller, I think you would need an 'amplifier' and not a 'drive'.
In considering how to set up a 'reset' it may be preferable to have the operator do the reset manually so that he/she can observe the alarm code before resetting the drive. Note however that the alarm code history is available from the drive, so if the controller is allowed to reset the drive, then if unexpected or unexplainable faults continuously occur, the operator can acquire the alarm history from the drive to figure out what is causing the repeated faults. If, for example, the faults are from an overheated motor, then automatically resetting the drive immediately will likely result in an another fault.
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Simpson36
When using Analogue command the drive is basically being used as an amplifier, the CSMIO/IP-A looks at the encoder feedback and decides how much voltage to send to the drives analogue command input to maintain the correct position/speed/time.
Regards the Reset, yes that is true if it is a continual occurrence, always good to know the reason for the fault condition.
Hood
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Simpson36
When using Analogue command the drive is basically being used as an amplifier, the CSMIO/IP-A looks at the encoder feedback and decides how much voltage to send to the drives analogue command input to maintain the correct position/speed/time.
Hood
Yes, I can see now from the 'response from CSMIO' posting that they are taking the encoder echo off the drive. The drive is going to be in the loop so there is potential for conflicts. In applications where the servo motor might be mechanically locked, the Mitsu has a specific feature to prevent faulting (the IP-A would continue to ramp up the juice because it does not see the encoder count changing). Eventually (generally within a few seconds) this escalates to a fault. If there will be a locked axis condition, the solution is found in the PC (proportional Control) feature. That's a pretty big topic, so I won't go into it unless someone needs it.
General notes for the user RE: echoed encoder data
Be aware that the encoder output of the drive is configurable in the parameters so that must be addressed. Like step multipliers on the step/dir side, there will be a default value and the drive is going to use that value so it cannot be ignored.
Presumably the IP-A also will require configuration to tell it how to relate encoder counts to movement (pulses per inch, or equiv). Probably you will also need to pay attention to the speed at which the IP-A can take in the encoder data. This should be one of the specs. If you exceed the input capabilities, there is no 'standard' reaction. Each device is different. A J2S for example, will simply stop. It occurs to me that analogue input would not have this issue at all, so advantage analogue.
The basic calc is to determine your maximum motor speed and select an encoder output count that is as high as possible without exceeding the IP-A's read speed . . . with some margin for safety. The Mitsu electronics are uber fast and for example a J3 has over 200,000 counts PER rev encoder. Multiply that by 6,000 RPM and you get a very big number that will overwhelm most devices. The J2S is not as high, but still can outpace a lot of, if not most, typical CNC stuff.
Also, and this presumes the IP-A takes in differential signals, be sure to use shielded twisted pair cable. The 'Z' designator on the diagram indicated a twisted pair. It is important to have the two wires from a pair on the same signal. Don't mix things up. It is best to use cable that has both a foil shield and also a braid shield and if possible, with each pair separately shielded in foil as well. If the IP-A inputs are anywhere near as sensitive at the Mitsu, you will benefit from the extra expense of fully shielded cable.
To avoid creating a ground loop. connect only one end of the cable shieling to the device ground. Unless there is a compelling reason not to do so, I would ground the shields to the IP-A and check for lack of continuity at the drive is you use shielded connector or better yet use an unshielded connector at the drive to eliminate the possibility of accidental contact between the cable shielding and the drive ground.
I know this is 'CNC Wiring 101' stuff, but perhaps it will be useful to nubees who may read the thread.
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I will try using the encoder pass through first and see how the motor calibration deals with it - I believe this is how CSMIO suggested to hook up in the manual.
The digital inputs are opto isolated already, I'll take a look at the others also.
Do you have a recommendation for a BOB or just protoboard the relays/optos?
In my previous hobby machines I just used protoboards but this is more of a industrial build.
Have not looked much at the spindle controller yet - will take a look on the weekend. Its a FEB controller and Jagger drive (maybe 24V) with 8 tool position from what I recall.
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As the IP-A is din rail mount then it is probably a good idea to stick to that system for other components. You can get individual din rail mount relays and also you can get relay boards that are din rail mount, lastly you could use proto board and buy a din mount tray to fit it in which makes it look more professional. Below are pics of all 3 that I have used in the Chiron (proto is not relay, just connectors)
Hood
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Forgot to mention regarding the encoder inputs of the IP-A. They can handle 4MHz if I recall correctly, my encoders are set to 24,000 ppr for X, Y and Z which equates to 1.6MHz and on the spindle it is set to 32,768 which equates to just over 2MHz.
