Hello,

I just stepped into the world of CNC. I am planning to build a 5-Axis CNC machine for precision application. Is there anybody using for the same and have impressed with MACH4 performance?

I have suggested Hicon Integra closed loop controller for this will it be compatible with Aerotech Stages(link given below)?
https://www.aerotech.com/product-catalog/stages/linear-stage/ats100.aspx?p=%2fproduct-catalog%2fstages.aspx%3fpage%3d2

Also I need to control ultra high speed spindle using the same will it be possible? Since spindle do not have any feedback sensor. Can anybody help me how to do it?

Thanks in Advance

Hi.
looks like you're going to spend SERIOUS money using those puppies....are you sure?...really sure?

My experience building a mill, and with nothing as classy as the stages your talking about, is that as you learn and uncover the tricks and traps
that CNC presents it will blow your budget, maybe so badly that the project never gets completed.

My recommendation would be to use the Aerotech  drivers for the motors you choose, no guessing, you'll know they're right at probably similar cost
to the 'extras' associated with closed loop capable HICON board.

What drive does the spindle use? Most motion controllers do a pretty good job with VFDs open loop. Unless you need really accurate speed control or
indexing then 'no feedback' is the norm.

My experience was that I focused on travel/ rigidity/ accuracy/ resolution/ ease of construction and so on of the axes and the frame of the machine.
Towards the end of construction I started thinking about the spindle. This was a mistake, the spindle speed, power and torque, the materials being milled
and the tools to be used should be  at the TOP of the list. Realistic appreciations of these factors will determine to a VERY large extent how the rest of the
machine looks. It will also uncover any 'budget blowout points'.

I am guilty, not badly so, but guilty none the less, of being a perfectionist. The level of perfection I seek often exceeds my skill and certainly my budget. This
can be a real disaster in this hobby (obsession), I have at times talked my self out of enhancement projects because I couldn't achieve the level of performance
or perfection. I have become better at saying 'to hell with it and box on, make the thing and see how good it is'. While never perfect the results are usually worthwhile.
I need the practice of overcoming 'perfectionisum'....

Let us know how your going, thinking and dreaming about it is part of the fun!

Craig

Hi, Thanks for the reply.

What do you think will it not be possible to controller with Hicon Integra Closed loop package?

Please elaborate about drivers and compatibility part. I dont want to go further with any misunderstanding. What I understood is 'I should purchase Aerotech stages with encoders and drivers control it with Hicon Integra with MACH4 interface' is that what you mean??

Spidle runs on synchronous motor drive..  Its a I-Bag 1,60,000 rpm small spindle. I am already taking Travel, rigidity and structure into account.

Thank You

Hi,
I think that the closed loop package will probably work, remember you have to purchase the features required and so add to the cost of the controller
about $400-$600.

On the other hand Aerotech offer drives for their servos, the drive closes the loop. All that is required to control the servo is step/dir and maybe enable/fault
signals. Usually servo drives of this description have a software setup program which allows you to set speed/current limits, PID parameters, electronic gearing,
index homing and so much more. You can probably achieve the same thing manually but with a GREAT deal of work/research and hand bit/byte programming.
I recently used a AC servo for a spindle motor, a 1.8kW Allen Bradley servo and I used a matching Allen Bradley servo drive which is programmed with Ultraware,
proprietary setup software. I didn't much like having to pay for the software but setting up the servo parameters with a GUI is a doddle and makes the software
worth every cent.

Motion controllers issue pulse streams to steppers/servos and while some controllers can read encoders and 'close the loop' the servo manufacturer knows exactly
what encoder he is going to use and the electrical characteristics of the servo and usually do a better job.

Craig

Hi,
I've just been reviewing Vital Systems site about your closed loop idea. I think your barking up the wrong tree.

The HICON controller can, when you pay to have it activated, read an encoder, do the numerical calculation to produce an error signal. The error
signal must be amplified and applied to a servo. Vital Systems do make such an amplifier but it suits their own Maxsine servos only. If you buy the
Areotech stages without servos and buy an fit Maxsine, yes it would work.

If you use Aerotech supplied servos then you must use a suitable driver, usually from the same manufacturer. Servo drives accept encoder inputs and
step/dir inputs (among other protocols) and drive the servos directly. The servo drive closes the loop, not the motion controller. Why bother paying an extra
$500 for a feature you don't need?

