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Author Topic: Connecting spindle to breakout board  (Read 18326 times)

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Offline Roy

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Connecting spindle to breakout board
« on: October 26, 2008, 11:33:21 AM »
This is probably a bit cheeky asking this on here, but here goes!

I am converting my Denford Triac mill to Mach 3, so far i have the 3 axis under control, but as I am no electronics whizz i am a little confused by the spindle set up!

I am using a C11 cnc4pc breakout board which has the o-10v anolouge output i require.

I have 8 wires for spindle control, but don't know where to connect them on the 'bob'

As follows

1. Ref 0-10v
2. Spindle on
3. Spindle on Com
4. Spindle fwd
5. spindle com
6. spindle rev
7. ov
8. +12v

I think i am ok with 1, 7, and 8 as they seem pretty self evident. 1 to the 0-10v on bob, and 7 & 8 for the 12v supply required.

Hopefully someone here will have a similar board, and help me out.

Thanks, Roy
1986 Denford Triac Mill running on Mach 3 Via CNC4PC breakout board.
Re: Connecting spindle to breakout board
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 12:18:44 PM »
Roy,

    I assume you're using a VFD, but which one?  How it needs to be connected depends on the specific VFD, and how it's configured.

Regards,
Ray L.
Regards,
Ray L.

Offline Roy

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Re: Connecting spindle to breakout board
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 12:31:28 PM »
Sorry for my ignorance, but my understanding on this part of my conversion is a bit vauge!

It is a 3 phase motor which is contolled via a single phase 'brown & prestel' contoller/inverter.

Thanks Roy
1986 Denford Triac Mill running on Mach 3 Via CNC4PC breakout board.

melee

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Re: Connecting spindle to breakout board
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 01:08:14 PM »
Hi

I dont have this board but as a generic connection

1. Ref 0-10v                         > connected to signal generator which converts STEP pulses to voltage
2. Spindle on                        > to NO side of spindle enable relay
3. Spindle on Com                 > COM on spindle enable relay
4. Spindle fwd                      > NC side of spindle activation relay which is activated by DIR pulses from Mach
5. spindle com                      > COM on spindle activation relay
6. spindle rev                       > NO side of spindle activation relay which is activated by DIR pulses from Mach
7. ov                                    > common 0V for No 1 above
8. +12v                               > check if this is a 12V output, no reason why an inverter should require an input
                                              if so you could use it for the 12V supply you probably require for the signal generator

regards

Melee

Offline Roy

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Re: Connecting spindle to breakout board
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 03:06:23 PM »
Thanks Melee.

your answer helps me understand this a little  better now.

The 12v is an output, so as you say i can use this for the 12v signal.

The only thing which is still confusing me is the spindle on com and spindle dir com. On the breakout board the relays  have  5 terminals with 2 of them NO and 2 NC, 1 with v_in,

I can see from your explanation that i have to connect to the 2 NO terminals and one NC, but how do i connect my two 'com' wires to this? Do i connect them both to the v_in terminal?

Here is the diagram of the board http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C11R5WG.pdf  the relays are in the top right.

Thanks, Roy
1986 Denford Triac Mill running on Mach 3 Via CNC4PC breakout board.

melee

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Re: Connecting spindle to breakout board
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 05:16:43 AM »
Hi

I looked at the circuit board diagram, it certainly confuses matters by labeling one connection V In when most relays are labeled NO / COM / NC

What you need to appreciate is that none of these inverter wires (except perhaps the 12V) carry feeds to power anything, they are signal voltages, mostly 5V, which effectively activate a solid state relay and enable a particular circuit in the inverter.
The inverter probably has one common rail of 0V for all the Spindle Fwd, Spindle Rev and Spindle Enable signals, even if there are actually 2 or more Ground or Common wires, they all go to the same place.  (test meter or inverter manual will confirm)

The only exception would probably be the +10V signal which may well have its own 0V return to eliminate interference.

You could enable your spindle and put it into reverse or forward mode, simply by holding the appropriate wires together, all the relays do is enable this to be done on a signal from Mach

These relays are just electrically activated 2 way switches. 
 I would suspect that V In is the Common to both relays. 
You can soon confirm this with a test meter, you should have a circuit (using resistance or continuity) between V In and NC on both relays in its resting state. 
When you activate the appropriate signal via Mach and the relay activates and you have a circuit between V In and NO.

There is your answer.

Incidentally your breakout board looks to have 2 Ground circuits. 
One for the parport side of it and one for the speed board side. 
There is a warning not to inter connect them and the speed board section requires its own 12V supply. 
This is  because they should be opto isolated, with no physical connection between the computer and the stepper drives
or the spindle activating step and dir pulses and the output to the inverter.

To be ultra safe I would use a 12v PSU for your power, unless you can be completely sure that the supply from the inverter is clean and isolated properly from the 240V AC.

