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Author Topic: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router  (Read 7842 times)

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Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2018, 09:33:19 PM »
Thanks for the update Doug, I am pleased that you finally have it sorted.

Your experience, in many ways, is not unique – Here in the EU we have CE certification, which adequately covers electrical safety but it only relates to the ‘point of sale’ and many unscrupulous dealers make the ‘point of sale’ China (or a country outside the EU) in order to circumvent the regulations.
Obviously it is ‘buyer beware’ but something that is often not considered is that if the buyer subsequently re-sells the product (even second user) within the EU then the seller is responsible for the all the CE regulations being met. As you can imagine the penalties for default are quite severe and if anyone is injured as a result of this then the penalties can be really severe indeed. (Perhaps interesting to note that the ‘point of sale’ for e-bay items is outside of the EU  :) ).

Tweakie.

Interesting re the resale obligations. Naturally, simple good ethics would prevent me from selling an unsafe item without, at the very least, pointing out any issues to the buyer. But it's great that the EU puts it to law.
This is the exact approach that Roger Webb took with his machines. He distanced himself from the sale by making himself the 'facilitator of the sale' and then saying that the rest was between me and the factory. Clearly this wasn't enough for our regulator and he was made to sort out the safety issue anyway. One possible reason that he didn't get away with it is because he told me very clearly in writing that he owned Pacific Tooling. This, it turned out, was not true and Energy Safe may have used this misrepresentation to force him to fix the issues.
Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2018, 10:04:15 PM »
Well, this good information as I was ready to order the P6012 or P6090 from Roger.  I wonder if Laguna's CNC is any better?
Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2018, 12:13:53 AM »
Oh well I am not alone !! Have imported machines from China for about 20 years and have scrapped most of them eventually. I have attended numerous trade shows and visited plants with a Local friend. Firstly before plugging in you MUST get an electrical engineer to check it. We have found machines live wired to earth when there is an earth and often there is no earth !! Regarding EU certification .. I have found at trade shows they have the Sign CU certified on most machines but it doesn't mean much in my opinion. They just seem to make the plate and stick it on. Maybe when it lands in Europe the customs check.. But not Australia.

I have been guaranteed and English manual. I have never found a good one yet. They just seem to get someone who supposedly understands English and translates. The manufacturer pays a minimum and you may get one or a disk or on complaining an email attachment.

We bought a PUR bookbinding machine from BOWAY/Fuller and followed the English manual. This was after buying an Italian one that was rubbish. Our Chinese machine has been wrecked again as the manual in English does not stress that it must be cleaned immediately after use. Nor does it say how to clean it out. We have decided to try and fix it after the Chinese Engineer was refused a short term visa twice.

That is another problem. Australia is not user friendly to overseas professionals. Whereas we can just visit pretty easily, they cannot. I even sent an invite and said I would pay all fares.
ATM we have a young guy who is Chinese who is going through problems via "WECHAT" and we seem to have found our blockage. But the Chinese Company does not seem to want to supply a new head. The Engineer is suddenly too busy to go on WeChat. Maybe he was looking forward to a trip. down under !!

In short. We reckon you are lucky if you get a 30% Ok if you import yourself.

I was once in Hefei after buying a machine at the laser expo in Shanghai. We just couldn't use it. There was a Turkish guy visiting the Factory also. He said he always bought 10 machines as they were about a 1/4 the price of similar German machines and expected problems accordingly and they were throw away in his opinion. However he had a big company engraving circuit boards for defence  so he probably had in-house engineers etc. I eventually trashed our machine. It did the job but the software was pirated and we could not understand most of it. In the end we bought a machine from a local agent  after I told a rep at a Birmingham Expo of my experiences. Turns out we were one of the first in the world to do what we did with their machine and even though it cost 10 times as much we have never had a breakdown in 6 years.

Of course the local Melbourne rep visited out competitor and then sold him the same machine and software ( probably cheaper) and we have lost our advantage obtained by all that research time and expense !! Still we paid for our machine in 6 months even at the higher price. And were at least 3 years ahead of them for ages.
Now we are behind !!
We thought of another quite innovative idea in manufacturing over about 10 years, and stupidly posted a video doing it and using the machine we sourced after wasting 250 grand on our initial machine which we scrapped. Then a machine came on the market that would do what we wanted, and we made some nice items . When we decided to go to a workshop after a couple of years, held by the local agents, our Competitor was there as he had just bought the same machine and wanted to learn how to use it.

Another thing is Australia's wharf clearance rates are killing. It will cost more to get your machine off the wharf than to bring it all the way from the Factory in China. Imagine what the Tasmanians go through. It. costs them a heap to just get it across Bass Strait and their Government owns the shipping line !! No attitude to help business with fees here like there is in China !! Business is regarded as a Gold mine to be dug to the max by our Govt Bureaucracy and unions. ( We wrote to a "Specialist"  officer in Immigration re our need for a Chinese Engineer, and he took an apologetic month to reply !!) Hence our machine stood in the Factory slowly setting. Seems Treasury Wine can get action when their wine is on the wharf but not small business !!
So in the short of it... Import machinery,  from China especially, at your own risk. Or at a minimum get on a plane and see it working in an Industrial Environment somewhere. If the supplier resists your request. Walk away !!
I went to Korea recently to check a machine which was made to order and even then there was virtually no English.

And although I like the idea of sharing knowledge, be careful of Sales Reps and bragging on the internet, if you think of an innovative idea
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 12:32:50 AM by steadyeddie »
Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2018, 12:18:54 AM »
Further to my previous post. If you re-sell your Chinese machine , you are probably liable if it kills someone !!
Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2018, 01:12:44 AM »
Hi,
I'm Kiwi and we have a free trade agreement with China. I know Australia does also but whether the agreement is identical
or similar is more than I can say.

