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New configuration now homing issues.
« on: January 25, 2012, 05:21:40 AM »
I have been using Mach3 for some time, first with a Sherline mill then with a custom made cast steel VMC.

These machines had 20TPI screws and home switches and ref-all-home would break the switch contact and then backs off roughly 1/2 of a turn (0.0250in) and the switch requires only 0.0220in of travel to unload so this worked good.

Due to the need of a micro machine with high precision and accuracy I employed 50TPI 0.3750in DIA screws and home switches and now I am unable to home the machine since the 1/2 turn results in only 0.0100in of travel which is insufficient to unload the switches.

I have googled this to death and poured over the manual but I can't seem to find anything that tells me where to set the amount of back-off

Please do not offer solutions or ideas that do not involve config settings and if you don't know the answer please don't offer possible solutions to try, I don't have any more time to play with this and the frustration has gotten the better of me.

If you tell me there is no settings in the config for adjusting the amount of back-off I can accept that and resolve this another way which you may not like.

I see great potential with this software but it's short-comings are a pain in my ass and relying on you (ArtSoft) to provide a fix in a timely manner far exceeds the time I have to resolve this.

I have a history of fixing things on my own in a manner that offends the creators of the software because they wont resolve it in a timely manner and wont allow me access to the source to fix it so I end up doing the educational examination of the code by decompiling (yes I own IDA-Pro and know how to use it) and fixing whatever is wrong with it and while EULA's have provision that prohibit this, the DMCA has laws, rules and regulations that protect me from prosecution if I do it under certain conditions and at my age, I no longer care who I piss off when I need something fixed because it doesn't work right.

Yes, I have been threatened by many companies with lawsuits, have had legal departments harass me (Apple is a good example that comes to my mind) yet I have never been served or prosecuted, unlike most, I am not intimidated by lawyers or legal departments and a letter from a lawyer or legal department isn't worth the stamp they placed on it when they have no legal standing to prevent me from my intended goal, my thoughts, I will do it with your assistance, under an NDA if you are insecure or on my own if you wont fix it or allow me access to the code to fix it myself.

Bare in mind, if I do it on my own I am not bound by any obligations NOT to discuss the process, my results, concepts or the process involved but at least I have the courtesy of telling you in advance that it will be resolved even if you refuse to fix it or allow me under your control/supervision to fix it.

ArtSoft, not happy reading this??  I'm not happy that it's not working so we're even, if the solution isn't already available, what happens next is entirely up to you, this is not a feature request you can shelve till you're ready to add it, I need it now and don't care how it gets done or who fixes it as long as it gets fixed.

Offline RICH

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Re: New configuration now homing issues.
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 06:12:03 AM »
Your attitude reflects your true nature and is no wonder that you can't get anybody to help resolve an issue.
We don't tolerate threats to the site or to any user on this site.

RICH

Offline stirling

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Re: New configuration now homing issues.
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2012, 07:08:12 AM »
An extraordinary post - your attitude is probably why you're so frustrated. If maybe you want to actually solve your problem rather than rant then there's a couple of things you need to know.

1) This forum is populated and run by Mach3 USERS who give of their time and expertise COMPLETELY FREELY. They (we) have absolutely NO connection whatsoever with Artsoft. If you have a problem with General Motors do you take it up with them or your neighbourhood enthusiasts? If you talk to your neighbourhood enthusiasts like you've talked to us - how much help do you think you'd get?

2) Your problem with homing is because YOU don't understand how it works - you've made that abundantly clear by these two statements:

These machines had 20TPI screws and home switches and ref-all-home would break the switch contact and then backs off roughly 1/2 of a turn (0.0250in) and the switch requires only 0.0220in of travel to unload so this worked good.

Due to the need of a micro machine with high precision and accuracy I employed 50TPI 0.3750in DIA screws and home switches and now I am unable to home the machine since the 1/2 turn results in only 0.0100in of travel which is insufficient to unload the switches.

Finally your statement:

I'm not happy that it's not working so we're even, if the solution isn't already available, what happens next is entirely up to you, this is not a feature request you can shelve till you're ready to add it, I need it now and don't care how it gets done or who fixes it as long as it gets fixed.
There's NOTHING to fix. You just don't understand why it's not working for YOU. YOU of course won't believe this - and that's your problem.
Re: New configuration now homing issues.
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2012, 09:16:44 AM »
Hello DWalsh62,
If you can find what you are looking for by decompiling the code go for it! The trouble is that it is not going to help you.. There is NO setting for the pull off amount. I will tell you how homing works and then I will tell you about what is going on with your system.

