Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: kolias on August 11, 2009, 08:11:29 PM
-
Although I reported this problem under another thread , I decided to make a new thread because it is a serious problem for me.
I’m advancing slowly with my first CNC router machine and I’m at the stage where I want to home my three axes and set the soft limits in mach3.
The problem I have however is that holding a keyboard arrow key to jog an axis works fine but is not consistent. Like if I press and hold down the up or down arrow key the Y axis moves fine in one direction but if I let go and press again the same key “sometimes” moves in the opposite direction. So I keep pressing the arrow key and hitting it to approach the home position slowly and all of a sudden it will start going in the opposite direction. Same for the X axis.
My Z axis is not working presently due to a bad driver board – I’m expecting a new one shortly. But switching cables around I have the same problem with the up / down keys.
I have checked the arrow keys in a Word document and Excel and they work fine.
Anyone had a similar problem? Any ideas for a solution?
Nicolas
-
I have not seen that before. What kind of keyboard you using? Silicone by chance? Any ps2 to usb or usb to ps2 adapters? Have you tried another keyboard yet?
Brett
-
I have not seen that before. What kind of keyboard you using? Silicone by chance? Any ps2 to usb or usb to ps2 adapters? Have you tried another keyboard yet?
Brett
That is the keyboard of a Dell Latitude laptop (C600). It is an old laptop build in 2000 but works great and perfect for a CNC in a small workshop. No ps2 to usb adapters. I have installed windows XP home and nothing else. I have 2 other computers but non with printer port. I will see if I can borough one from a friend
Nicolas
-
I would try a different KEYBOARD as I don't see that problem here.Jogging is rock solid here.
Could be a keyboard setting in XP??
Just a thought , (;-) TP
-
I would try a different KEYBOARD as I don't see that problem here.Jogging is rock solid here.
Could be a keyboard setting in XP??
Just a thought , (;-) TP
Don't think it is an XP setting, as I said keyboard works fine in other apps.
Perhaps re installing mach3? I might do that
Nicolas
-
Hi Nicolas,
I actually had a very similar thing happen to me but it turned out I had my wiring screwed up at the connector that mated to my control box.
I was getting random direction jogs when hitting only one direction on the keyboard. Once I looked into my wiring, it worked like a charm. Just something else to think about-
Dave
-
Hi Nicolas,
I actually had a very similar thing happen to me but it turned out I had my wiring screwed up at the connector that mated to my control box.
I was getting random direction jogs when hitting only one direction on the keyboard. Once I looked into my wiring, it worked like a charm. Just something else to think about-
Dave
Which wiring you are talking Dave? I will assume it is the motors wiring?
If that is yes you just switched the +A -A, +B -B motor wiring? Can you please elaborate what you actually did?
I checked today the System Hotkeys Setup and found that all jogkeys were set to 999. I change them to what they supposed to be but did not make any difference
Nicolas
-
Hi Nicolas,
Yes, it was the motor cable and I would have been more specific but I actually think I had a strand from one of the direction signals shorting out with another.
It was not a just a stupid wiring mistake, it was just a "sloppy" mistake as I had the individual wires in the correct places, just not a clean and tidy job. ::)
If I were you, I'd have a look at the wiring again just to be sure.
Dave
-
Thank you Dave, I will have a look
Nicolas
-
Put a voltmeter on the Dir pin and do your jogging and note whether its 5v or 0v then when it does its strange reversal thing have a look at the voltmeter and see if its swapped. Obviously this will have to be on the parallel cable side of your breakout board as you are wanting to check the signal direct from Mach, not sure how easy it will be to get that pin, will depend on the makeup of the board.
Hood
-
Put a voltmeter on the Dir pin and do your jogging and note whether its 5v or 0v then when it does its strange reversal thing have a look at the voltmeter and see if its swapped. Obviously this will have to be on the parallel cable side of your breakout board as you are wanting to check the signal direct from Mach, not sure how easy it will be to get that pin, will depend on the makeup of the board.
Hood
That should be very easy to do
My BOB has output connectors which I can wire as needed (presently nothing is connected there)
My direction pins are 3, 5 and 7. I will connect the voltmeter tomorrow and post back the results
Nicolas
-
You want the computer side of the BOB, not the drive side as you want to make sure the signal from Mach is the one thats getting reversed and not in the BOB.
Suppose I should have asked if the DROs in Mach are showing the unwanted reversal.
