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Author Topic: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!  (Read 19558 times)

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Offline Chaoticone

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Re: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2006, 12:22:47 PM »
I agree, I got my drives hot once, I forgot the fan, and it went insane. Cooled them off, problem solved. I say this hesitantly because you have defiantly been talking to some of the gurus allready. I'm not so sure you aren't dealing with a noise issue. You certainly would not be the first. Can you post some more pics. of your cabinet and wiring? Even on the machine.
;D If you could see the things I have in my head, you would be laughing too. ;D

My guard dog is not what you need to worry about!

Hood

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Re: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2006, 03:27:53 PM »
I may have misread the first post but I think when he said things were hot he was meaning the complete control box rather than the Geckos, this would be expected if no fan was present and a large transformer was in such an enclosed space. The right thing was done putting a fan in, but care should be taken if its in a dusty environment, filters might be in order ;)
Hood
Re: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2006, 03:53:24 PM »
Hi,
This is the link to some  pictures of  my controller box:
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=1396.0

I have posted about this issue before, I would change things and they would seem to get better then after awhile it would mess up again and loose steps.

What do you mean "noise"?  I have heard that having too many things plugged into the same outlet/powerbar can cause problems, is that true?

Thanks,
Greg
"Ideas have consequence" Ravi Zaccharias

Offline Chaoticone

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Re: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2006, 04:11:28 PM »
Yes, that is true.  I'm no expert so I will try to explain the best I can. Imagine you are at a water park with all of the half pipe slides that cross each other, run parallel at times, over, under. One has a dedicated pool of yellow water, the other has a pool of blue water. With all of the traffic and splashing eventually they would both end up with green water. Now, shielded cable, proper arrangement and layout would equal putting the other half of the pipe on top, sealing them off from one another. Yellow stays yellow and blue stays blue now. Different power sources, frequencies,AC, DC they are all different color slides. I hope this helps.
;D If you could see the things I have in my head, you would be laughing too. ;D

My guard dog is not what you need to worry about!
Re: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2006, 09:17:39 PM »
Hi,
When I bought the machine the whole box was so hot I wasn't able to touch it, I'm not sure where the heat came from but I suspect that it came from the big round thing in the box not the drivers but I could be wrong. (sorry I'm not sure of the name of all the parts yet)  I added the fans and the box is very cool, but your were talking about dust I don't have filters so I am getting alitte bit of dust in the box, mostly wood dust.

What did you think of the pictures of the wiring for my machine? Does any thing look out of order?
How do you shield the wires? or what is a shielded cable?

I have my power cord for my router with my z axis wire and then my y axis comes together as well, my x axis is separate and I have had the machine mess up in that axis too???

Is the current resistor on the Geckos correct? Can you see it in the pic, I think Hood said it was the right one.

In Windows BIOS my com port 1 is set to EPP, is that right? There is two other settings ECP and Bi-directional.

My baud rate is at 9600, should that be set higher?

I have leadscrews with .1 pitch also with plastic anti-vibration nut just so you know, you asked earlier.

The Gecko drivers  are not mounted on heatsinks or with heat transfer paste, just mounted to aluminum plates.

How do I find out what amps per phase for the steppers? and the limit resistors for the geckos?

It seems like the whole machine screws up all axis freeze up and the motors moan and then they release and the machine is out of location in at least two axis depends on what type of program I'm running.

I know that's alot of questions and statements please spend your time and answer them I would really appreciate it.
Thanks for your time,
Greg



"Ideas have consequence" Ravi Zaccharias

Hood

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Re: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2006, 02:23:00 AM »
Hi,
When I bought the machine the whole box was so hot I wasn't able to touch it, I'm not sure where the heat came from but I suspect that it came from the big round thing in the box not the drivers but I could be wrong. (sorry I'm not sure of the name of all the parts yet)  I added the fans and the box is very cool, but your were talking about dust I don't have filters so I am getting alitte bit of dust in the box, mostly wood dust.

The round thing is the transformer, its what is called a toroidal transformer. Transformers produce a lot of heat and it is the most likely source of your heat. Wood dust wont harm in small quantities but let it build up and it will start to insulate things and hold the heat into the components inside the box so filters or a regular blast with air to clean is in order

What did you think of the pictures of the wiring for my machine? Does any thing look out of order?
How do you shield the wires? or what is a shielded cable?
Hard to tell from the pic but it does look OK. Shileding is like a metal braid that surrounds all the wires inside a cable, it can also be a foil wrap. The wires that should really be shielded are limits wire, motor wires and possibly step direction wires. The shielding should really only be connected to ground at one end, usually the control box end.

I have my power cord for my router with my z axis wire and then my y axis comes together as well, my x axis is separate and I have had the machine mess up in that axis too???
I dont think noise is your problem really but thats just my gut feeling.
Is the current resistor on the Geckos correct? Can you see it in the pic, I think Hood said it was the right one.

Need to know the motors Amps before I can say.

