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Author Topic: convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M  (Read 7978 times)

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convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M
« on: August 12, 2011, 01:18:00 AM »
Hello,

I'm just a DIY'er, not a business or anything like that, so my (or that of would be employee(s)) life and/or livelihood doesn't depend on quick or even unquestionable opinions...just what's left of my hair and my sanity.   I have 2 broken mills; the second just died last week.  I bought the second in response to the first dying and was kicking around the idea of either selling it as a manual machine or converting it to mach 3 which I thought might take some time and considerable effort.  I found a decent machine at a reasonable price and bought it.  I used it a few times and winter comes, so my shop (garage) gets crunched down and in effect becomes all but unusable until late spring so I can park my truck inside.  The “extra” mill didn’t help any.  I use it a few more times and it dies to.  The mills are in good shape but lack working/operational CNC.  So... buying a CNC machine and having the controls die and thus considering selling it for a loss on eBay (or what not) as a manual milling machine would be a hit to say the least; but it wouldn't be the end of the world.  Two machines however, are unacceptable.  So, at the very least: the time to learn, mistakes, headaches, etc. are now divided by two machines.  What little research I've done points me to Mach 3.  The servos work and would like to reuse them if possible/practical.  I already have a computer to use.  I'm currently heehawing between the Galil 41x3 and the DSPMC for the motion control card.  I haven’t completely ruled out others and am very open to suggestions.  I believe that a working CNC machine far out values a non-operational and thus manual machine, so much that if done correctly would be cost beneficial.  The “extra” machine in my shop would sell faster and for more.   I don’t think I would make much if any but that by far out ways losing money on it.  As far as the one I keep for myself, it would just be the better.  I’m not against saving money but if I’m going to do it I want to do it right, within reason of course.  If the servos need to be replaced then they will.  But for simplicity and cost I would prefer to use them.  This last winter I’ve been a regular “guest” here and as such have seen some really good advice offered.  So here I am looking for some advice as well.  The first fork in the road is controller with the servos being the major factor.  The servos in question are Anilam model 37000117 DC servos.  Torque 31.25 in. lbs.,  Max volt: 200,  Peak amp: 30.8,  Cur.A.: 6.18,  Res. Ohms: 1.5,  Ind.min.: 6.8,  SEMF-V/1000rpms: 60.0,  Nax rpm: 2400,  Tach-V/1000rpm: 9.56,   JA-LB-in-sec2: 0.000063.  Ant advice would be greatly appreciated.  If I use the existing servos, which motion control board do I choose?  If I go with different servos then which MC do I choose?  What amp is best?  I want to use servos and control them via Ethernet.  Thank you in advance!

Offline BR549

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Re: convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2011, 12:51:25 PM »
OK first you get the $20 dollar CNC controller lecture.

Mach3 can be a very effective low cost controller. BUT when you move away from the basic controll function of MACH3 (lpt) you now are at the mercy of the person or group that developes and supports the Plugin interface and supports the hardware. That support CAN dissapear in the blink of an eye.

There have been MANY outside controllers for mach3 that have come and gone. Mainly it became more trouble and cost than it was worth to them.

I have seen many 100s of users jump out of the pan into the fire JUST to get burned in the end when support for their special thingy got dropped. Many invested a great deal of money and time into those thingys

IF you leave the comfort AND support of the MACH3 enviroment(lpt) there may be NO ONE here that can help you IF your controller support disappears next week.

SO NOW you have been forwarned.  WELCOME ABOARD.


Are there specific reasons to go to ethernet COM? Have you considered USB?

(;-) TP
Re: convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 07:17:51 PM »
TP:

What $20 lecture?

Yes, I'm aware of some of the pitfalls and assume there are many  more that I'm not aware of.  Support is of great concern to me.  I'm not set on anything yet.  Once I start shelling out cash, then I'm committed.  I was under impression that the ethernet connection was better.  The computer is about a year old and runs Windows 7 64bit (touch screen) and has both usb and ethernet.  I don't think it has a printer port though.  I am leaning towards the Galil 41x3 series or the DSPMC V.2 series because there seems to be some love for these controllers on this site.  I don't think either company is going under anytime quick.  I would like to use the existing drives but am concerned about driving them.  I'm sure I can figure out how to replace them if it makes things elsewhere easier/better/cheaper.  I'm not interested in steppers even though they are many peoples favorite option.  If you know of I better control option please let me know.  Any suggestions on what servos to use?  Maybe I should start there.

Offline Hood

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Re: convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 07:36:00 PM »
First thing to say is W7 64Bit is no use if using the parallel port so you will either need to get a 32bit version or go with XP or W2K if you are considering that. 64Bit should be fine if using an external controller such as Galil and DSPMC that you mentioned. The other one to look at is the Kflop with the Kanalog board if you are wanting to use your original drives, that is presuming they only accept -10+10v input which is most likely.