Hood
-
You want the computer side of the BOB, not the drive side as you want to make sure the signal from Mach is the one thats getting reversed and not in the BOB.
Suppose I should have asked if the DROs in Mach are showing the unwanted reversal.
Hood
Yes I understand, the outputs I mentioned are taken from the printer port. If you want to have a look at my BOB, here is the link.
http://www.probotix.com/manuals/PBX-RF_manual.pdf
I never noticed the DRO's if are moving when the axis is reversed. I will pay attention tomorrow and post back
Nicolas
-
You would have to connect to the port where I have circled in red to be sure as the connectors at the bottom have passed through the isolation. But knowing whether the DROs show the reversal will tell you as much anyway so easier to look there.
Hood
-
It will be difficult to connect there but I will give it a try and post back
Nicolas
-
As said above watching the DROs will tell you a lot so I would do that first.
Hood
-
As said above watching the DROs will tell you a lot so I would do that first.
Hood
Yes the DRO's are moving in both the X & Y axis but the number is always positive regardless of the direction (has always the plus sign infront)
Does this mean something?
Nicolas
-
Yes but when the axis starts reversing when it shouldnt are the numbers still counting the same way or do they start going the oppopsite? If same way then the problem is not Mach or keyboard but could be anything from Port out. So next step would be to put the volt meter on the Dir signals and see where its happening. If where I mentioned earlier is too difficult then try on the output blocks and see but if it does reverse there then you will have no option but to test on the port.
Hood
-
Actually just reading your post again, are you saying if you jog to zero and keep going then it doesnt show negative but starts counting up still positive?
Hood
-
ok I zero the X & Y and start to jog. The DRO's change according to the keyboard, pressing UP arrow numbers are positive and pressing DN arrow numbers are negative. But the axis is not following the keys I press. Like I keep pressing the UP and the axis will go one direction and when I release / press the same key again it changes direction. In other words the keyboard arrows works fine along with the DRO's but the axis goes like crazy in either directions, not consistent.
The manufacturer of the BOB said that I can take the readings from the outputs but I cant do that alone like holding the probes and joging the motors. Waiting for a friend to give me a hand
Nicolas
-
Ok so if the DROs still keep counting in the direction they were going previous to the random reversal then that means Mach and your Keyboard are fine and definitely is from the Port out. It could be noise or even I suppose a bad cable (broken wire) or it could be the BOB or even the drives. Checking with the voltmeter from port out the way on the Dir signal will soon get you to where the change is happening.
Yes there is nothing to stop you taking a reading from the BOBs outputs but if the signal changes there when it shouldnt then you need to go back to the Parallel cable input to the BOB and check there, if it changes there then its either the cable or the port, if it doesnt then its the BOB.
Hood
-
almost sounds like port pin setup problem where there are duplicates for step and direction pins(;-)
(;-) TP
-
Hi guys. I had this.
Hi all.
After quite a while of trouble free motoring, today I have random z movement, from the keyboard, and from the Tab controls. (press down get down, press down get down, press down get up
I can't see if you have tried jogging from the tab menu. If you get the same problem here, and you have Geckos, it is a bad connection in the blue plugs and pins. remake these, or just tighten the loose one. This has cured it for me.
Jim
-
Using the Tab menu makes no difference for me. My drivers are Probotix and the connections to the BOB are with ribbon cables.
Thru the suggestion from the CNCZone Forum I increased the direction pulse to 15 with no change to the problem but next to this setting there is also the step pulse which was set at 5uS (that is the min recommended setting). So I increased this setting to 10 and the results are fantastic! Both the X & Y axis almost never reverse. I hit the up arrow and as I jog, it keeps going all the way to home and only reversed twice. The X axis seems to be even better.
Due to other work I had to stop my testing but on the weekend I plan to increase this number gradually and see what happens.
Nicolas
-
If increasing the pulse time has helped, try to go into config., ports and pins, port set up and check sherline mode.
Brett
-
If increasing the pulse time has helped, try to go into config., ports and pins, port set up and check sherline mode.
Brett
Just did that, X axis noticed no change, Y axis was dead - pressing arrow keys DRO's change but motor is dead.
What the Sherline mode supposed to do anyway
Nicolas
-
It increases the time for step and direction to a value greater than can be acheived form the motor tuning page. Also, in general config, do you have the enhanced pulsing enabled (checked)?
Brett
-
It increases the time for step and direction to a value greater than can be acheived form the motor tuning page. Also, in general config, do you have the enhanced pulsing enabled (checked)?
