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Messages - ART

1551
Hi Dave:

   I have heard great things about tables from Concrete. (As long as you never have to move it. :)
It woudl be handy to have two heads.. or some tool change mechanism, Ill have to give that some thought as
well..

Art

1552
Hi Dave:

  Good point. Someone else mentioned that to me. The position of X and Y are a bit arbitray and depend on the way you look at things. But unlike a mill,
I consider the short axis to be X for a reason. Consider a photograph you wish to engrave on a door. The door's long axis, woudl lay on the long axis on the table, the X woudl be the short 4' side.  Consider the X on a photograph or drawing, (the bottom of the photo.right? ), and you wish to engrave this on the door, well, if you dont want to rotate the photo's X,Y, then youd consider the router tabe's X to be the short axis. As to which side of the router you face when using it, many of us face the short 4' side. Not the long 8' side. This makes the 4' side the X in our case and really helps when putting any designs on a door as the X is the side to side axis of the door.

  Its the reverse on a mill , where the long axis is the X. All a matter of perspective, but since when doing wood work, you typically lay the X on the short side of the router table, it save alot of headaches to simple consider the short side to be the x. But as in all things, people differ, but when using a wood routing table, you save a lot of headaches if you consider the 4' side of a 4x8 table to be the X, not they Y.. (My opinion only..but thats pretty typical. :) )

Art

1553
Hi Chad:
 No, feel free to post. In the end we will probably reorganise it all to some logical oreder, but kick in at will..

Art

1554
Hi all.. continuing on with this very rambling topic..

 Today we discussed motors. We're going servo as I said earlier, but the question comes up , how to connect the..ballscrews.. belts..ect..

 The idea is to have as low a mass as possible to move, but with the rigidity required to get a good cut. Ive seen many designs, and we're not
close yet to deciding. Brian mentioned an interesting design where a timing belt is flipped inside out on a pulley and the pulley runs on a track with
a series of tapered slots on it. This woudl kill backlash problems as the rubber of the belt compresses into the track slots.. interesting.. might have to try something
like that. Ball screws are great and tight, but they do have a rotational inertia and that adds some acceleration time to the movement. Hi acceleration is the
ultimate target. Like all things in life, tradeoff's abound in the design of a router table. The stiffer the heavier, but the lighter the higher the acceleration,
the trick woudl appear to be getting just the right balance. Since we'll be using Servos that at fast speed are about 3000RPM, the perfect design is about 3000
rpm ratioed to give the highest speed we would want at the drive.  The required acceleration then would simply be a function of the mass of the gantry. Y on the router tabel is
the long axis, so it will push the whoel gantry, its the worst one, the X is usually a cakewalk as it has less than 1/2 of the mass of the Y, and the Z is in a class of its own
 as it has to lift or drop the weight of a carriage. Even with counterweighting, there is the mass to consider on that one. (Just because somethign weighs nothing, doesnt mean
you dont have to take its mass into consideration.. )

  Id like about 12,700mm's per minute. Or about 500 inches per minute as my rapid. It may be overreaching, but we'll crunch some numbers and see. That means on a 4" pulley, Id need about
2*3.14*2 or about 1 foot per rotation on a 4" pulley with  reversed belt, so an end speed of about 500/12 = 41rpm , so a reduction of about 75:1 woudl seem great under that scheme.
Gonna have to look around to see what I can find and make a compromise I suspect. More thought required. Just thought Id mention all this so you get an idea of what to consider in
some of the planning of driving the gantry about to get a better result.  Ill keep you informed on the progress...

Art




   

1555
General Mach Discussion / Re: Softlimits
« on: October 11, 2006, 06:41:50 PM »
Thanks Chris:

  I have that on my lst.. Shoudl be fixed very shorty.. like for tomorrow..

1556
Motors---

   Well, motors and drivers are something that are frequently asked about. Allot of people have tried to go too small on a system,
and surprisingly, allot of them try to go too big. Yes, you can go too large. At least in steppers. You can make errors here, a stepper
can be switched to a servo at any time with a new driver and a bit of rewiring, or a smaller stepper can be swapped for a larger one if your
power supply will handle it. Lets talk steppers first. Theres allot to be said for Servos, I like them myself, but many getting into CNC will
be using steppers.

   Steppers come rated at a voltage and current. Its typical to see 4.5Volts at 1Amp and such written on the motors faceplate. The rule is:
NEVER go over the rated current, if it calls for 1 amp, don't go over that 1 amp, it will overheat the motor. But voltage is a different matter. You can go
up to 25 times the voltage on a motor. Typically, most steppers like about 48Volts or so. Ive used from 24Volts to 65 volts quite successfully. The
Higher the voltage, the more power you ll have and the higher acceleration you'll be able to get. (Remember..acceleration is good.. :) )

   I used AC steppers rewired to DC for my first table. Big Honking 72RPM steppers. They used to be easy to get and a simple rewiring of the
coils in the back made them work fine. In fact, their still in use. But you'll want to use normal steppers, 4 wire, 8 wire..doesn't matter really. I
wont get into all the arguments on Bi-Polar ..etc.. Usually most will use what they have. Nema 32 are pretty good for a router table, if the gantry
is heavy you'll want about a 4 amp motor running at 48 volts at least. Don't be too tempted to get Nema42's with 1200oz inch power, as steppers
get larger, the detent torque (that clicking you feel as you turn a stepper) increases, and it can be a devil to tune them or get great acceleration.
I recommend (just me..) that you don't go higher than 800oz in for a stepper. If you need more, think about servo's.