Hood
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Yesterday I took out the old controller, limits board, safety module since there are no documentation for any those from the manufacturer (Wietech). Labelled all wires I could follow back. Re-routed some wiring and general clean up. Ordered the MRD-20pin connectors for the Mitsu interfaces and an eight output 24V opto-relay board. This machine is from Germany and they had a 360V 3-phase external transformer with the machine, each AC component (motor drives, spindle controller, ...) are wired to a single phase with neutral so actually using 180V. I will be eliminating the transformer and go directly to 220V 2-phase since each component label states it can do 220V. Maybe they used 180V to account for the 50Hz vs 60Hz. Even the Mitsu drives were wired for single phase instead of three phase so using 180V.
Z-axis Mitsu motor turned out is different than the others, it has connector for encoder at rear and motor power at front then another two wire connector in-between. Haven't seen any Mitsu documentation about this type and cannot read the label without disassembling much of the Z-axis components. Searching for documentation on that one.
Took off remaining covers to get to the spindle controller and its made by F5 and rated at 220V (single or three phase); Searching for documentation on that one.
Jagger spindle has a pneumatic jaw for the tool changer with a round eight pin connector. Engraving on the collar that says 23V, 7Amp, 2-pol, 60000; Searching for documentation on that also.
Will start to re-wire the basics first: AC breaker, power on timer delay and Pilz safety switch.
Holding off ordering the CSMIO till everything else is in place.
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Quick update - Rewired most components for 220V and they power on ok. Got enough details on the spindle+controller to get those running. Moving on to getting at least one Mitsu drive+motor moving with simple +/- 10v control supply. One of the motors is giving encoder error at power up on the drive display so looking to order replacement.
Still waiting for opto/relay board to arrive. Should be ordering the CSMIO this week.
(Work has been really busy so only getting to this on the weekends)
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Yesterday I took out the old controller, limits board, safety module since there are no documentation for any those from the manufacturer (Wietech). Labelled all wires I could follow back. Re-routed some wiring and general clean up. Ordered the MRD-20pin connectors for the Mitsu interfaces and an eight output 24V opto-relay board. This machine is from Germany and they had a 360V 3-phase external transformer with the machine, each AC component (motor drives, spindle controller, ...) are wired to a single phase with neutral so actually using 180V. I will be eliminating the transformer and go directly to 220V 2-phase since each component label states it can do 220V. Maybe they used 180V to account for the 50Hz vs 60Hz. Even the Mitsu drives were wired for single phase instead of three phase so using 180V.
Z-axis Mitsu motor turned out is different than the others, it has connector for encoder at rear and motor power at front then another two wire connector in-between. Haven't seen any Mitsu documentation about this type and cannot read the label without disassembling much of the Z-axis components. Searching for documentation on that one.
Took off remaining covers to get to the spindle controller and its made by F5 and rated at 220V (single or three phase); Searching for documentation on that one.
Jagger spindle has a pneumatic jaw for the tool changer with a round eight pin connector. Engraving on the collar that says 23V, 7Amp, 2-pol, 60000; Searching for documentation on that also.
Will start to re-wire the basics first: AC breaker, power on timer delay and Pilz safety switch.
Holding off ordering the CSMIO till everything else is in place.
The two wire connector on the Z Axis is for a brake. The brake operates on 24VDC. There is no polarity for the two wires (can be wired: +,- or -,+). There are a few parameters relating to the brake. Also, Mitsubishi suggests using a separate 24VDC power supply for the brake only. I suspect the brake circuit causes noise. The brake uses less than 1 amp if I remember correctly.
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The two wire connector on the Z Axis is for a brake. The brake operates on 24VDC. There is no polarity for the two wires (can be wired: +,- or -,+). There are a few parameters relating to the brake. Also, Mitsubishi suggests using a separate 24VDC power supply for the brake only. I suspect the brake circuit causes noise. The brake uses less than 1 amp if I remember correctly.
The brake does not cause noise. The problem is that any coil creates a big spike when it is shut off. You will note in the Mitsu manual they show a diode in the output wiring. This is to dissipate the spike, however, when directly connected to the output, this is like playing with a white tiger on stage . . . usually everything goes well. :)
I recommend a separate power supply for ANY device that has a coil. I use a separate 24V power supply for the brakes, contactors and solenoid operated valves, for example. One of my products includes a solenoid (coil) operated pneumatic valve. I make a special relay that has the diodes mentioned above, but still use a separate PS for the valves. The relay is solid state and isolates the 24V from the 5V CNC side. (relay is not for sale separately).