In Windows BIOS my com port 1 is set to EPP, is that right? There is two other settings ECP and Bi-directional.
Should be OK but if you feel the need no harm in trying a different setting ;)

My baud rate is at 9600, should that be set higher?
Nope, should be ok at that

I have leadscrews with .1 pitch also with plastic anti-vibration nut just so you know, you asked earlier.

The Gecko drivers  are not mounted on heatsinks or with heat transfer paste, just mounted to aluminum plates.
Should be OK, the Alu will act as a heat sink and unless you are running full current (your not BTW) the integrated heatsinks in the geckos will do a decent job.

How do I find out what amps per phase for the steppers? and the limit resistors for the geckos?
You will need to either find a plate on the motors, or ask the builders what the motor specs are. The resistors are colour coded, once you find out the Amps you can then check the resistor is correct, I suspect it will be .

It seems like the whole machine screws up all axis freeze up and the motors moan and then they release and the machine is out of location in at least two axis depends on what type of program I'm running.

Sounds like typical steppers when they loose steps by being pushed too far.

I know that's alot of questions and statements please spend your time and answer them I would really appreciate it.
Thanks for your time,
Greg
I have tried ;)

My turn for the questions ;)
Have you got Enhanced pulse enabled? if not please do it.
 Also have you turned off Backlash comp if it wass turned on?

Hood




Quote
« Last Edit: December 05, 2006, 02:24:55 AM by Hood »
Re: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2006, 11:02:29 AM »
Hi,
Enhanced pluse was not enabled, CV is on and backlash comp is turned to off.  I ran a simple program last night it was plunging a 1/2 endmill, instead of running a can cycle I wrote it in g-code. There was alot of switching from G0 to G1 in it. It losts it's location 3 times in that program all in the z this time. I had to slow the feeds down and take out the G0 to get it to work. I was using M98 with a sub program and I would repeat to get the desired amount of holes.  For that program I had Enhanced pulse enabled.  I don't think the cables are shielded. I have to go talk to you tonight.
Thanks for your time.
Greg
"Ideas have consequence" Ravi Zaccharias
Re: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2006, 12:39:00 PM »
Hi,  Hood is right. Although a power supply of 75v would be better, It seems by your explanation in the email this will not sort your problem immediately. You said that when the axis miss steps the steppers moan.

Are you saying that when the problem occurs, all the axises stop at the same time (for how long) and then start working again normally? This is the big question because if that is so we can eliminate some of the things it might be.

Your port and baud settings are OK. As are the current resistors. The mounting of the Gecko units should be OK for steppers under 3amps although heat transfer paste between the Gecko unit and the mounting would be better in the long term if you are using the machine all day every day. But don't worry about this for now.

Shielded cable has the earth/ground wire on the outside of all the other wires made like a lattice (similar to TV aerial cable or audio cable)
It acts like a Faraday cage and keeps stray signals from getting in or out of the cable long it's length. All of your signal wires should be shielded ( wires to the computer and the step and direction on the gecko's)

I hope I've answered most of you questions but to get back to the problem I need a better explanation of this moan from the steppers or perhaps a video of this problem happening.

Does the moan sound like a low vigorous hum?

Regards
John
Re: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2006, 02:56:41 PM »
Hi John,
I will make a video of the problem and have it posted tonight.

The moan is not loud but just loud enough to get your attention. I would say it happens for a few seconds. For example I will be contouring something and its moving in the X+ direction, it will lock up and the numbers on the screen will keep moving, and until it switches directions and goes in the X- direction. Then it will start moving again and will be out of location what ever the distance it was from the location it locked up at to the location it switched directions. Like I said before it will freeze in all axis, when it freezes in the X the Z doesn't keep going up and down, it stops too. If I am cutting with all three axis contouring on a 45 they all stop moving and the numbers keep going on the screen. It doesn't happen too often when cutting with all three.

This will happen on any axis at any given time, I was running a make shift drilling program and it messed up there to, so not only when I'm contouring. Which is what I do most of the time.

Back to the moan noise, its not very loud and it doesn't sound like it has a load on it, caused from binding. I'll get it on video so you can see it.

I am going to test the voltage and let you know.

Thanks,
Greg
"Ideas have consequence" Ravi Zaccharias
Re: Help! Please! this Chaos has to stop!
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2006, 06:35:42 PM »
Hi, The numbers on Mach will still run because you don't have a closed loop system and Mach doesn't know there is a problem. Lets assume that the pulses coming from Mach are reaching the drivers OK. If you could test for this it would eliminate one possibility.

I believe your problem could be one of these things...

1) If all the drivers have a common enable signal (terminal 7 on Gecko's) then an intermittant on/off signal on this will mess things up as you have described.

2) The power supply to the gecko's could have a fault, a dodgy wire or perhaps the rectifier is on the verge of failing.
I have never had one with an intermittant fault. they usually fail totally but you said the box got very hot and this is one of the components that would get hot (maybe the case it is mounted on is not dissipating the heat.

With this in mind could you substitute the power supply, like using a 24v battery charger or batteries  just to test.

Look forward to the video.

Kind Regards
John