Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach4 General Discussion => Topic started by: Rimmel on July 19, 2024, 08:40:59 AM
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Mach 4 4809 - ESS 285
I have a machine "Upgraded" from Mach3 to Mach4: Got a Rotary encoder setup ABZ. Working fine.
If I run this threading GCode (below) it will sometime run but others (random) it just sits on the G76 line and will not move any further.
Anyone have any idea why? Seems like it's not recognising the Index sometimes.
To be clear this code runs and cuts a great thread quite often, but then will just refuse. I can reset it and it will still not run and then all of a sudden it will run again.
How can I debug/investigate the error (Mach4 doesn't throw up and error)
G40 G54 G80 G98 G18 G21
G99 (Feed per Revolution)
G97 S450 (Constant Speed)
M03 (Spindle Forward)
M08 (Flood)
G00 X10.0
G00 Z5.0 (Rapid move to Clearance Height)
G4 P2.0
G76 P030060 Q0.001 R0.015 K3
G76 X9.02 Z-19.0 R0.0 P0.44 Q0.015 F0.75
G80 %
M5
M9
G98
M09
M05
M30 %
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It could be its waiting for the index signal.
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It could be its waiting for the index signal.
I agree, but it sometimes finds it, sometimes it doesn't. Theres no rhyme nor reason for it. I can't find out how to debug/fault find it.
I have asked on the Warp9TD forum, because apprently the ESS module controls the index, however support for ESS has basically ceased. With the main programmer not having posted for some 18 months.
I also asked if the ESS project was end of life and didn't really get a definite answer and must admit I did get a fix for a different problem.
I also contacted the very helpful Weerasak at CNCroom (who make the MB3 board) who suggested...
Your case, if you are using high ppr encoder such as 1024 ppr. The index might be small tiny pulse so, the system can't catch this pulse.
Have you tried to connect index signal to port3 of MB3. X310-X315. These inputs faster than others port.
My recommendation is make index signals big enough by choosing encoder low resolution 100-200 ppr and connect it to port3
However I am already using a very low 60ppr encoder on the super-fast Port3 (X310, X311, X312).
But even worse than this it happens also when using the Index (1ppr) signal only.
Very perplaexing as all the other stuff is working, but I cannot reliably thread anything.
One thing, when the threading does work, it works great!!! Real nice threads!!
But as you say it's like it's not picking up the index sometimes, but instead of retrying, it tries once, gives up and the program just sits there on the G76 line forever.
I can also reliably recreate the problem:
1) Call the threading Gcode 5 times, it runs fine.
2) Edit the G76 line e.g. change the thread depth or cut depth parameter
3) Run the Gcode again and it will hang on the G76 line 99% of the time
It's like it expects the index to at a certain point, but it's not... so it fails. Obviously I could be wrong, but with Warp9TD not prioviding any support now then I just cannot find out anything.
Surely other people have lathes running with threading? I was hoping they could have let me know the Encoder and settings they use.
thanks for the replies by the way - really appreciated.
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Do you have any de-bounce set on any of the index inputs? if so turn it off as that can be a problem.
Is the encoder cable running with the spindle power cable? If yes move it away.
A 60ppr encoder has 240 pulses if using A & B channel, is this set correctly in the ESS?
I am at a loss after this so I cant help any more.
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Do you have any de-bounce set on any of the index inputs? if so turn it off as that can be a problem.
Is the encoder cable running with the spindle power cable? If yes move it away.
A 60ppr encoder has 240 pulses if using A & B channel, is this set correctly in the ESS?
I am at a loss after this so I cant help any more.
The spindles Motor and VFD don't run anywhere near the encoder cable. (they are shielded and earthed as well)
Regarding the pulses, like I say I can use Index only and it's all over the place.
When using the A channel channel I set it for Prescaler 1 x Effective PPR 60 = Total Encoder Pulses 60
Where would I insert 240 pulses - also why is it 240 pulses? (I really don't know)
All values are setup in Mach4 correctly on ports and pins etc.
No debounce settings are used.
thanks again
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Most encoders are quadrature output so its 2 pulses on 2 channels A&B 90 degree apart so you have a high and a low for each pulse on both channels. Plus some have Z for the single index pulse. So a 256 PPR is 1024 actual pulses.
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Most encoders are quadrature output so its 2 pulses on 2 channels A&B 90 degree apart so you have a high and a low for each pulse on both channels. Plus some have Z for the single index pulse. So a 256 PPR is 1024 actual pulses.