Brett
Yes, Enhanced Pulsing is checked
Nicolas
-
You would have to connect to the port where I have circled in red to be sure as the connectors at the bottom have passed through the isolation. But knowing whether the DROs show the reversal will tell you as much anyway so easier to look there.
Hood
Hello Hood
As you can see from the attached image, it is almost impossible to take readings from the printer port because there is this plastic kind of head covering the pins. Since my DRO's are working good do you still think that I have to do that?
Since I have increased the value of the direction and step pulse in the motor tuning screen the situation has improved drastically but I still believe that the machine is not safe to use even with the occasional travel reversal.
-
Are your drives optically isolated on their Step/Dir inputs? I am thinking the Probotix is, so that would mean the Step/Dir is double isolated and that could well cause issues.
Hood
-
Measure the port at the back of the PC, or unplug the cable and measure it that way.
-
Are your drives optically isolated on their Step/Dir inputs? I am thinking the Probotix is, so that would mean the Step/Dir is double isolated and that could well cause issues.
Hood
Good day Hood
I’m not sure but I think my drives are optically isolated. Please have a look at this link for my drives.
http://www.probotix.com/manuals/ProboStepVX.pdf
Can you please explain what possible issues may be created?
I got my new drive yesterday and I plan to install it today. I was thinking that if the axis that it will be connected on the new drive is working well, then I will know that the other 2 drives are deffective. Also there is the posibility that connecting the third drive may solve the problem (maybe the BOB needs all drives connected to work properly)
After connecting the third drive I will take the readings on the outputs at BOB and post back the results. That should take about a couple of hours. Let me know if you want something else
Nicolas
-
Measure the port at the back of the PC, or unplug the cable and measure it that way.
What that would tell us?
We know that the PC is working well since the DROs working well
Nicolas
-
Dont see any mention of isolation there so probably not.
As for your last question, measuring at the port or cable end would determine whether the problem starts there, ie noise on the cable or a bad port but as it is now random and you would have the motors disconnected it would be hard to know if it should have changed as the DROs in Mach show correctly. You will probably not even see it with a voltmeter if its noise, a scope would be needed, so probably best just concentrating on the outputs of the BOB for the time being now we have determined Mach is acting correctly.
Hood
Hood
-
Well finally I think my problem is SOLVED!!!
I connected the new drive to the Y axis and this axis is now working PERFECT. The other axes are the same as before, reversing direction randomly and unpredictably
So as far as I can see the other 2 drivers are defective
Hood do you want me to do any other checks?
Nicolas
-
Personally I would swap one of the other drives out with the good one and see if the problem s follow the bad drive and go away with the good drive. However it does seem like you have scrap drives.
Hood
-
Personally I would swap one of the other drives out with the good one and see if the problem s follow the bad drive and go away with the good drive. However it does seem like you have scrap drives.
Hood
ok I will swap the ribbon cables and see the results
I noticed in the video tutorial the guy is dragging the jog screen (tab key) to any location. How do you drag this little screen to a new location? I try to drag it like any other screen but she does not move
Nicolas
-
As far as I know you can only expand it by moving the mouse to the left border of it then when you see the wee double arrow hold the mouse button and move left or right to resize.
Hood
-
As far as I know you can only expand it by moving the mouse to the left border of it then when you see the wee double arrow hold the mouse button and move left or right to resize.
Hood
That did not work. Anyway its not important, just cosmetics. Thought it was some kind of a trick
I did swap the new drive to the X axis and guess what. She was PERFECTLY!!! Good thinking Hood, now I know for sure that the other 2 drives are scrap.
Very disappointed with Probotix, they senT me 3 scrap drives and wasted so much time. Will notify them now and ask to send me 2 new drives by next day delivery (I doubt they will do that).
Thank you so much for your great help
Nicolas
-
Forgot to add that although the drives I received from Probotix were defective, the service from them is above excellent. They seems knowledgable and answer email promptly. I wonder if they knew that my drives were defective
Nicolas
-
I will say that I had bought a drive and BOB from them about a year ago and they were excellent with customer support and even called me to help me with my setup.
Good people from my experience-
Dave
-
DID you try swapping out the cables?? THis could easily be a bad connection or cable??? It is not always the drive(;-)
Just a thought, Before you BUST their chops, (;-)TP
-
Actually I checked the continuity of the pins on each cable and it was ok.