The primary activity of a motion controller is to take position, velocity over time numerical data from Machs trajectory planner and to do the calculations
to produce pulse streams to motor drives. They do not as a rule drive the motors directly, that's the job of a servo drive. The HICON controller is a very capable
controller and it can 'close the loop' but this is an added feature not the most vital one.

I note also on the Aerotech site that you can order stages with or without a motor and various choices from steppers to 2500 line AC servos. If you don't mind
me asking what sort of money do they want for the stages you have in mind?

Craig

Hi,
This solution is real descriptive and satisfying , I am glad to interact with an expert like you.

I will prefer to go with Aerotech Stages with motor and driver and try controlling it with Hicon Integra Board using Mach4 interface. I hope this combination will not hurt the system accuracy. According to you its not necessary to buy a closed loop package since the servo motor with driver closes the loop not the controller? So should I purchase an Open loop one?

Yeah No problem one stage cost 6333 USD without drive and controller. It not at all pocket friendly, thats the reason I don't want to take chances with accuracy.

Thank You

Hi,
that's serious bucks!

I can understand that you want to do it right.

The stages would work fine with steppers. Steppers don't usually have encoders and are therefore open loop. I guess the majority of hobby machines are
arranged this way. Steppers, even good ones, are relatively cheap. Used within their limits they work great, no loss of accuracy. If however you push them
too far they can loose steps and without encoders you might not know and unless you have a self correcting drive you cant do anything about it.
The single worst limitation of a stepper is that they lose torque authority at speed, anything over 300-500 rpm and the torque drops off rapidly. Under
that speed they go well and at least in terms of torque do better than servos.
My mill uses 5 phase steppers matched to a low backlash planetary gearbox. They give me 1um resolution, 500 plus kg of thrust at the expense of being
slow, rapids of 1200mm/min. I haven't missed a step in several years. So steppers are quite capable with care.

Servos and matching drives are closed loop. Should a servo lag behind the drive will increase its output to have the servo catch up. Servos are fast, most are
rated to several thousand rpm and capable of high speed rapids suitable in a production environment. I note that Aerotech offer servos with encoders of
either 1000 line or 2500 lines. The servo with a 1000 line encoder has a resolution of 0.09 degree (5.4 arc min), not bad...The servo with a 2500line encoder has
a resolution of 0.036 degree (2.2 arc min), even better... Also I see that they offer a brake, you should consider a brake for the Z axis. You don't want the weight
of the spindle to cause the axis to slump under gravity when the machine powers down.

Clearly you want an accurate machine and are prepared to pay big bucks to get it. Accuracy is largely determined by the stages, the motors and matching drives
and how carefully you assemble/adjust them. Provided your motion controller works it doesn't affect accuracy. Any of the current crop of Mach4 capable controllers
will work fine, HICON is one of the more expensive ones but enjoys class leading reputation as well. If your happy to pay....stick with it.

Craig

Hi,
reread your post...no you don't need to purchase the closed loop option, that saves $595 right there! I'm not sure about how they have phrased their advertising
material, it rather suggests that to achieve accuracy you should BUY the addon. Certainly you seem to have gained that impression...its wrong. Any decent AC servo
and drive has a following error allowance, programmable and usually default of 20 encoder counts. If the servo gets out of whack from the position you specify
it throws a fault which you can decide how to handle. I assure you any decent servo and matching drive will easily achieve accuracy of  a few encoder counts, it
has less to do with the motion controller and more to do with the smarts the manufacturer builds into the servo/encoder/drive.

I suspect you will have more use for the 'extended IO package for $250 and if you wish to read analogue values at all the Analogue package for $200. Your spindle
is grossly unsuitable for rigid tapping so you wont need that. Until you've got some good Mach4 miles under your belt I wouldn't bother with the API and/or Basic/C
macro features either.

Craig

Hi...

So the list of Items I should purchase is
Hicon Integra-Pro motion controller 6-axis.....................................................................$ 595,
HiCON Extended I/O Feature (Enable I/O Ports 12 & 13, and Mach4 Sync Outputs)..........$ 250,
Mach4-Hobby Software License.....................................................................................$ 200,
Differential Step/Dir and Encoder Board [2 Nos].............................................................$ 590

Along with the Stages with motor Encoder and driver from Aerotech. All ok?

If you are building that type of machine and. Controller why only the hobby lic

Talk about trying to save a buck it’s the heart of the system the brain ,