Hello Guest it is September 28, 2020, 05:29:53 PM

Author Topic: Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3  (Read 11372 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3
« on: November 23, 2012, 07:45:57 PM »
i want to convert my lathe to mach3.  it is a 17" x 40" gear head engine lathe, has the fanuc 20t control on it.  personal computers i understand a bit, and ive been doing a lot of internet reading and video watching about mach3, im beginning to understand the basics, why a breakout board, steppers vs servos, analog vs digital, step + dir, etc.  ive watched a bunch of the Artsoft tutorials and a lot of it makes good sense to me, tho when folks start talking modbus, incorporating motion controllers, etc, it gets a bit fuzzy to me.  ive watched these folks vids, http://buildyourcnc.com/CNCElectronicsandWiring.aspx and http://buildyourcnc.com/wiring.aspx, most of it makes sense to me, tho ive never attempted this before.  ive looked hard at the Machmotion kits, could probably afford their stepper lathe kit, looks like a great effort on their part, but something in me says turn to the mach3 community, take this in little bitty steps, and i will save some $$ but more importantly i will understand what i have built with the help of others when i am done, which is very important to me.  i run a big fanuc controlled workcenter days, ive watched the fanuc man fix the machines around mine and know the $$$$ he charges, and the $$$$ the repair parts cost.  i need him to not have to come to my garage, i need to be able to fix my own stuff, and from reading the huge manuals that came with my fanuc control, know this is too much for me.

so i think ive taken the 1st 2 bitty steps.  i have listed my complete fanuc control with motors for sale in multiple places including here, goodbye, perhaps i can generate a lil $$ for my conversion.  once the fanuc is gone, i will be left with a nice solid engine lathe with a 2 speed 8 hp spindle motor, running on 208 v 3 phase, yup, not 240, bucked down off a rotary phase converter.  the 208 is i guess european and/or portugese style.  i also have a full set of electrical diagrams, also in portugese.  the motor has a mechanical brake, turn off the spindle, klunk, the chuck stops, very quickly.  there are mpgs for the x and z, a high-low hand switch for the spindle motor, coolant pump, and an oiler.  there is an incremental spindle encoder there, not on the spindle itself, but on the output drive of the gearbox.  oem (hiwin) ballscrews are in place with pulleys on them, and places to mount new axis motors.  bunches of relays and contactors in the cabinet too, i know their basic purpose, but couldnt tell you one from the other.

my original dream was an enhanced version of what i had (i really like the mach3 graphics and screens) complete with vfd, mitsubishi servos kit from Machmotion, now i am looking at a different approach.  bitty steps.  i am looking at basic stepper kits from motiontek and automation technologies inc.  perhap with a higher end breakout board to be there should i decide later its time to go servo.  or add the vfd.  am i barking up the right tree?  will they help me the non electronics guy get this running?  how about you guys?  can i get guidance here a small step at a time?  theres plenty of time, and enough money so i wont be looking for the cheapest component(s) from ebay with engrish documentation.  i want to do it right, simple as possible, fancy is not needed right now.

so ive decided the fanuc is going.  and ive decided to stay very basic, just get her running again.  i have a competent electrician/electronics guy available, but want to do as much as i can myself, so i can learn.  he will be there when needed, electrocution is not on my list.  i just want my lathe to run again, to be able to be run with the handwheels (mpgs) like a manual, and also via cnc, do basic contouring and threading, and i want to document this, so the next fellow who might be a machinist and a mechanic but not an electronics guy can benefit from my experience.  there is obviously a ton of knowledge in this community, an awful lot has been done with mach3.  my task ahead seems simple compared to that.  but i dont have that ton of knowledge.  help me out, what is my next bitty step?

thanks in advance
ken

.

Offline Hood

*
  •  25,846 25,846
  • Carnoustie, Scotland
    • View Profile
Re: Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2012, 05:28:24 AM »
I would say if you are used to servos you will be disappointed if you go to steppers with the low acceleration and rapids that they will have in comparison. I am not saying steppers wont do a good job but they will not be any where near the performance you will get from a servo. That may not matter to you but I know for me steppers are not something I would go back to on a lathe or mill.
 If your motors and drives are sound you MAY be able to use them with one of the motion controllers available for Mach that can output analogue control voltage however saying that I have heard people having issues integrating Fanuc stuff, will all depend I suppose on the encoder type on the fanucs.
 Hood

Offline Sam

*
  • *
  •  987 987
    • View Profile
    • hillbillyhilton.com
Re: Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2012, 12:52:24 AM »
Been using a Fast Trace for over a decade. Never had one problem from it (so far). Did it not run in its current state? I do find the conversational programming capabilities extremely lacking, to say the least, but I don't think I would go so far as to completely change everything out, in fear of a costly repair that may never happen. As far as steppers or servos, I would go with servos 100%.
"CONFIDENCE: it's the feeling you experience before you fully understand the situation."

