Craig, I agree that pirates are indeed a problem especially for companies that mainly focus on software.

But let me ask who is impaired by the counter measures Mach4 implemented with the new PCID license restrictions? It's not the pirates as they use a cracked version anyway. They just continue to steal software, and they do not have to spend a single thought on PCID changes or license renewals. It's the honest and paying customers who are really impaired. People who use a cracked Mach 4 version can continue to use it even 20 years later, with no restrictions. They can change hardware however they like. However I as a paying customer have to cope with the restrictions and probably cannot use it 20 years later when the license renewal servers are discontinued or Mach5 is superseding Mach4.

What that means is that the honest customers are at a disadvantage compared to the dishonest customers. Making a cracked version more attractive to the customer than a legal version. I could imagine that now even more people change to a cracked version because of that.

Mach4 is the only software I am aware of that uses such license system. I have never encountered other software that required license renewals when changing hardware.

If we expect a 'professional level CNC software solution' then we must expect to contribute and abide the rules just as we would any other commercial
software vendor.

I agree but is the burden the customer has to carry now really a definite solution to piracy? I doubt so. Piracy is going to happen - no matter how many countermeasures are implemented. Other professional software vendors do not need such license system and others can continue to develop awesome features despite having a more customer-friendly license system. I mean there exist even open source software with awesome features that do not require license management at all (LinuxCNC, GRBL etc). I believe that there are better, more user-friendly anti-piracy measurements than the current license system.

However I just have the viewpoint of a semi-professional customer. It's not my business to decide how a company fights piracy. But after all it is my choice to use whatever software I like. I chose Mach 4 mainly because it is cheap and it was quick to get it working. I did not read much into the license system before my purchase. I already bought it so I continue to use Mach 4 for now. I mean i could live with the software bound to the PCID. But I was very dissappointed when I found out the PCID is changed by windows updates or by some simple settings in windows. Thus requiring me to tinker around with Mach 4 licenses and PCIDs. I am not sure that I would go along with Mach 4 in the future when retrofitting other machines. If I find other software that works as good/quick as Mach 4 I will most likely switch. My control manufacturer is even offering it's own CNC software. Maybe I will try that.

For Mach 4, I hope for at least more transparency of how the PCID is generated. That would at least remove some fear of it.

best regards

Brandon

It is an interesting thought that with Mach4 one might, somewhere in the future after several PC upgrades, be locked out, either because of so many upgrades or maybe because of an NFS server being discontinued. It would not be unreasonable for a bit of good CNC HW to last more than 20 years for instance.
I am well aware that quite a few other servers have been discontinued over the years, leaving the users helpless.

Oh well, I still have Mach3.

Cheers
Roger

Hi,

But let me ask who is impaired by the counter measures Mach4 implemented with the new PCID license restrictions?

PCID restrictions....really??? Have you used Mastercam or AutoCad latley? You want to talk restrictions then look to the CAD/CAM software market leaders.

Mach4 is the only software I am aware of that uses such license system. I have never encountered other software that required license renewals when changing hardware.

I am not familiar with any other software that is licensed in exactly this manner however NFS did not invent it. I will try to track down the reference to the name
of the system and who crafted it in the first place.

Craig

Hi,
the thread I recall is this from CNCZone:

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/mach-4-a/393202-mach-4-pcid-changed.html

And the thread indentifies the licensing system to be Enigma Protector:

https://enigmaprotector.com/

Craig

Hi,
the thread I recall is this from CNCZone:

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/mach-4-a/393202-mach-4-pcid-changed.html

And the thread indentifies the licensing system to be Enigma Protector:

https://enigmaprotector.com/

Craig

Interesting. Thanks for the link Craig. That really brought some light on the license system.

PCID restrictions....really??? Have you used Mastercam or AutoCad latley? You want to talk restrictions then look to the CAD/CAM software market leaders.

Yes but you should compare not with CAD/CAM software but rather with software that controls hardware. PLC Software and such.

I am not really against making it bound to the PCID. I am against the fact that the PCID can change so unexpectedly and that you have to use an online service to renew it. But after reading the link you provided i am a little more relaxed. It seems that the computer name is the only software thing that influences the PCID. But why is that nowhere documented on the Mach 4 Websites?

Best regards

Brandon

Hi,

Yes but you should compare not with CAD/CAM software but rather with software that controls hardware. PLC Software and such.

Why not?. Employees of a CNC software company need to be paid just as surely as employees of a CAD/CAM software
company. Further I would suggest to you that as Artsoft was founded in 2001 that NFS already has an 18 year history.
In previous posts the concern seemed to be that a piece of CNC hardware should last 20 years an therefore the company
that supports it MUST last 20years also. Well Artsoft/NFS is well on the way to establishing that. Companies take on a life of their
own and NFS will still be around in 20 years IF it remains profitable. As a customer of NFS I hope that they do remain profitable,
including my own modest contribution to that outcome, as their continued existence is to my advantage.