How it works:
1.) Machine starts by doing a move looking for the home switch
2.) Switch is found and motor decelerates (based on the motor tuning settings)
3.) Motor reverses looking for the switch to open back up at 20% of the home speed (this is what you are calling the pull off move)
4.) Switch opens back up and the motor decelerates
5.) Axis machine position is set to zero

As you can see I never said anything about pull off distance because there is none..

What could be your issue (this is after working on problems like this for over 10 years) :
Electrical noise... How do you know that is what it is .. well I think you are telling me that it is not pulling off the home switch. On the diagnostics page please tell me if the home switch is still active after the homing is done. If the machine is on the switch you need to add some debounce to the inputs. This can be found under config general config, I would start with about 500 and see if that helps.

Now as far as you thinking that we are not responding ... I could see that there where people looking at your post as soon as you put it up.. ALSO we have full time support staff to see that if you contact us you will get taken care of in a reasonable time. I don't see the need for being so nasty, it is okay because I forgive you :) I know it can be frustrating when setting up a machine and you need to get parts done and you are dealing with software issues. Best of luck and if you need help please feel free to contact me directly.

Thanks
Brian
Fixing problems one post at a time ;)

www.newfangledsolutions.com
www.machsupport.com
Re: New configuration now homing issues.
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2012, 03:48:33 AM »
Yes, frustration can get the better of you at times and sometimes this prevents you from seeing the forest through the trees.

After a couple of hours sleep I read your response and decided to re-attack the problem from an analytical perspective which yielded some surprising results.

Hello DWalsh62,
If you can find what you are looking for by decompiling the code go for it! The trouble is that it is not going to help you.. There is NO setting for the pull off amount. I will tell you how homing works and then I will tell you about what is going on with your system.
Acknowledge decompiling to add/adjust would be a waste of time if the option is not present.
How it works:
1.) Machine starts by doing a move looking for the home switch
2.) Switch is found and motor decelerates (based on the motor tuning settings)
3.) Motor reverses looking for the switch to open back up at 20% of the home speed (this is what you are calling the pull off move)
4.) Switch opens back up and the motor decelerates
5.) Axis machine position is set to zero

As you can see I never said anything about pull off distance because there is none..
Understood.
What could be your issue (this is after working on problems like this for over 10 years) :
Electrical noise... How do you know that is what it is .. well I think you are telling me that it is not pulling off the home switch. On the diagnostics page please tell me if the home switch is still active after the homing is done. If the machine is on the switch you need to add some debounce to the inputs. This can be found under config general config, I would start with about 500 and see if that helps.
Here is what I tested at 1% home speed in Config->Homing/Limits (to obtain maximum error response).

1) home switches wired as Normally Open on each axis and limits wired as Normally Closed (on different inputs).
2) connect oscilloscope  to home switch and perform homing tests.
3) 34us after contact, circuit is broken for 347us (mechanical switch bounce) with installed micro cherry switch (red/black - ebay purchased).
4) test with larger cherry switch with stronger spring 17us / 841us / 214us (double mechanical switch bounce - bigger is not better) (white/black with screw terminals - CNC4PC purchased).
5) test with smaller micro cherry switch with weaker spring 29us / 289us (tan/black - ebay purchased).
6) test with proximity switch (4 random switches) 3us / 1721us  (electrical noise but no bounce).
7) test with optical switch (4 random switches) 1us / 1389us (electrical noise but no bounce).

note: cherry switches are all roller lever type, no mechanical bounce issues present in switch wired in NC configuration.

CONCLUSION:
issue is mechanical switch bounce and cannot be completely removed but a 1.0uf cap + 1N4148 diode will reduce this considerably to acceptable level while allowing for quick recovery due to low voltage.
electrical switches have electrical noise but can be filtered out and bounce is non-existent.

SOLUTION:
replace mechanical switches with optical switches with LC (inductive / capacitive) or RC (resistive / capacitive) filters (DC passing) results in optimal performance at minimal cost.

NEXT STEP:
create small PCB with 5V supply regulation, filter networks to support eight optical/proximity switch I/O, two probe switch/sensor I/O and one tri-channel digitizing I/O (never know what I might be doing in future).