Offline Dan13

*
  •  1,208 1,208
    • View Profile
    • DY Engineering
Re: Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2012, 05:01:43 AM »
Had a look at the Fanuc drives in the Bargain Basement section and looks they are Alpha series drives and it means they won't work with Mach3. They have some kind of proprietary control signals (not analogue nor pulse and direction) which is not documented well enough anywhere to figure what they are. Have these drives on a mill I bought thinking I could use them, but unfortunately I then discovered I couldn't :(


Dan
Re: Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2012, 09:32:02 AM »
i am grateful to see the quick replies to this thread.  i will respond here to all who have posted so far.  feel free to tell me if my thinking is faulty, i am just a machinist, all the electronica is new to me.

regarding stepper vs servo, i understand well that the servo is the more capable system in most ways.  the reason i find myself aimed at steppers is not so much the cost but what seems to be the simpler install.  i have been reviewing Patrick Hood-Daniel videos on youtube, his 9 part series that have "CNC Electronics" in the title seems to me to be concise, i understand what he's doing, even though my electric/electronic knowledge is weak.  if i could get guidance at that level, i like the looks of this servo kit:

http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/servo-nema34-kits/3-axis-nema34-1125ozin-72v20a-psu-g230x-gecko-driver

im sure they would sell me a 2 axis version, but im not sure i could install it, not being an electronics guy, and not knowing how concise their instructions would be, or how much support they could/would provide via phone or email. i am prepared to work on the install slow, and safe, just worried i will fry my investment.  a stepper kit in the 1800 oz-in range or a lil bigger looks to me to be an easier install.  but again, this is an unexperienced opinion.

regarding speed, ive watched youtube vids of a bridgeport knee being driven at 120 ipm by servos, 50 ipm by steppers, and ive seen cncmasters claim their 14 x 40 lathe max speed is 100 ipm.  i think i could live with 100 ipm.  their unit is direct drive, and they claim 40 tpi on their lead screw (seems high).  my lathe has not yet been closely measured, but the pulley reduction and ball screws look similar to my mill, which would be 2 to 1 on the pulleys and 5 tpi on the ballscrew.  i am hoping i can use this to my advantage, 150 ipm rapid is my mills max speed, (80 on the knee, just because it works smoother that way) that would work fine for me on the lathe, tho with the fanuc stuff it is closer to 300 ipm.  the 17 yr old kiwa horizontal mill i run days is just under 1800 ipm rapids, even that is slow these days.

regarding the fast trace, i ran it for about 8 or 9 years.  it was basically reliable, in that time i needed an x servo motor and the crt unit replaced.  then the keypad developed some small issues, and now the 914 error (see my post in the bargain basement) and i need the fanuc guy again.  im lucky enough to have had 2 guys local at $50 an hour, but the 1st guy passed away, and the 2nd is not always available quickly.  and the real factory fanuc guy gets much much more $$.  my move to a pc control is because i cannot afford to have (or wait for) the Fanuc man come here, as i approach (semi) retirement.  i need a system i can understand and maintain myself.  including parts and costs.  a refurb power supply exactly like my item 2 in my bargain basement post was listed on ebay a few day ago for over $2000.  yikes.  if i lose a bit of performance, i will have to live with it.

thanks to all, keep those comments coming.  whats my next small step?


Offline Hood

*
  •  25,846 25,846
  • Carnoustie, Scotland
    • View Profile
Re: Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2012, 01:56:57 PM »
Good infor Dan, thanks. I suspected that would be the case if they were fairly modern Fanuc drives/motors but I was unsure how old they actually were.

metlcutr55
Servos are really not any harder to wire up than steppers, yes you have encoder wires and possibly, depending on style of drives, more I/O to the drive, but still fairly straightforward. Where it gets a bit harder is the tuning, steppers its just a case of putting conservative numbers into Mach and you are set. With servos you have to tune the drives PID but usually that isnt too hard. In Mach servos motor tuning is probably if anything easier as you know the Velocity you will get from your motor/drive specs and the only thing you need to trial out is to find the acceleration.
 Regarding that kit you linked to, it would do but Geckos servo drives are not the best around from what I have heard. Their stepper drives are market leader but seems their servo drives fall a bit short of others that are now available. CNC Drives from Hungary seem to have the crown in the low end servo drive stakes at the moment so may be worth looking at them.
 Now the rapids are not the thing that would concern me, its the slow acceleration of steppers when compared to servos that is much more important in all aspects of machining. As an example of the difference that can be expected  I had steppers on my Bridgeport, I got 2200mm/min rapids with 120mm/s/s  acceleration. I changed it over to AC servos and could get 6000mm/min rapids but much more importantly the acceleration was 10x fatser being 1200mm/s/s. The gearing etc was the same with both setups, the only difference being the motor types.