I don't think they take that into account in mach4 - there nowhere to enter such settings. If I enter any more than the rated PPR then the RPM is massively over or under what it should be.
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Okay my bad, I don't use ESS I use CS-LABS and it has to have the quadrature value.
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Okay my bad, I don't use ESS I use CS-LABS and it has to have the quadrature value.
Have you got any info for CSlabs you use... I may have to switch over to soething else as it looks like Warp9TD ESS is end of life for Hobby version
thanks again
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Okay my bad, I don't use ESS I use CS-LABS and it has to have the quadrature value.
FIXED it!!! woohoo!
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What was the fix?
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What was the fix?
I removed the ESS+MB3 and installed a Pokeys57CNC, all working perfectly with the same hardware. First time, no messing around.
I had a couple of issues with the Pokeys57CNC, but that was just understanding their strange "Pins" configuration.
Polabs/pokeys have a ticket based support system though and are actively supporting their products, so the solutions were quick.
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:)
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What made the fixed? I just found your entry and while facing the same issue on the BUild 5036 and ESS 298.
Thx for sharing.
Frank
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What made the fixed? I just found your entry and while facing the same issue on the BUild 5036 and ESS 298.
Thx for sharing.
Frank
I removed the ESS+MB3 and installed a Pokeys57CNC, all working perfectly with the same hardware. First time, no messing around.
I had a couple of issues with the Pokeys57CNC, but that was just understanding their strange "Pins" configuration.
Polabs/pokeys have a ticket based support system though and are actively supporting their products, so the solutions were quick.
https://www.poscope.com/product/pokeys57cnc/ (https://www.poscope.com/product/pokeys57cnc/)
Although if I knew then what I know now I would have gone for the Pro version
https://www.poscope.com/product/pokeys57cncpro-4x25/ (https://www.poscope.com/product/pokeys57cncpro-4x25/)
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Thx, I got the pokeys running on my CNC Router. Still hope to find a solution for the ESS, don't want to throw it in the trash.
Anyway, thx for letting us know.
Cheers
Frank
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Thx, I got the pokeys running on my CNC Router. Still hope to find a solution for the ESS, don't want to throw it in the trash.
Anyway, thx for letting us know.
Cheers
Frank
I have one running on my Miller - it's good as it doesn't need threading.
I went and tried to get help on the Warp9TD forum but it was impossible. They admit the main developer has gone (he hasn't posted for 2 years) and they aren't really supporting the Hobby Version anymore. The don't officially even support the latest version of Mach4. Pokeys does.
As far as it goes it seems the ESS is end of life (not supported any longer).
So I wish you good luck, I have 2 ESS modules sat here as paper-weights.
cheers
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Thx,
As my index pulse comes from a servo spindle, I'm able to increase the length of the pulse, I will check, if this makes any difference.
I will just give it a try, if it's going any better.
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what did you find? :o
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for some reason the rest of the reply's didn't show when I requested what you found... thanks.. I'm going to order a pokeys and some additional h/w and do some testing... didn't know the ESS was not being supported. :o
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. didn't know the ESS was not being supported. :o
Thats the problem, you only find out AFTER you've bought it. They should put a notice up saying it's not supported any more.
Quite under-handed I feel.
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i've gotten some response from Warp9.. hard for all these firms to supply lots of support at these prices and possible quantities. Have you seen some of the posts? Most of the people have no clue how anything works.. so they ask a lot of really, really truly awful questions. Takes a lot of time to answer those if you needed too, or were trying too. And $200 wouldn't get you much support from anywhere else... even $1100 wouldn't go very far. I have a bunch of industrial s/w, and I pay for support. I'm amazed how poor it is often. Hard to find good engineers who know s/w and h/w and troubleshooting procedures, and will work for what they are willing to (or can) pay. Same would go here. Flip side is that there is often better documentation. ???
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what did you find? :o
I didn't had time to check it out, will do during the weekend and let you know.
Have a good one
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i've gotten some response from Warp9.. hard for all these firms to supply lots of support at these prices and possible quantities. Have you seen some of the posts? Most of the people have no clue how anything works.. so they ask a lot of really, really truly awful questions. Takes a lot of time to answer those if you needed too, or were trying too. And $200 wouldn't get you much support from anywhere else... even $1100 wouldn't go very far. I have a bunch of industrial s/w, and I pay for support. I'm amazed how poor it is often. Hard to find good engineers who know s/w and h/w and troubleshooting procedures, and will work for what they are willing to (or can) pay. Same would go here. Flip side is that there is often better documentation. ???