There is a marking on a lot of Chinese made equipment 'CCC', and it is for the purposes of electrical regulations in NZ sufficient
to rely on the manufacturer complying with domestic Chinese regulations.

I work for a electrical company that service and sell welding equipment. I'm in the service side and see a lot of Chinese made welders.
To be fair most of them are pretty reasonable with respect to wiring and earthing. There are some glaring exceptions as well.
It seems that the Chinese are not particularly careful about following their own regulations let alone any others. While some manufacturers
do follow some sort of rules others just plain lie and fraudulently apply standards markings to which they are not entitled.
We have had occasion to refuse to even touch a piece of equipment even if it has standards markings, dangerous is dangerous and we
want nothing to do with that sort of stuff.

The gold standard in both New Zealand and Australia is the European CE standard. It will cost a local manufacturer many thousands of dollars
to have a piece of equipment inspected by a certifying laboratory. Assuming they are happy with it you will be issued a certificate of compliance
and PROVIDED you follow EXACTLY the same design you may produce those units an label them as CE compliant. If you change anything
about the design you are supposed to have it recertified, at great expense.

It is not suprising therefore that manufacturers whom have spent tens of thousands, and even hundreds of thousands certifying and re-certifying
their products over the production lifecycle protect that status vigorously and charge their customers for that privilege.

The machines which are subject of this thread are very much larger and more expensive than the norm for hobby machines made in China and
much talked about on the forum. I get the general sense that Chinese made machines are mechanically pretty fair but the electronics and software
is anywhere between rubbish and pirated.

I have asked 'if you threw away the electrics/electronics and software of your intended Chinese made purchase would the price still be compelling
for the mechanical components and assemblies left?' Apparently many think so but when it turns up they don't throw the junky stuff away and then
complain when is doesn't work as advertised.

There is a great deal of criticism leveled at Chinese manufacturers who make shonky stuff but what about those people who buy it?

Craig
My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!
Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2018, 03:53:28 AM »
Trouble is some of their machines are quite innovative and there are no identical machinery in the west. For example, Chinese have been making all sorts of boxes for years because one of the festivals requires a boxed gift as a mater of respect. Like our Christmas. So the box makers are tied up for a good part of the year just making fancy packaging.
I do not think its fair to throw criticism to buyers. After all China is the workshop that has increased the living standards of the modern world. I have been to NZ, and there is hardly any industry let alone here in Australia. Yet the people have a reasonably high living standard and lifestyle/ The Chinese are really in a way modern slaves like in Ancient Rome which was very rich.
 Once Australia made everything. People streamed out of factories at 4pm. BUT cars were basic, TVS cost thousands. Houses never had carpets. Heating was basic. Restaurants were for the rich.
No we have. a lot to thank China for despite our criticisms




Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2018, 04:33:58 AM »
Hi,
you raise some very interesting ideas.

Quote
I do not think its fair to throw criticism to buyers

We know that the Chinese will often cut corners to make a sale and yet we still buy it!
No one likes the thought that we are being duped....but we are.....and given the anecdotal evidence that we have at our disposal
we are willingly and wantonly ignoring that evidence and claiming 'we've been ripped off' and ignoring the reality 'we are being stupid'.

You quite rightly point out that the Chinese, like people everywhere, are just trying to secure better lives for themselves. And like
people everywhere only a small portion will indulge in deceitful business practices.

When I was a youngster through the 60s until the 80s Japan was a rampantly growing economy and we had a name for products they made 'Jap Crap',
and it was. Over a matter of a very few years Japan became a by-word for manufacturing excellence. I suspect China will do the same but at this time
Western customers are buying their rubbish. Where is the incentive to change while they can find willing customers for their existing
products?

Craig
My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!
Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2018, 04:44:38 AM »
I don't think its all crap/ Apple and other phones are made there for example. Their space research is pretty impressive and I think they probably have spying technology to match the USA. I was so impressed when I visited Shanghai over the years to see the bullet trains and the underground which grew at an enormous rate. Australia doesn't have any high speed trains and when I was last in NZ they didn't even have trains in Auckland ( I believe they have a line now) You go to the airport in Shanghai and the train arrives reliably and quickly and all underground for KM after Km... yet 5 years back it was not there.  Thailand is similar but isn't so aggressive in seeking to be the best. I agree China will be the trend and standard setter in the future. Lee Kuan Yew and Mahathir Bin Mohamad both used to refer to Australia as the poor white trash of Asia at times. I think they were just a bit ahead of their times !! All of my Asian employees are amongst my best
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 04:54:31 AM by steadyeddie »
Re: Importing A Chinese Machine......Roger Webb/Pacific Tooling - CNC Router
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2018, 05:09:01 AM »
Hi,
you are right, there are many things that the Chinese do exceptionally well.

The one that comes to mind is solar panels. One Chinese company makes over 80% of the world market and nobody can
get within a bulls roar of matching them.

As you say they make a great job of cell phones and all sorts of other stuff IF its being made under licence.....its just their copy
stuff which is junk.

Interesting you should mention trains. The New Zealand rail outfit bought a whole bunch of Chinese locomotives and had a nightmare run
ever since. Those Kiwis are dumb bastards! Wasting all that money just to buy rubbish! Brakes that fail....wheel bearings that collapse....full
of asbestos lagging...the list goes on. I'd quite happily jail the Chinese who sold them but I'd execute the dumb Kiwi bastards who bought them!

Craig
My wife left with my best friend...
     and I miss him!