 It sounds as if I am dead against steppers but I am not, they do a reasonable job as long as you can live with their performance but once you have seen servos running a machine you will be dissapointed with anything less.
Hood
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 01:59:07 PM by Hood »
Re: Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2012, 08:19:10 PM »
thanks Hood

i do understand about the acceleration of the servos, if i were drilling a 20 x 20 pattern of 400 holes on my dc brush servo mill, say small holes, in a 4" x 4" square for example, my mill would jump hole to hole very quickly, due to the acceleration even tho the rapid is only 150 ipm.  i can see watching the stepper vids that task would take noticeably longer.  if the guidance from the sellers of the servo kit is good i bet i could do it, but looking around the net, i rely on vids like i mentioned before, from Patrick Hood-Daniels, and another set i watched yesterday, cnc g704 parts 1 & 2, from someone called "n1bpd", all on youtube.  im pretty sure i can do what theyve done, but they are both stepper based and i find no step by step simple vids like those for servo setups.

regarding the gecko kit i mentioned below, i picked it because it has the biggest servo motors i could find from a vendor who seems to have large sales and a good reputation. i would not be opposed to keling, viper, dugong or whale drives, im not sure if any of these are the Hungarian drives you refer to, but i whatever kit i choose will have to have directions that are not vague to the neophyte (me).  i will need step by step instruction, on a basic level, like the videos i have mentioned.  or a lot of handholding here on the forum.  i read somewhere that 75% of the basic cnc builds never get completed.  i dont want to be part of that group.  id like a servo driven lathe, but a stepper driven lathe would be preferable to a manual lathe and a box of servo components in a box under a bench.  for me ac motors and drives are likely out at this point, just because of cost.  also that when you say tune PID, i dont even know what you mean.  likely i can learn.  im all ears fellas!!  thanks!

ken

Offline Hood

*
  •  25,846 25,846
  • Carnoustie, Scotland
    • View Profile
Re: Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 03:10:29 AM »
I looked at your parts for sale and the servos seem quite small if I am reading correctly, 500watt and 3000rpm so torque of about 1.9Nm continuous.
That seems quite small so could you confirm that is the case?
If thats right then you may find some second hand AC servo kits on Ebay from South Korea that may do. I have one, a Samsung Fara, on the Z of the wee lathe I am doing and it works very well and didnt even require tuning, it automatically tunes itself..
Hood
Re: Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 03:47:48 PM »
hi Hood!

all i can read on the z motor is correct in my ad desc "A06B-0032-B077#7076  3.2 amps 176 volts AC" there is more there but id need to get the motor out to read it.

looked at the faulty x motor again, "0.5 kw continuous  166 volt 3.2 amps  200Hz freq.  speed- 3000 min(-1)"  it has what looks like a 1/2" dia shaft.

fwiw, these are fanuc red cap motors.

i have no interest in reusing any fanuc in the machine.  the only servos i have considered are the teco .75kw unit offered by Machmotion, by themselves without a kit they run over $800 ea for driver and motor.  too rich for me right now.  and i do not want used components.

i am still interested in that servo kit with the geckos, although they appear to be out of stock.  they appear like they back their product, and should their drivers not be up to task, once i had learned enough to set up the system in the 1st place, perhaps replacing with a stronger better driver would be an easier task for me. and i do like the use of encoders vs just having steppers.

i am not yet convinced i am up to the servo install without very basic guidance from the seller and this community.  as i said i am making pretty good sense from the stepper videos listed below that i have been viewing, and am leaning stepper, because of cost and simplicity.  i am looking with interest at a 2 axis version of this kit,

http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/stepper-nema34-3-axis-kits/nema-34-stepper-motors-3-4-axis-kit-1

once again for simplicities sake, the driver power supply being built in is attractive to me.  might not be the best choice, it is just a guess on my part.  i might request a fancier breakout board, to possibly control a vfd in the future.

once the fanuc is gone, except for axis control i have just spindle off-on, spindle motor hi-low range selection, spindle brake (mechanical, should trigger with the spindle off, then release once rpms are 0) to figure out how to do.  the other 2 features to control are just coolant and oiler, i can run these manually until i have time to figure it out.  oh and the limit switches, they appear to be 2 switches with ramps and rollers on ea axis, with the fanuc on, you pulled the joystick to home the axis, it rapids to the 1st roller, then slowed and hit the 2nd roller, reversed the axis for a short direction, voila you were at home.

i will have a bunch of relays and contactors left over unless someone makes me an offer for the fanuc system turnkey, but unless my electric/electronics helper encourages me to use these i will likely just source these new also.

ive had no offers on the fanuc system complete, ill wait a little longer, then start to see if anyone wants to buy as individual components across the boards, on craigslist and ebay.

what should i do next?  thanks, and keep the input coming.

ken





 

Offline Hood

*
  •  25,846 25,846
  • Carnoustie, Scotland
    • View Profile
Re: Nardini Fasttrace 220 goes from Fanuc to Mach3
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2012, 05:54:35 PM »
How big is the lathe as I would have expected much bigger motors than that even on the X. Maybe I am just thinking its a bigger machine than it is.
Personally I dont see anything wrong with used parts, on all my machines I only have used drives/motors, the thing is they are all industrial grade so tend to be very high quality and will last for much longer than the cheaper drives often bought new by people doing retrofits.
 Regarding the stepper drives with on board power supplies, definitely a good thing in my mind, all the AC servo drives I use do it that way, save a lot of hassles and you can be sure the power supplies are up to the job :)
Hood