As I am not familiar with your inverter or board this answer is necessarily generic and comes with usual disclaimers, but I would be surprised if it was far off.

cheers

Melee
Re: Connecting spindle to breakout board
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 12:28:02 PM »
Hi

I dont have this board but as a generic connection

1. Ref 0-10v > connected to signal generator which converts STEP pulses to voltage
2. Spindle on > to NO side of spindle enable relay
3. Spindle on Com > COM on spindle enable relay
4. Spindle fwd > NC side of spindle activation relay which is activated by DIR pulses from Mach
5. spindle com > COM on spindle activation relay
6. spindle rev > NO side of spindle activation relay which is activated by DIR pulses from Mach
7. ov > common 0V for No 1 above
8. +12v > check if this is a 12V output, no reason why an inverter should require an input
 if so you could use it for the 12V supply you probably require for the signal generator

regards

Melee

The +12V and 0V connect to the +12V/GND connections of the analog spindle circuit on the CNC4PC board.  These must NOT be connected to the other supply and GND connections on the CNC4PC board!  The 0-10V connects to the 0-10V Analog output from the CNC4PC board.  It might be simpler to connect two relays for direction control, both NO.  Connect one to FWD and COM, the other to REV and COM. 

In Config->Ports & Pins->MotorOutputs, Configure pin 14 as the spindle motor output.  In Config->Ports & Pins->Spindle Setup, Check "Use Spindle Motor Output", Uncheck "Disable Spindle Relays", and select the appropriate control pins for the CW and CCW relays.  Then go into Motor Tuning and figure out what Steps/Unit, Max Speed and Step Pulsewidth give the result you want.

Regards,
Ray L.

Regards,
Ray L.
Regards,
Ray L.

Offline jimpinder

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Re: Connecting spindle to breakout board
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2008, 12:55:26 PM »
If you are connecting up seperate electrical systems - which you are, then you only need one reference point - 0volts.

Let us go through the Inputs to your inverter first.

The inverter will require 3 inputs. Forward signal, Reverse signal and a speed voltage signal. Looking at it , your Denford may require a spindle on signal as well.

Mach 3 puts out two signals for M3 and M4 - spindle forward and spindle reverse. There is no spindle on signal. This will have to be generated from the M3 and M4 signals that Mach 3 provides.

As you are probably aware, Mach 3 can be configured to put out these signals on any wire, but if the cnc4pc has a predetermined wiring plan then follow theirs. Connect your PC to the BOB board, and configure Ports and Pins/Spindle Setup.
Untick "disable spindle relays" and assign M3 and M4 to an output - say 1 and 2.
Then go to Ports and Pins and assign Outputs 1 and 2 to a pin number on your output. If this is done for you on the Bob then make sure they are allocated to the right pins.

On you Bob board, you can now check the M3 and M4 output by typing in the command on the MDI line and checking the pins outputs on your Bob board. See if they change from +5 to 0v, or 0v to +5 when they are set.(The problem is that some Bob boards invert the outputs) Check now what your Inverter input requires - does it require an 5v+ signal, or a 0v signal to drive it. IF the wrong signal is being output, then go to Ports and Pins, Output signals, and tick Active Low, and this should change the output. Check it again.

Once you have the right output for the M3 (forward) and M4 (reverse) signals, then to generate a Spindle "on" signal you connect a diode between the M3 and "Spindle on" and another diode between M4 and "spindle on" and this will provide the spindle on signal, whether M3 or M4 is active. The direction of the diode depends on whether a negative or a positive signal is required - but you can't do any harm by connecting it the wrong way, it just won't work.

The Ov connection on your Bob should be connected to the 0v on the Inverter - which I feel will be the spindle common or the spindle on common.

Inverters, unfortunately are fickle beings, and on some, the higher voltages are not necessarily tied to Ov earth potential.

Inverters normally provide a Ov and 12v supply, which goes to a converter - which in my case converts the PWM output from Mach 3 to a 0 to 10v signal - my board is a Digispeed.

The "high" voltage side of a Digispeed is electrocally isolated from the "low" voltage (computer) side, and so you connect the 0 and 12v supply to the "high" side of the Digispeed - and it returns a 0 - 10v signal back to the inverter to control the speed.

I would ring up cnc4pc and ask if this is what they have done - I think it may be- in which case you can connect the 12 volt supply from your inverter - and the associated 0v supply - to the appropriate Bob board input and you will get back from the Bob a 0 - 10v motor control voltage.

This is the best I think we can do on this forum - because every Bob board is different - but I seem to remeber that this was the case when I studied their circuit diagrams. I feel, however, that you must ask the supplier.

By all means come back if you are having any more difficulty.










Not me driving the engine - I'm better looking.

Offline Roy

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Re: Connecting spindle to breakout board
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2008, 03:52:11 PM »
Wow :o

Thanks for your comments guys, when I have read and digested it all properly, i will get back to you and let you know how i get on!
1986 Denford Triac Mill running on Mach 3 Via CNC4PC breakout board.

Offline Roy

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Re: Connecting spindle to breakout board
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2008, 07:26:06 PM »
Well after taking this advice. I felt brave enough to have a go at wiring it up tonight.  Thanks to the Jim's post i wired the 'spindle on' relay to just be M3, I just joined the spindle fwd, and spindle com wires together, since I don't think i am ever likely to need reverse on this machine. The 12v output and ground to the 12v inputs on the board and obviously the 0-10v to the 0-10 on the board. Sorted the pin assignments as advised.

And it works a treat ;D ;D

I just need to adjust the voltage pot to get the speeds correct.

Thanks very much to all who helped me on this.  I may be picking your brains for the home and o/t switches next ;)
1986 Denford Triac Mill running on Mach 3 Via CNC4PC breakout board.