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Author Topic: And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)  (Read 14354 times)

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And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)
« on: January 03, 2007, 12:29:39 PM »
Thought I would start my own thread regarding this venture as I have already gone too far off topic on other folks' threads.

Wayne wrote:

Mark.

Retrofiiting is not really very difficult, and there's lots of help available in the Mach Scene.  I'm fairly lucky in that I have been retrofitting machines from a time long before Art started Mach etc.

It does help to run the machine on the original control, which in your case is easy.   I've had to do a few totally blind with no data or anything, and they were certainly a headache to say the least.

Retrofitting with something like mach actually usually makes the machine much simpler than the original machine.  As an example on the Hardinge I was able to completely remove the Wardrobe sized cabinet with double doors which housed the original electronics.  Now I have a tiny enclosure.  It helps that the newer drives etc are a lot smaller.

It need not cost too much either.  I don't do things by halves as a rule, and have less than $3000 investedin the Leadwell VMC, it's already paid that back a few times.  The Hardinge has cost more than I'd have wished, mainly due to it needing new servo motors and belt/pullies, I also chose to change the DC spindle drive for a new Siemens AC motor and Drive.   But I'd reckon it will be paid back within the 1st month or so of use.


I know it's a scary thought, but you can do it with some common sense and good advice.

Wayne..... 



I do understand the basic theory about retro-fitting. It's the details that I am unsure (nervous) about.

To sart with some basic questions:

What is the difference between a DC drive and an AC drive (and motor?) What are the benefits/detractors of each? Can I use my existing stuff (motors, servos, etc.) to keep the cost down? What should I be looking at as far as geckos, break out boards, etc? Obviously, you have Hardinge experience. Would you know exactly what I have on my machine or are there things I need to be looking for (like tags on motors, encoder specifics and such)?

As for the extra room garnered in removing all that GE 1050 controller "stuff", I'm thinking about installing a shop bathroom in the empty enclosure. :)

Mark
 
Don't try to outwierd me, six eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal.

Offline fdos

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Re: And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2007, 04:39:54 PM »

I do understand the basic theory about retro-fitting. It's the details that I am unsure (nervous) about.

To sart with some basic questions:

What is the difference between a DC drive and an AC drive (and motor?) What are the benefits/detractors of each? Can I use my existing stuff (motors, servos, etc.) to keep the cost down? What should I be looking at as far as geckos, break out boards, etc? Obviously, you have Hardinge experience. Would you know exactly what I have on my machine or are there things I need to be looking for (like tags on motors, encoder specifics and such)?

As for the extra room garnered in removing all that GE 1050 controller "stuff", I'm thinking about installing a shop bathroom in the empty enclosure. :)

Well I guess the devil is in the detail.  But don't worry too much about it.

A lot of Hardinge CNC's used a DC spindle motor and drive.   These are quite obvious as they tend to have a tacho fitted to the rear of the motor.

They do work very well, but over the years I have seen a few go bang in a big way!   Also with a lot of this stuff they are getting a bit long in the tooth and it's hard to predict how long it's going to last.

Modern Vector AC drives (VFD's, Inverters, VSD's) have come a long long way.  The 3Kw Siemens one I fitted to my HXL-S Cost a fair bit £1200 or about $2000 that was for a new Iron Framed motor (4 pole) Drive and braking resistor.  The resistor I found I needed later as the basic DC braking in the drive struggled to cope with the high inertia in the spindle drive train (Mainly caused by the air cylinder)

The motor was a drop in replacement after milling the round flange mount to a square one.  That figured though as the original motor although DC was also Siemens.

The original Servo's used tacho feedback, and these have caised me some problems in the past on CHNC's with AB Controls.   These can be replaced with Encoders with some ingenuity.  It may be that you also  have encoders already, just depends on how the machine was built originally.  Mine had both.  tacho's now junked.   The CHNC tacho's were gear driven.