There are 3 ribbon cables connecting the 3 drives to BOB. I did not mark which one goes where but I doubt it that they all went to the same drive as before. Therefore I would say yes I swapped them
Nicolas
-
So did you ever check the wiring conections to the motors?
Just sounds like it's exactly what I had going on.
Dave
-
So did you ever check the wiring conections to the motors?
Just sounds like it's exactly what I had going on.
Dave
No I never checked the wiring to the motors.
Perhaps I'm wrong but the motors are working good, it is the direction of the axes that are not working and not the motors spin direction.
Nicolas
-
I meant YOUR wiring to the conections for the motors, not the motors themselves ;)
What type of connectors are you using?
Dave
-
I meant YOUR wiring to the conections for the motors, not the motors themselves ;)
What type of connectors are you using?
Dave
Still dont understand, you mean the wiring from the motors to the motor drives?
5 pin XLR connectors
Nicolas
-
If you unplugged the cables from a previously bad drive and plugged them into the good drive and that axis started behaving then it can only be a drive fault I would say.
Hood
-
If you unplugged the cables from a previously bad drive and plugged them into the good drive and that axis started behaving then it can only be a drive fault I would say.
Hood
I must agree with you Hood
Nicolas
-
NOT being a stickler but
There are 3 ribbon cables connecting the 3 drives to BOB. I did not mark which one goes where but I doubt it that they all went to the same drive as before. Therefore I would say yes I swapped them
TO me this says you don't know if you did or not(;-)
But that is just MY opinion, but precise test proceedures are critical sometimes and assuming well you know the rest.
Just a thought, (;-) TP
-
NOT being a stickler but
There are 3 ribbon cables connecting the 3 drives to BOB. I did not mark which one goes where but I doubt it that they all went to the same drive as before. Therefore I would say yes I swapped them
TO me this says you don't know if you did or not(;-)
But that is just MY opinion, but precise test proceedures are critical sometimes and assuming well you know the rest.
Just a thought, (;-) TP
I agree with you but as I said I did check the ribbon cables with a continuity meter and all was fine. To me this means all ribbon cables are good
Nicolas
-
If you unplugged the cables from a previously bad drive and plugged them into the good drive and that axis started behaving then it can only be a drive fault I would say.
Hood
I actually missed that little fact, sorry- I'll go back to my corner now-
Dave
-
If you unplugged the cables from a previously bad drive and plugged them into the good drive and that axis started behaving then it can only be a drive fault I would say.
Hood
I actually missed that little fact, sorry- I'll go back to my corner now-
Dave
You cant, I am there and unless you are a young good looking female then there is no way I am letting you sit on my knee :D
Hood
-
YES you checked the cont but you could not have checked IF the connector itself gave a bad connection( bad plug or bad socket).
I know it is nic picking BUT you are down to nic picking touble shooting at this point. YOU would feel foolish IF you sent the drives back and there was NOTHING wrong with them, YES ?
BEEN THERE, (;-) TP
-
YES you checked the cont but you could not have checked IF the connector itself gave a bad connection( bad plug or bad socket).
I know it is nic picking BUT you are down to nic picking touble shooting at this point. YOU would feel foolish IF you sent the drives back and there was NOTHING wrong with them, YES ?
BEEN THERE, (;-) TP
ok guys do you want to open a new can of worms for me now? LOL
Dave dont go back to your little corner yet. What you said is valid and appreciated
Of course I would not like to sent the drives back and find out that there is nothing wrong with them. But if the continuity check of the ribbon cables says they are good, what is the best way to verify that the plugs are also good?
Nicolas
-
If you simply unplugged the ribbon and motor cable from the axis drive that wasn't working right and then plugged them onto another drive and the axis started working then I would say you have proved the cables and plugs are fine. If you unplugged the ribbons from the BOB and kept them on their respective drives then there is a possibility that the ribbons could be bad.
Hood
-
If you simply unplugged the ribbon and motor cable from the axis drive that wasn't working right and then plugged them onto another drive and the axis started working then I would say you have proved the cables and plugs are fine. If you unplugged the ribbons from the BOB and kept them on their respective drives then there is a possibility that the ribbons could be bad.
Hood
I still have tomorrow Sunday to do the verifications as you described Hood but I was also expecting Probotix to ask me to do whatever they might want me to verify.
As you can see from the pic. It is not very easy to remove the heat sink due to space limitation and what I did I just simply switched the motor wires from a bad drive (X axis) to the good drive (the good drive in the pic is the one in the center and that is the Y axis). I was told never to run the drives without a heat sink and so the heat sink has to be always installed.