I am against the fact that the PCID can change so unexpectedly and that you have to use an online service to renew it.

This I understand, I rather doubt the NFS like the idea that a Windows update can cause the PCID to change either, but
the on-line service is great. How else would you have it done? Send a letter in the mail to have a flesh and blood
person generate your license and post it back?

With Mastercam you need an internet connection every time you boot the software, you can have it boot up without a
connection for a short period of time but by and large you need a connection.....just to boot the software. This is a program
that costs $20,000 and $2500 annually. At least with a stable PCID the Mach4 license is likewise stable and perpetual.
My machine PCID has not changed since the day I loaded Windows 7, over five years ago.

But why is that nowhere documented on the Mach 4 Websites?

Bryanna explains the situation:

https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=36585.msg250765#msg250765

You may have seen some of my posts where I am starting a new mill build. I have elected to use Delta 750W Series B2
AC servos. Just a plain servo, and I have two of those, not counting the more expensive braked servo, is $500USD.
I could buy 2¹₂ Mach4Hobby license for the price of just one servo. Lets put Mach4Hobby into
perpective........at $200 (perpetual)  its as cheap as chips. I pay more annually for carbide tools than a Mach4Hobby
license!!!

Craig

Bryanna explains the situation:
https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=36585.msg250765#msg250765


Now that is REALLY relevant. Thank you.
Seems to me the target of the licensing system is not the honest user but the Chinese pirates.

Cheers
Roger

Hi Roger,

Seems to me the target of the licensing system is not the honest user but the Chinese pirates.

Yes, that is 100% correct. That is exactly what inspired Brandon to say:

But let me ask who is impaired by the counter measures Mach4 implemented with the new PCID license restrictions? It's not the pirates as they use a cracked version anyway

It is the honest user whom has to jump through hoops to use software he/she has legitimately paid for because the
Chinese among others want to rip it off.

While I dislike intensely some of the licensing and validation techniques used by the big software manufacturers they are desperately
trying to protect their property......I understand it. NFS has not gone down that road....yet, but they could and maybe they will have
to if hackers keep cracking Mach. As much as I would dislike having on-line validation if that's what NFS HAS to do to stay in
business then so be it. Certainly if they are not in business I lose out too.

Craig

As much as I would dislike having on-line validation if that's what NFS HAS to do to stay in
business then so be it.
Would not work. Could not work.

Having the PC which controls the CNC online means that you would be subject to random crashes when Windows decides to download a large update. No, you can NOT turn off all the updates in W10, even if you try. It would simply send most users back to W7/Mach3 or off to LinuxCNC/UCCNC.

One possible solution to this problem is to embed a key throughout the SW: not just in one place. NEVER in just one place. So many 'License Managers' rely on a single key subroutine called from a few places, but that will fail when someone finds the critical 'return from subroutine' (RTS) instruction which returns a single True/False flag. You just patch that single line of code to always return True.

True story: someone managed to find this RTS instruction in the Digital Equipment (DEC) License Manager and mentioned it at a conference I was at. The DEC Licensing Manager was there, and he suggested that this was really counter-productive. He pointed out that if you want to play with, say, the DEC COBOL compiler (much $$), just ask and DEC would give you a temporary license for free. What the paid license really gave you was the telephone support, and for a commercial organisation it was the support which mattered.

So - embed a distributed license manager if you must, but providing updates and support to licensed customers is a better solution. Each customer gets a unique license number. That does not need an internet connection. Yeah, sure, it raises operating costs a bit - not as much as the increased sales revenue though.

Cheers
Roger

Hi Roger,

Would not work. Could not work.

There are many software packages that work exactly that way, Mastercam among them. If you really don't like
having online validation then buy a dongle, an extra $1500USD.

No, you can NOT turn off all the updates in W10, even if you try.

Windows 10 Pro and Windows 10 Enterprise can both have updates disabled.
Windows 7 Embedded and I imagine other Embedded Windows OS's allow not just disabling updates but not even load
the update code onto the PC. My machine PC has Windows 7 Embedded and it CAN'T update because there IS NO update
code for it to do so.

Whether Mach4 is being pirated at a rate which is harming NFS's ability to trade is beyond me. I would guess that
the NFS strategy has always been to sell to OEMs and Mach4Industrial, that's where the real money is. OEM's would
paint a target on their back if they tried peddling pirate Mach and are not likely to do so. A realistic and cost effective
licensing system for OEM's is the primary requirement and is in fact exactly what pertains now.

Hope Christmas finds you and family in good cheer. If I understand correctly you are in Australia? If so how are the
conditions (heat, fires) in your locale? I think the kindest gift that could be given to any Australian at this time is a good
rainfall!!

Craig