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Offline ger21

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Re: ScreenSet Question
« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2014, 08:07:45 AM »
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GUYS all this IS great, it really is BUT that idea of having a CNC controller is for the CONTROLLER  to provide ALL the normal CNC machine functions without having to learn a new high order programming language and create the needed functions.

This is one of the failings of Linux/EMC . Most new generation or Jobshop operators need/want to cut parts NOT work on the machine all the time trying to get it to work correctly without a programming degree.

I think the main issue here (at least I hope it is) is that the version of Mach4 that we're seeing are still quite a long way away from being a finished product. When it's released for sale, everything needs to work properly, including default hotkeys. If everything's not working, Mach4 will be a failure. I think we all expected Mach4 to be much further along than it appears to be, but it is what it is. All we can do is wait at this point.

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My thought was to have MACH4 come out with a good 4 axis workable screen set AND have the screen editor as an optional program for those that choose/need to do it.  That lowers the  cost of MACH4 for the hobby side and creates a second tier profit center for the Screen editor as an option.

This is a tricky area. Because Mach is such a universal control, used on many different types of machines, a single "good" screenset is a bit of a compromise. You also have to consider that a huge plus for Mach3 has always been the ability to customize screens. Taking that option away, or charging more for it, would be a step backwards for Mach4, and is not really an option, imo.


I think you need to realize that you're not seeing the finished product, which needs to be much better than it's current state. People need to be able to use it out of the box, as is.
Mach4 is definitely going to be much more difficult to customize (especially with no manuals as Brian has hinted at :( ), but that's a byproduct of the increased flexibility and power. If you don't like, it, you can always use one of those other controls that don't let you customize it. Not everyone is going to like everything about Mach4. There are certainly things that I don't like. But at the end of the day, it'll hopefully still be the best option formost of us. If not, we'll move on to something else.

Gerry

2010 Screenset
http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

JointCAM Dovetail and Box Joint software
http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

Offline RICH

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Re: ScreenSet Question
« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2014, 09:17:58 AM »
I have to say that what the team created for the screen deisgner thus far is darn good and when some of the future stuff Steve mentioned is implemented it will be excellent. If this ning-com-poop can create a screen  "picture" anybody can. All that was available was the you tube video on Mach4 at the time.

There will be a screen design manual of some sort.

Scripting is a different matter and a good "picture" is useless if it doesn't function.
I will leave that part to others for now. After some period of time enough examples should be available to help make one dangerous for
some small / basic stuff. Quessing that  96.5% of the users will never even do any Lua. Your guess may be different. ;)

What's the best screen that can be provided for Mach4?
Who knows........it will come about over time.
FWIW, when thinking about the lathe screen, approx 30+ manauls where scanned to see what was out there and what could
or should be shown on the screen. Content becomes totaly subjective.

RICH

Re: ScreenSet Question
« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2014, 11:48:10 AM »
I am shocked that you could call Mach4 not close to finished.. The issue with the Hotkeys is nothing more then us setting up the plugin and calling it a standard. Screen design I think will be used but more to remove and change the location of items on the screens. The real goal is to make the people that can program have all the tools they need to make the screens they want to.. And at the same time add features that we don't have time to do. Mach4 is NOT out for release for a reason.. but I think it is 98% ready as far as features for Mill and Routers.  What would make if "finished" more? a manual? that is not the core software.. Hotkeys? That is the KB plugin and a few signal scripts. It can run parts and you can customize it more then Mach3 every could have been.. I would call that one hell of a big step in the right direction.

I have no idea what the expectations are but if I lived to be 300 years old and worked on it every day people still would not be happy. Please don't say "it is not done" tell us what you think it needs to feel more complete! We are asking for your input! this is your chance...


Thanks
Brian


Fixing problems one post at a time ;)

www.newfangledsolutions.com
www.machsupport.com

Offline ger21

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Re: ScreenSet Question
« Reply #73 on: May 14, 2014, 12:01:40 PM »
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I am shocked that you could call Mach4 not close to finished..