So now we want to verify that the ribbons and the ribbons plug in the BOB are good. Therefore tomorrow I will switch the good drive to each position at the right and left of the middle. This way I will verify that the BOB plug for the ribbon is good and at the same time I will use a different ribbon to assure that all ribbon cables are verified too.
Nicolas
-
Looks like you could take the longest cable and test all three drives from the center plug. Place the cable in the center plug and into each drive.
IF none of the drives work swap cables IF all the drives work then it is a cable problem IF one works and two don't then drives.
THEN if you have bad drives , sic um cowboy , (;-) TP
-
Looks like you could take the longest cable and test all three drives from the center plug. Place the cable in the center plug and into each drive.
IF none of the drives work swap cables IF all the drives work then it is a cable problem IF one works and two don't then drives.
THEN if you have bad drives , sic um cowboy , (;-) TP
I will assume that by saying "longest cable" you mean the ribbon cable. The ribbon cables are all the same length. In addition they are not long enough to go from X drive to Z plug in the BOB or Z drive to X plug in the BOB. But from the Y position (center) the ribbons can reach all plugs in BOB
As per picture above, the center plug & ribbon works. So I will remove this ribbon cable and drive and put them aside.
Now I will install the X & Z drives, one at a time, in the center position and test the other 2 ribbons in all 3 plugs in BOB.
Nicolas
-
Sounds like a plan (;-)
(;-) TP
-
I took each of the drives along with the ribbon cable shown in the pic and plug it to each of the 3 plugs in BOB. Each time I had to shut down / reboot the system to avoid possible "sparks". The results = no good, axes reverses unpredictably.
So I re installed the good drive and the ribbon cable shown in the other pic and test again. The results = EXCELLENT. No reversal, axis travels only according to arrow key pressed.
Now let see what Probotix will say tomorrow
Nicolas
-
As far as I know you can only expand it by moving the mouse to the left border of it then when you see the wee double arrow hold the mouse button and move left or right to resize.
Hood
Of course you are right Hood
I was looking at the wrong border.....now all is fine
Sorry about it
Nicolas
-
so you tested ALL 3 cables with the good drive and it was ok?
(;-) TP
-
so you tested ALL 3 cables with the good drive and it was ok?
(;-) TP
ok back to the drawing board lol
I will test the 3 cables with the good drive
Nicolas
-
The good drive along with each of the 3 ribbon cables was tested to each of the 3 plugs on BOB.
Everything worked good, axis travels according to key pressed, no reversal.
Guess ribbon cables and BOB plugs are ok, only the 2 other drives are defective.
Nicolas
-
Well one thing is for sure, no way Probotix can dispute your findings now ;D
Hood
-
YEP you got them now,
Good JOB, (;-) TP
-
But you guys almost drove me crazy LOL
Thank you
Nicolas
-
But you guys almost drove me crazy LOL
Thank you
Nicolas
That's why they're the best, my friend- ;)
Dave
-
ANY UPDATES??? (;-) TP
-
ANY UPDATES??? (;-) TP
Probotix asked to send them some pictures of my control box which I did. They said that it was very unusual to have a bad drive let alone three. They mailed 2 new drives last Monday which I should get early next week.
Regarding the 2 bad drives I have, they said it will be "nice" to send them back but I dont have to, I can just pitch them. I decided to send them back.
In the mean time I only have one good drive and gives me time to adjust my machine (I can switch cables and have all axes working one at a time) and learn more about mach3.
Nicolas
-
Well I got my new drives today, I was expecting them next week but I guess Probotix was too nice and sent them express post. Very nice of them.
Installed them and all is working beautiful now. I used a home made pen jig and made some squares on paper (see attached pics). Looks like that the machine is square.
Now the real fun will start to learn how to operate a CNC
Nicolas
-
Good for you, Nicolas, glad they came through for you. They're good people-
Dave
-
:)
-
ALL right we got you hooked now. Resistance is futile you HAVE been asymmilated
(;-) TP
-
ALL right we got you hooked now. Resistance is futile you HAVE been asymmilated
(;-) TP
Funny part is that as of last April I didn’t even know what CNC means………lol
I’m also a member of the routerforums.com and they have a small section for CNC which I never paid attention. One day I said, heck lets see what this is for. In one of the threads another member had an extensive post of how he built a CNC and that is when I really got hooked. I knew right away that I had to have one and the rest is history………..
Nicolas