If you wanted to keep the original motors and just replace the drives then you could take a look at the Dugong drives from cncdrives.com, they seem to get a good name and should handle the voltage and current of your motors no problem. If you went that route then you open a few more doors, you could get a 32bit OS and use a parallel port (PCI ones are available) or you could use the Kflop, a SmoothStepper or a Centipede or of course you could still use the Galil or DSPMC.

If your motors use resolvers or glass scales are used for feedback at the moment, you would need to get encoders for them which ever way you go (Galil, DSPMC, SS, PP, Kflop|)

Hood
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM by Hood »
Re: convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2011, 01:52:07 AM »
Hood,

Thanks for the reply.  I actually purchased the computer last summer with the sole purpose for the retrofit.  Its a all-in-one thing which I usually avoid but went with it.   It has a keyboard and mouse like normal but also has a touch screen.  It’s maybe a little overboard but I'm OK with spoiling myself from time to time.  Because it’s an all-in-one (full computer but built into the back of a  LCD) there is no room for expansion for drives or cards.  Not a chance of installing PCI cards of any kind.  The gripe I have is that these bed mills (one: SWI Trak and the other: Fryer Anilam bed mills when new were not even close to normal computers at the time of purchase.  One was a 286 and the other is a 386 while Pentium III's were common.  Brand new the computers on these machines were obsolete.  On top of that, every thing uses proprietary parts and connecters.  ARRRRG!  I first looked into price last year when the monitor and keypad where showing their age a few weeks before it died.  I don't remember the actual price but in the ballpark of $750 each. Something like 5 few years ago these companies started offering a USB option for a couple hundred on their new controls.  These giants wonder why new customers are running away and old ones are retrofitting instead of buying their parts.  Without getting too much farther with my rant, XP will no longer be supported in a few months and if the past is any indication for the future, then my almost new and practically unused computer is already dated.  I'm not trying to be an ass and please don't take it that way, I really need to bounce ideas off somebody and I was thrilled to see Hood responded (your a hero on this site), but I refuse to downgrade my computer.  This is one of the reasons why Mach 3 is so popular.  I can use common easy to find parts.  Starting out, I don’t want to be 5 years behind the times like the professional giants.  If my computer dies I want to be able to put another one in with some ease.  Wireless, firewire, USB, and Ethernet are going to be around for a while.  So I know that I'm limiting my choices now, but I want to future proof it a little.  I'm only considering hooking it up though the USB or the Ethernet port.  I'm not rich...far from it, but I am only 38 and plan on reaping the rewards of a quality rebuild for many a year.  So while price matters (15 year old retrofit) it’s not everything.  If something is 4 times better for twice the price…. Sure…Maybe, but a little bit for an extra grand ….no-way.  Using the old servos is ideal unless that really complicates things or makes the other parts needed overly expensive.  I assume brushed DC servos are going to be around for a while yet, right?  If not maybe I should make sure that the stuff I use will work or convert easily to brush-less servos as well.  This project just keeps getting more variables.   Do you know if Anilam's  DC servos model 37000117 use the +-10 v for sure.   Kflop with the Kanalog board might be perfect.  I'll add that to the short list.  Dugong and Granite seem popular.  Is Centipede new?  I haven’t seen much about them.  How do I know if the servos have resolvers or encoders?  I don’t even know how much servos cost.  Maybe there’s not much choice at all.  Thanks so much for suggestions and in advance for any new.

Offline Hood

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Re: convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2011, 03:17:34 AM »
Motherboards are still coming with drivers for W98 so going back to XP even though it is to become unsupported by Microsoft does not really mean it it will make your hardware obsolete. If you are just going to use the computer for the controller then compatibility between other software and the OS are not really an issue. I however do see why you wish to keep things as they are so just saying ;)
Having said that as your computer is  likely not made of off the shelf components you may only get drivers for W7 onwards, it is often the case for Laptops which again are similar in that they do not use off the shelf parts. That is why I like to build my own computers as I know I can easily get new parts without having to go to one vendor only, even if it means different brand etc. Then again a few of my machines run on Via Pico mobos so I am sort of tied to a certain manufacturer for them but as they are tiny all in one mobos then if it goes wrong a new one would be needed anyway so a change could easily be made. In fact I wonder if your mobo may be a Pico as they are only 100mm x 72mm so would be perfect for going in the back of a LCD monitor.  On the new build I am doing for the Bridgeport I am using a slightly bigger mobo, its an Atom based mobo but is still fairly small, 170mm x 170mm and there are many differnt makers of them.  Good thing however is all of these mobos (Pico, Atom etc) use industry standard connections for things like hard drives and memory so no issues getting that :)

 DC servos are now less popular, in fact almost obsolete in the world of new machine tools but they will still be getting made for a long time yet whether by Western companies or Asian, so if they work then no reason to throw them out. Also they dont often go wrong as long as you keep the brushes in good condition.
 AC servos are becoming cheaper but still more expensive than DC and AC are not so easy to match with drives, for a beginner it would be best to get a matched set so it means picking up bargains are not so easy until you know exactl what you are looking for.