Pokeys manage it.
I am more concerned will the lack of transparency before purchase. If they aren't going to provide support then fine, but make sure people know before buying. I have an ESS for my Miller as previously stated and checked out the forum before buying a new one for the Lathe. I saw no statement that support was limited/ended because the main developer had gone. If I had I would have considered other options. Instead I wasted 2 months messing about. Then had to remove it and install a Pokeys. 3 months total for a week week job (including setting up the software etc)
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the main developer probably isn't a problem.. many people change jobs, locations, etc. It would be normal for any product that possibly the originator was no longer involved. And it could be he reached the end of his limits and couldn't or didn't want to continue. He could have been a contractor, and once he got the product to some state he went on to something else.
As I said, support is really a tough nut.. perhaps he never expected that he'd need to spend endless hours, days, months, answering questions like can I use 220v to power the unit.. or what's the difference between an open collector, NPN, PNP output.. or input.. or whats an input or an output? they sell this board for less than $100... he certainly didn't make $100 on each unit... how much time can he spend when people are sending him code and asking why it doesn't work.. he wasn't expecting to teach a programming class. Same for the engineers at Mach4... :-\
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What was the fix?
I removed the ESS+MB3 and installed a Pokeys57CNC, all working perfectly with the same hardware. First time, no messing around.
I had a couple of issues with the Pokeys57CNC, but that was just understanding their strange "Pins" configuration.
Polabs/pokeys have a ticket based support system though and are actively supporting their products, so the solutions were quick.
What port did you originally used on the MB3 board? Is it the one from CNC-technics?
I use Port 1 Pin 10, 11 and 12 for the A,B,Z Pulses. Its not configurable so it's PNP and should work fine with the Digital level coming out of a differential converter AM26LV33. I heard that preferable NPN should be used, I didn't checked it so far, as I used the configurable port2 as NPNs for my inductive limit switches on 24V. I probably give it a try tomorrow to increase the pulse with and also use an NPN port at least for the index pulse for synchronization with Threading.
Keep you posted.
Cheers
Frank
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What was the fix?
I removed the ESS+MB3 and installed a Pokeys57CNC, all working perfectly with the same hardware. First time, no messing around.
I had a couple of issues with the Pokeys57CNC, but that was just understanding their strange "Pins" configuration.
Polabs/pokeys have a ticket based support system though and are actively supporting their products, so the solutions were quick.
What port did you originally used on the MB3 board? Is it the one from CNC-technics?
I use Port 1 Pin 10, 11 and 12 for the A,B,Z Pulses. Its not configurable so it's PNP and should work fine with the Digital level coming out of a differential converter AM26LV33. I heard that preferable NPN should be used, I didn't checked it so far, as I used the configurable port2 as NPNs for my inductive limit switches on 24V. I probably give it a try tomorrow to increase the pulse with and also use an NPN port at least for the index pulse for synchronization with Threading.
Keep you posted.
Cheers
Frank
Port 3. X310, X311, X312, X313 (pins 10, 11, 12, 13) Should be used (as per manual) as these are "Superfast" ports. These can be used (set) as PNP or NPN
Page 6 of the manual.
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It's not mentioned in my manual for the BOB rev. 4.4, that any of the port got specific inputs capabilities. all are connected through a diode and a TLP293-4 Optocoupler. Some Pins are configurable as NPN and PNP depends on the Jumper, so Anode and Cathode (LED) of the TLP293 input needs to be connected either +VSS or Gnd, depends on the jumper settings on Port3. 10,11,12,13,15. Maybe you got a different BOB?
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MB3 is from cncroom
https://cncroom.com/en/product/mb3/
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OK that makes sense, I got it from CNC-Technics here:
https://shop.cnc-technics.de/public/6-Achs-Breakoutboard-Rev4.4-fuer-ESS-Smoothstepper/400224.1
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OK that makes sense, I got it from CNC-Technics here:
https://shop.cnc-technics.de/public/6-Achs-Breakoutboard-Rev4.4-fuer-ESS-Smoothstepper/400224.1
Ah sorry can't help you with that one.
What made you think the one you got was an MB3?
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It was a my wrong assumption, sorry for the confusion.
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It was a my wrong assumption, sorry for the confusion.
No worries at all - just sorry I can't help more.
The thing is - if you are having the same problem with a different breakout board, it does rather point to the ESS and the problem.