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Author Topic: Strange axis movement ONLY when spindle is starting or stopping...  (Read 4245 times)

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 Hello !

 I'm facing a strange problem, which I'd like to describe here...

 My setup:

 - Chinese 2.2KW spindle + VFD, connected to Mach3 via ModBus adapter and Huanyang VFD controller plugin.
 - 3 axis.
 - I'm using the famous Screenset 2010

 For example:

1st case:

 VFD Controller is configured to be started manually (Huanyang RS485 link is NOT used)

 I have to configure PD001 = 0 to run it manually

 I move all axis, alone or together manually ==> No problems
 
 move axis, then start or stop spindle  ==> No problems

 You can play as you want, it's OK !

2nd case:


 Now, PD001 = 2. Then spindle has to be started from Mach3 itself.

 (I click a button a the screen to start/stop spindle, or a command in gcode is triggered)

 Start Spindle, move axis, stop spindle   ==> No problems

 Move axis then Start or Stop spindle while keeping my finger on the direction button

  ==> The stepper makes an horrible noise, as if the pulses received were totally wrong !

 I have to release my finger from the 'move left/right' axis key, then press again and then it will be OK....


 Order is this case IS important ! YOU CAN'T start or stop spindle if an axis is moving !!!!

 You will lose huge number of step, then you'll have to recalibrate and you work is lost !


 I was suspecting some shielding problem, but it's not the case (See 1st case)


3rd case:


 The funniest case now:

 I disconnect the spindle from the VFD.

 Same test:

 I move one axis, then I start the spindle (While keeping my finger on the 'move axis' button)

 Same horrible noise !!!!


 I highly suspect a software problem (Or configuration ???? But I don't see where !)...

 Something look to 'eat' CPU, preventing a steady flow of data going to Stepper controller...


 Mach3 send a 'steady' amount of pulse to the stepper controller, then the stepper itself...

 But when I trigger the 'start spindle' or stop spindle command, it's a nightmare.

 I have to release the move button, then start or stop spindle.


 I have wasted a great piece of artwork that was under 'gcode' control.

 Problem: I cannot 'patch' my gcode files to ensure that no start/stop of spindle will be made while an axis is moving.

 
 I have read plenty of forum, and each time, the problem is noise related. But trust me, it's not the case !


 Hope I was clear... Could someone help me ?




Offline Tweakie.CNC

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Re: Strange axis movement ONLY when spindle is starting or stopping...
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2013, 04:31:44 AM »
I feel that your problem may be related to electrical noise emanating from your VFD and / or its wiring.

Assuming, for one moment, that it is not an electrical noise issue then - it’s a long shot but something you may wish to try…

Make a hard copy of your existing Mach3 settings, create a new profile (don’t clone the existing profile), open Mach3 in the new profile and enter all your settings, restart Mach3 with this new profile and then see if the problem persists.

(It is not unknown for an existing .xml to become corrupt - thereafter all sorts of strange things can happen).

Just thinking out loud.  :)

Tweakie.
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.  Winston Churchill.
Re: Strange axis movement ONLY when spindle is starting or stopping...
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2013, 04:44:34 AM »

 I will try tonight to create a new clean profile.

 For the VFD noise, I'm sure this is NOT the problem !

 I made another test:

 Remove completely VFD. (Disconnected totally, digged in the backyard ;-)

 Removed VFD plugin to control.

 Move axis, then click on start spindle button (Which start nothing, just call a macro M3 if I remember well)

 Same ugly noise !

 I feel a SW problem which is (I hope !) a configuration problem, but I don't see what.

 Again, if I change speed + or - when moving axis, no problem.

 It's only the stop/start or start/stop transition while any axis is moving that cause so much trouble...


 Thank you !


 
Re: Strange axis movement ONLY when spindle is starting or stopping...
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2013, 07:43:48 AM »

 I made a small test during lunch.

 Very easy to reproduce. If someone could confirm the behavior, it would be great !

 Here are the steps required:

 - Rename your Mach3 installation to Mach3.BAK
 - Install Mach3 R3.043.066. No need for license. Demo mode is enough.
 - Start and create a TEST profile.
 - Configure Step/Dir pin to allow X/Y/Z moves.
 - I have changed nothing else in configuration.
 - No additonnal plugin, vfd, scripts, etc... Clean Mach3 system !
 - No VFD connected of course !

 Start Mach3.

 Leave reset mode.

 Move the axis.

 **While an axis is moving** , click on "Spindle CW F5" button on the bottom right of the screen.

 The motor will sound very strage and loud (Lots of missing steps)

 It doen't take a long to check this issue....