This may have been posted earlier, but it bears repeating. My advice is to run the outputs thru an opto to isolate the Mitsu (or other industrial drive) from anything that can hurt it.
The most important thing to remember about the drive outputs is that they are not current limited so grounding an output (which is 'ON') without running thru resistance will instantly fry the output. In order to make it impossible for customers to fry outputs on these very expensive drives, I made a custom interface board that contains a 400 ohm power resistor and optos. This is also not available for sale separately, but you don't need a fancy board to make up the simple circuit.
Just run the output thru a 400ohm power resistor to an opto or SSR and back to the Mitsu signal ground. Then use the other side of the opto or relay to switch power to the device you want to control. The 400 ohm resistor will keep the current below the spec max, and the SSR or opto will isolate the drive electronics. You can still add a diode to the coil side of the circuit to keep from frying the SSR or opto.
Last tip; do not use mechanical relays. They make lots of noise.
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Lots more stuff to consider ???
Thanks for the details on the brake. Is it common to see a brake on the z-axis?
simpson36, where in the manual did you see details of wiring the brake? Could not find it. Are you selling the boards you mentioned?
I may start with the opto/relay boards that are already ordered but agree mechanical contacts can provide noise so will update once when I can.
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Hi All,
Happy holidays and best wishes for the New Year to everyone!
Got the IP-A little while back (took almost three weeks by courier!) and started installing over the holidays. Still waiting on DIN rails to mount it permanently and a rail mounted volt/amp meter for monitoring machine AC line draw so just testing single axis for now. Started with the A-axis for simplicity and can move it around. Need to tweak the DAC settings since it tends to rotate slowly when emergency is activated with stand still 0.16V on the analog output instead of 0V. Making up the harnesses for one of the linear axis next. Will update once I have that going.
vw
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Maybe I am not understanding what you are meaning but if I am then the axis should not move when it is E-Stop, reason being is the Enable should be taken away from the drive. It sounds like you have not done that and no amount of messing with the DAC offset will cure that.
Hood
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You are correct I connected enable (SON) outside the CSMIO for now (for testing) and assumed the DAC would have 0V when EMG signal is enabled. I'll fix the SON wiring.
If the EMG=off, SON=on, no active NC code, then servo should be actively locked in position by controller and have 0V on analog output. Correct?
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If the drive is enabled and Mach is not in Reset then the IP-A will keep the axis in position. There may be a voltage on the analogue signal wires but this will be keeping the axis still.
Hood
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You are correct I connected enable (SON) outside the CSMIO for now (for testing) and assumed the DAC would have 0V when EMG signal is enabled. I'll fix the SON wiring.
If the EMG=off, SON=on, no active NC code, then servo should be actively locked in position by controller and have 0V on analog output. Correct?
Coincidentally, I just sent an E-mail on this topic to one of my customers. Here is a snip from that e-mail that should be helpful:
These drives can be used in a large variety of applications and thus have a large amount of capabilities. No one application will use all of them. The [ "L" ] signals you mentioned might be used for a conveyor or similar application. Not applicable to your use, but the drive is 'watching' them so they need to be 'tied off'. You can tie off signals in the wiring and you will see one jumper in the example diagrams I supplied. The drive will NOT come on-line if the EMG (EMERGEMNCY i.e. E-stop) is active. Like the travel signals you have discovered, the EMG (this is E-stop IN to stop the drive) is not needed with MACH, but you still have to kill the signal by grounding it or the drive will be in perpetual E-stop. Look for the jumper in the connector on the wiring diagram. Now you know what it is for.
In MACH, the drives inform MACH of a problem and MACH then stops all of the drives. i.e. centralized system E-stop. I recommend that you use MACH for this purpose
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XYZ axis are all configured and working with the SON signals going through a ULN2802A circuit for now. Have ordered Phoenix opto-isolated SSR DIN mount relay for permanent SON. Still tweaking parameters for optimal speed but working overall.
Spindle is working with analog signaling. Looking at the tool changer set up next. There is a fixed position 16 tool tray (2 rows of 8 ) with pressure switch for tool length measure on the tray and an air operated collet on the spindle. Googled around but didn't see any step-by-step guides so it looks like this will be challenging.
Any suggestions for tool changer macros ?
Appreciate all the help !
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Looks like I would be using the CSMIO based tool changer code. They have an example on their site that I will have to dig into.
VisualBasic and Cypress Enable - Oh joy !!!