For servo drives I'd now recommend CNC Teknix drives from Australia.  More expensive than Gecko's but a far more sophisticated product.  Support is fanstastic and the Company is a real progressive one.  The drive designer came to visit me recently and I have only good things to say about them.  They have some other real nice stuff coming out soon too ;)

There is more than likely an encoder on the spindle too, and hopefully soon we will have a way to used them with mach for spindle tracking.

My HXL-s Uses a lot of hall effect switches for limits, homes, and various stuff on the turret.  These are 24v devices and you will need to do some level switching to interface with the printer port if thats what you want rto use.  Easy though, a cheap opto and 2k2 resiistor works like a charm.

On that subject i personally prefer to have as much of the original  24v levels as possible on the machine signals. As well as differential signals for encoders and step/dir signals if possible.  Makes for more reliable operation and costs very little to keep the machines the way they were
built.

The turret will eat up some I/O so a plc may be required.  Not anywhere as bad as my VMC's ATC requirements though.

Turret needs 4 outputs for the coils in the valves.  Lock, Up & Index, turret stop engage and retract.  Turret encoder is 4 ouput but this could be decoded down to 2 inputs with simple logic.  It's not BDC output like the CHNC encoder.

There is an additional +z limit for when the tailstock is in use this can be ORed with the stock one.

The flow sensor for the tailstock is there to put the machine in feed hold whilst the quill is moving.

There are various other sensors for low air, lube, spindle lock etc etc..

When mines sorted I'll happily give you all the methods I used!

Wayne....




Re: And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2007, 05:28:29 PM »
Thank you very much for the reply Wayne.

I've got a ton of questions and will start asking as I digest what you've given me here. I appreciate your time!

Mark
Don't try to outwierd me, six eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal.

Offline fdos

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Re: And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 04:18:24 PM »
I've got a ton of questions and will start asking as I digest what you've given me here. I appreciate your time!

Did you choke on it! 

Perhaps you could post some pics of your HXL up here.  Might help to identify any differences.

Wayne...

Offline Chaoticone

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Re: And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 04:33:31 PM »
Wayne, you are a rascal. ;D

Brett
;D If you could see the things I have in my head, you would be laughing too. ;D

My guard dog is not what you need to worry about!
Re: And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 05:12:19 PM »
LOL Wayne.

I am still chewing :)

Actually, shortly after I wrote that I stumbled onto an ebay auction via a google search and found a guy parting one out. I'm getting all the PC boards (the entire computer actually), the tail stock (which was missing on mine) the front control panel, the tool turret, and some other misc stuff for $650!

I'll be substituting the boards first as I am sure one or more of mine are bad. I haven't stopped considering retro-fitting as I am really gettin' tired of troubleshooting 30 yr old technology. I'll get some pictures up here very soon (as soon as I figure out how) lol

Mark
Don't try to outwierd me, six eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal.
Re: And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 07:51:08 PM »
OK, let's try this:

Here are the transformers:



Tool Turret and Collet Nose:



LED Panel:



Incoming Power:



Incoming Power (lower)



Front Panel and Collet Closer:



Computer Boards:



Cross SLide and Tool Turret:



These have been down sized to save bandwidth. If they are too big or too many, please feel free to delete. I have the full size pics if anyone wants or needs.

Mark

Don't try to outwierd me, six eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal.
Re: And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2007, 08:20:32 PM »
Roo got his HNC running on a Galil :)
Just got a video from him...
Fixing problems one post at a time ;)

www.newfangledsolutions.com
www.machsupport.com
Re: And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2007, 09:08:39 AM »
Very cool video Brian. Thanks for sharing. Give my congrats to Roo.

Now, what's a Galil? :) I know they make very cool rifles, but CNC.....? :)

Mark <who hopes to be able to share a video of his machine sometime soon>
Don't try to outwierd me, six eyes. I get stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal.

Hood

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Re: And another Hardinge HXL retro fit - by a newbie :)
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2007, 01:21:54 PM »
Galil is a motion controller, see here http://www.galilmc.com/products/index.html

Hood