Now as far as you thinking that we are not responding ... I could see that there where people looking at your post as soon as you put it up.. ALSO we have full time support staff to see that if you contact us you will get taken care of in a reasonable time. I don't see the need for being so nasty, it is okay because I forgive you :) I know it can be frustrating when setting up a machine and you need to get parts done and you are dealing with software issues. Best of luck and if you need help please feel free to contact me directly.

Thanks
Brian


If it isn't apparently obvious, I am also apologizing for my outburst, my frustration excuse is insufficient to warrant/justify it and I never gave you the opportunity to advise on the problem which you deserved.
Re: New configuration now homing issues.
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2012, 10:43:11 AM »
Hello,
There is a setting under config General config called Debounce. Please put in 500 for a debounce setting and give it a test!

No need for caps and all that fun stuff ;)
Thanks
Brian
Fixing problems one post at a time ;)

www.newfangledsolutions.com
www.machsupport.com
Re: New configuration now homing issues.
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 12:28:07 PM »
Hello,
There is a setting under config General config called Debounce. Please put in 500 for a debounce setting and give it a test!

No need for caps and all that fun stuff ;)
Thanks
Brian
Yes Brian I agree, the solution you offer will make it work but now that I am aware that I have mechanical/electrical related issues I would rather correct them so that any future issues will not be influenced by them.

I made some small DC passing filters to ensure the selected component values are correct and the bounce has been eliminated so I'm having the boards made and silkscreened in the next couple of days and then I'll install them in the control cabinet.

Offline ttm

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Re: New configuration now homing issues.
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2012, 04:28:48 PM »
Hello DWalsh62,
If you can find what you are looking for by decompiling the code go for it! The trouble is that it is not going to help you.. There is NO setting for the pull off amount. I will tell you how homing works and then I will tell you about what is going on with your system.

How it works:
1.) Machine starts by doing a move looking for the home switch
2.) Switch is found and motor decelerates (based on the motor tuning settings)
3.) Motor reverses looking for the switch to open back up at 20% of the home speed (this is what you are calling the pull off move)
4.) Switch opens back up and the motor decelerates
5.) Axis machine position is set to zero

As you can see I never said anything about pull off distance because there is none..

What could be your issue (this is after working on problems like this for over 10 years) :
Electrical noise... How do you know that is what it is .. well I think you are telling me that it is not pulling off the home switch. On the diagnostics page please tell me if the home switch is still active after the homing is done. If the machine is on the switch you need to add some debounce to the inputs. This can be found under config general config, I would start with about 500 and see if that helps.

Now as far as you thinking that we are not responding ... I could see that there where people looking at your post as soon as you put it up.. ALSO we have full time support staff to see that if you contact us you will get taken care of in a reasonable time. I don't see the need for being so nasty, it is okay because I forgive you :) I know it can be frustrating when setting up a machine and you need to get parts done and you are dealing with software issues. Best of luck and if you need help please feel free to contact me directly.

Thanks
Brian

I really need someone like yours help with mach, although I am not upset with anyone or the software or the machine, I just am not getting it is all, I have spent over 100 hours trying to figure this stuff out and am pretty frustrated, again not with anyone or anything but myself, it does not seem this confusing. but for me it is right now for some reason

I can;t even figure out how to set 0.0 as home (not limit switches, and I _think_ I understand the difference thanks to Tom at CandCNC)  righ now my machine started going +1.0 on z Axis even after setting all axis to zero at a given location for instance, I have my z about 3" off the table, press zero, then if I press go home, it blasts right past that and the dro reads +1.0

I'm not sure what I have done to create this issue
I looked at he videos some, is there a way I can download them to take them out to the shop by the machine?

thank you

thank you
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 04:30:37 PM by ttm »

Offline stirling

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Re: New configuration now homing issues.
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2012, 07:39:29 AM »
ttm - please don't double post. Apart from anything else it's discourteous to the very knowledgeable people who are currently helping you in your other thread.

Thanks

Offline ttm

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Re: New configuration now homing issues.
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2012, 05:26:22 PM »
ttm - please don't double post. Apart from anything else it's discourteous to the very knowledgeable people who are currently helping you in your other thread.

Thanks

did not mean to come off discourteous, I was merely impressed how he handled a situation, it'snot everyday you see something like that.  the folks on the other thread helped me out really well,