Until we see versions that can run machines, we really have no way of knowing how close it is? I said the versions we're seeing.

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What would make it "finished" more?

See above  ;)

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Hotkeys? That is the KB plugin and a few signal scripts.

As Rich said, 96.5% of your users will not be able to do that.

I personally won't have a need for Mach4 for another year, so I'm in no hurry right now. But a lot of people are probably quite frustrated with the time it's taken. I know you are as well.
The one thing that's really important imo is a good customization manual. Without it, most people won't be able to utilize all the new power you're giving them. I don't want it to end up like Mach3's Flash screens. Extremely powerful, but almost nobody knew how to create them.
Gerry

2010 Screenset
http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

JointCAM Dovetail and Box Joint software
http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html
Re: ScreenSet Question
« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2014, 12:09:58 PM »
I'm running a 5' x 10' router with Mach4 and ESS now

and working on a new setup now with Art's Darwin pp
I did do a bench test and did get working one nema 23 stepper to prove Darwin worked as advertised.
So they are very close.
Start saving bottles, almost time to turn them in.

Offline BR549

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Re: ScreenSet Question
« Reply #75 on: May 14, 2014, 12:10:16 PM »
HIYA Brian I do not think anyone here has a problem with telling you want they need/want (;-). And at this point everyone understands where Mach4 is and how much more it needs to be JUST to catch up with the other available controllers in this class AND M3.

Other controllers do not have a Screenset designer BUT they do have a DXF importer,  they do have FAST advanced 3 d probing, they do have toolpath transformation to correct for surface imperfections, conversational programming,  and much more.

AND YES it takes time, NOT a problem take as LONG as you need to make it competetive out of the box.  

I was asked to step back into the Mach world to test mach4 from MY perspective same as I did for Mach3. Mach4 has potential IF it is finished off to normal CNC standards of operation so that it appears NORMAL to them. THE Gcode side is nice now BUT there are many others than have a nice Gcode side as well.

IF you provide all the normal CNC functions up front AND with a good Gcode side I do not see the NEED to wonder off in the desert(WX.LUA) just to be able to get something working right. It will already been taken care of.


I know yous guys have work VERY HARD to get to this point. Take a breath and get back to finishing it up.  At this point take your time and look around to what everyone else is offering.  Get to take level at least.  YOu don't have to build a new LEXUS to begin with BUT you also do not want to build a Model T and HOPE it evolves into a Cadillac over time.That model worked well for MACH3 but will not for MAch4. There is far too many OTHER controllers that will fill the void.

(;-) TP





Re: ScreenSet Question
« Reply #76 on: May 14, 2014, 12:29:24 PM »
So this really is all down to manuals.. I think you can see by the Gcode manual and the install manual that we are going to put in the time on the manuals :) . The manual will be done as soon as we have this version locked down. So I don't see it taking us that long to get it "finished"

Thanks
Brian
Fixing problems one post at a time ;)

www.newfangledsolutions.com
www.machsupport.com
Re: ScreenSet Question
« Reply #77 on: May 14, 2014, 12:33:51 PM »
Terry hang on to your butt.. this is only the start. This is the beginning of the project. Mach3 got more features as time went on, Mach4 is designed to grow and the sky is the limit.
Fixing problems one post at a time ;)

www.newfangledsolutions.com
www.machsupport.com

Offline ger21

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Re: ScreenSet Question
« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2014, 12:42:24 PM »
I wasn't out to attack Mach4 in any way. And I'd rather see Mach4 finished and bug free before any manuals.

Don't let customers or potential customers change your course of action. Just do waht you think is needed to get it done.

But like Terry says, make sure everything needed for a beginner to run Mach4 out of the gate is ready, or it will be a support disaster for you.
Gerry

2010 Screenset
http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

JointCAM Dovetail and Box Joint software
http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html
Re: ScreenSet Question
« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2014, 12:56:56 PM »
I agree... we are all on the same page
Fixing problems one post at a time ;)

www.newfangledsolutions.com
www.machsupport.com