Knowing whether its a resolver is not so easy unless you can see it, amount of wires may hold a clue and metering may also but easiest way is to see it, so if you can take a pic of the end of the motor it may help although you may have to take the end can off the end of the motor to see the resolver or encoder. I would say there is a good chance it wont be a resolver but there is also a good chance there is no encoder as I think Anilam tended to use Glass scales on the axis but you will easily see if thats the case.

Its it the Servo motor that has the number above? I think it may be and that has no baring on whether the drive(amplifier) needs -10+10v input, it is the drive model that will determine that.

The important thing to know for DC motors and matching to drives is the Voltage and Current ratings, you know that so you are fine. The motor can handle a max of 200V DC but I would imagine they actually use a lot less on your mill, if you can measure the voltage of the DC supply going to the drives then you will know what they are currently using, I suspect somewhere around the 90 to 120v.

Hood
Re: convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2011, 04:16:36 PM »
Hood

Now that I see what servos cost I definitely want to use the existing servos.  All three servos are the same.  I pulled the Z-axis off and took a look.  It has a Renco encoder Model RS15D- P1-1000-1/4-5-CA18-LD-0-M1.  I checked there site and that means:
Model: RS15 (Sq. wave 2 channel quadrature with index---TI AM26LS31CD or LM2901 output format---up to 200KHz freq. response
Channels: Dual CH + index
Resolution: 1000 PPR
1/4" shaft
5 volt
18" leads
Output interface: Line Driver (TI AM26LS31CD typical output, 26LS32 typical line receiver, output sinks & sources 20mA, Nominal power requirements 135mA
ungated index width 360 degrees+-20%
M1 mounting

No clue as to what all that means or what the “P1” is for as that isn't supposed to be there.  

1000 line encoders seemed to give enough resolution before and if they will work (communicate) with the MC board then they are good enough for me.  If not then I’ll have to change them.  It looks easy enough to do.  

Inside the cabinet there are two power supplies and large capacitor.  

The fist one is a +5VDC 6a, +-15VDC 2a.
The second is a 24vdc 1.2A.
The capacitor is a 5000MFD 200VDC pos +85 max surge 250 VDC seems to be ‘charged’ with an 115vac solid state repeat cycle timer.  
 


How do I attach pictures?

Offline Hood

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Re: convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2011, 05:41:39 PM »
Encoders look like they will work great :)
There is likely a power supply beside the drives or maybe the drives can take mains and have internal power supplies?

To attach pics use the additional options button on the reply page to browse and attach the pics.
Hood
Re: convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 10:33:24 PM »
Hood et al.,

I went ahead and ordered a Galil DMC-4040 with ICS-48032-F & ICS-48015 off of eBay (Listing 1807098800352) for $993.92.  Its a hell of a gamble.  I should get it in a week or so.  Now I have to figure out what else I need.  The ICS-48015 is the encoder wireing board so I'll need two more of them.  The ICS-48032-F is the I/O board.  Power plugs for drives and the unit itself.  Do I need amps?  What do you suggest for power supply(s)?

This message was supposed to post last night but didn’t go through.

Hood,

Thanks again, I don't know how I missed the additional options button.  Not very important but here is the picture.  I tried sending more but it keeps timing out.  Just below the 'main board ' at about half way down and from left to right:  +5VDC, +-15VDC power supply and to the right is the capacitor with 2 orange and 2 grey wires to each of the x, y, & z boards just below it.  Below this row starting on the left again, is the solid state repeat cycle timer (not visible except for the pigtails coming off) which feeds both the capacitor and the board (with 3 relays) just to the right, next of course is that same board with 3 relays, following that is the 24VDC power supply, and last are the x, y, & Z boards.  How do I determine the drives are +-10VDC controlled?  I don't see anything that supplies this unless the boards do themselves.  Do I just assume they are?  If they aren't what will I be out?  Are quadrature communication signal all the same?


Ok.... it just will not let me send a picture at all.

Offline Hood

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Re: convert retofit Fryer MB11 with Anilam 1100M
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 08:42:34 AM »
Will start with the pics, two possible reasons I can think of,
1. image is too large
2. an image with the same name  has been posted on the forum before.

With either of these I would expect the forum to give you an error message stating why they were refused.

Ok the capacitor connecting to the X Y and Z boards may well be part of the power supply to them.
The X Y and Z boards will be your Amplifiers (drives)

The -10 to +10 command voltage comes from the control so you will not have a power supply for it, it will simply be inputs on each axis card (amplifier)

Hood