 I have no others idea now, as my system is totally clean now...


 Heeelp !!!!


Offline Tweakie.CNC

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Re: Strange axis movement ONLY when spindle is starting or stopping...
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2013, 10:59:13 AM »
Quote
- I have changed nothing else in configuration.

Did you not configure e-stop ??

How about Motor Tuning ??

Are you sure you ran Mach3 under your new TEST profile ??

Sorry to ask these stupid questions but I have tried "**While an axis is moving** , click on "Spindle CW F5" button on the bottom right of the screen." and found no problem with motor noise or missing steps.

Tweakie.

Addition;

One further thought - run the DriverTest.exe (Mach folder) to check that your PC is up to the task.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 11:56:59 AM by Tweakie.CNC »
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.  Winston Churchill.
Re: Strange axis movement ONLY when spindle is starting or stopping...
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2013, 12:40:47 PM »

>>Did you not configure e-stop ??

 Yes, but no difference... It's not the problem...

>>>How about Motor Tuning ??

 I made two differents kind of configuration, and I may have found a clue:

 (Sorry for the unit, we are using metric system on the other side of the Atlantic ;-)

 1st:   200 Steps/mm   3000mm/min Accel = 200

 Quite fast config, but very good for my usage...

 2nd: 200 Steps/min   120mm/min Accel = 4

 Ultra Slow config but I have noticed something very interesting.

 In first case, Axis motor is crying like hell when I click on "Spindle CW F5" button.

 Then axis continue to move without problems (And losing thousands of steps !!!)

 In second case, Axis motor is stopping when I click on "Spindle CW F5" button.

 Then axis continue to move without problems (And losing maybe no steps, I cannot see that)


 BUT: I've seen something that I had never noticed before.

 During the time when the Stepper motor is crying of being stopped, there is a button which is blinking for around 2 seconds ==> DWELL

 When it's blinking, my axing are not working at all. Each time I click on Start or stop while axis is moving, Dwell blinks, and horrible noise !


 If I'm right, clicking Start should call M3 macro, and Stop should call M5 macro, right ?

 I have even removed the content of M3 and M5 without success.

 Problem doesn't come from DoSpinCW and DoSpinStop system calls.

 Dwell should be a good idea, but, I don't know if I'm right !


 


>>>Are you sure you ran Mach3 under your new TEST profile ??

 Absolutely. Newbie filter is on ;-)

>>>Sorry to ask these stupid questions but I have tried "**While an axis is moving** , click on "Spindle CW F5" button on the bottom right of the screen." and found no problem with motor noise or missing steps

 No stupid question, only kind replies !

>One further thought - run the DriverTest.exe (Mach folder) to check that your PC is up to the task.

 I did. But as I say, my system works perfectly (And fast) except those crazy Start / Stop transitions

Offline Chaoticone

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Re: Strange axis movement ONLY when spindle is starting or stopping...
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2013, 12:46:54 PM »
What outputs do you have assigned to the M3 and M4 and what pins are those outputs mapped to? Also, what are your outputs set to for mist and then their pin assignment.

Brett
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Re: Strange axis movement ONLY when spindle is starting or stopping...
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2013, 12:52:14 PM »
Might also test with "0" in the Spin-UP delay entry.
Just for kicks, could be related ? ? ?
Russ
Re: Strange axis movement ONLY when spindle is starting or stopping...
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2013, 01:53:55 PM »

 Overloaded, this is the solution !

 I was fighting with output config (Thank to Chaoticone) and it didn't solve the issue.

 I have set all value to 0 for CW CCW spin up and down and now, it looks perfect !!!


 Thank you all for your help, but now, can someone explain ?

 I don't like to work by test and retry, I prefer to understand...

 What are those values and why should I put them to 0 ?


 Thank you again !
Re: Strange axis movement ONLY when spindle is starting or stopping...
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2013, 03:34:24 PM »
As well as I understand, the delay is to insure that the spindle  comes up to the commanded speed before the next line of code is executed.
Some heavy machines require a substantial delay to allow the speed to stabilize.

How and why it affects your application the way it does .... I'm not sure.

If you don't require a delay, may be best to leave it at 0.
I find that even though there is a couple of seconds of spin-up time required, there is never an immediate feed into the material so I have mine @ 0.

Hard to tell what that "pause" is actually doing deep within the Mach code. ? ? ? ?
Maybe you could change your code to keep the two actions separate ? ?
Not sure it's common to have them combined ..... but, I've not been at it very long.
Russ