  Servos' are great. Harder to hook up, but they work very well, and once you've used them, your unlikely to go back. Out table will be using Technique
SST-1500 servos for the X and Y. Still not sure for the Z yet. But we'll probably use a servo there as well. (Though a stepper is tempting on the Z as its easier..).

  For either stepper or Servo, I usually use a Gecko stepper (201) or Servo( G320) driver. Ive had very good experiences with Gecko drivers, great support,
and they work very well. But I happen to have some SST's here, so we'll use them. Ebay is great for getting motors , you can often get a servo and matching driver
at a fraction of the cost of a new one. They can all be the same or different, doesn't matter as long as they do the job. If you ask around, people will tell you
how much power you may need, Ive never had Anything that a 200watt servo wouldn't drive. But with servo's , you can go as large as you can handle.

   Steppers, (or servos) are pretty easy to hook up. If using Servos, make sure the driver is a step/direction interface. Otherwise, you'll need a step/dir converter to make
the step/dir signal from Mach3 an analogue output for the driver. Your power supply should have enough oomph for the motor. If you have 3 steppers at 4 amps, you
don't need a 12 amp supply. (many just add them up, but it doesn't work that way..), you'll need about 60% to be safe, so 8Amps at speced voltage would drive 3
4 amp steppers. For servos you'll need lots of power. They can draw 20-30 amps when they need to kick in current, so check with the driver maker as to specs of that.
The servos Ill be using come with a power supply, so we wont have to worry about that one.  We'll go into tuning when the motors are all attached, and Ill show you
 what trouble we hit. Servos can be a real pain to tune in depending on the system, some are easy, some are hard. Persevere, in the end it'll work great usually.

    The only other thing you need to get movement is a breakout board. Check the web links on the artofcnc website. Many makers there and their all pretty good. A
breakout boards job is to give you a wiring platform AND to isolate signals, and condition them from your computer. IF your computer is 3.5 volts only on its printer port
(use a meter and measure a few pins from pin 25 , if you see 5 volts on any, you have a 5 volt motherboard, if you see 3.5 volts on one, then you have a 3.5 volt port.)
then you need a breakout board that will accept 3.5 volts and condition it to 5. Many are available. You CAN just cut off a printer cable and wire it direct, but I don't recommend it,
you'll be confused enough at times, the breakout board really helps calm the confusion and is easier to wire up, it also allows for future additions, so trust me, don't cheap out here,
their only about 125.00 or so typically, and well worth it..

 More on motors and breakout boards soon, specially as we begin to hook them up. Ive asked Bob to take pictures of the old table as examples so Ill post them soon, and as we go, we can draw
comparisons between old and new to show various differences between a Servo and a Stepper operated table. As well as wiring and performance.. In the end, we'll have 2 tables that can cut our
jobs and you'll have seen our mistakes. (allot of them to show you. :) ), hopefully we'll all learn something..

  Bobs great at the mechanical work, I'm more the theory guy and the software guy these days. But I wont code anything special for this table, Ill show you how it works out of the box, and
we'll solve any troubles we get along the way showing you everything we hit, in hopes you'll be better prepared for what you may hit..

to be continued...
Art


 
   

1557
Ok, so Bobs decided he really wants a metal table. (I suspect he just doesnt want to screw with the wooden one, it does work pretty well.) So Ill gather photos
of the older wooden table so you can see how that one worked out, and some of the new planned metal table as its built. We'll try to post at least once a week
 till the project is done, and likely several times a week when we get wiring and such.

  We will post photos of the process along the way so you can see what youd be up against. So I guess this tabel will be pretty much new from the ground up.. it'll
be interesting to see just how we make out..

Art....& Bob..

1558
Table - Continued..

   Well, Size is something to be considered. Not alot to say on it other than it must be large enough to hold what you need held.
Dont forget to consider though how to connect your gantry to the table. Some youll see overhang the table anf literally hang from
bearings under or on the side of the table. Those are nice, keeps the material away for the bearings. I didnt do that , of course,
I went for the more obvious method of bolting the bearings to the table and having the gantry ride on top of them. Works well,
and I dont really regret the decision, but it is somethign to consider.

Plan the size to hold the gantry. Personally, I think making the gantryand then making a table to fit it is the easier way to go. Our gantry was a 3/4 aluminum
side wall with an Aluminum beam riding between them.  The sides were gussetted for strength, and had flat bottoms put on that would just sit on the bearing
carriages when done. That part worked very well, we may even keep it that way.  Still hasnt been decided to start again from scratch or resuse the old table,
but I lean toward reuse.

   That made a very tight gantry and the X axis was a dream, the Y axis was tougher. We quickly found that keeping it square was difficult. Luckily, we had lots of linear rails
hanging about, so we just doubled them up, so with two sets of rails on each side, everyhting became much more rigid.  We bolted a 1/4 steel plate about a foot wide on each
side of the table to hold all this, and that too worked pretty good. Its easy to level a steel plate bolted to a wooden top, and the thing IS quiet when moving. Originally we
put rack and pinion on the Y axis, but found it noisy and abit too slow to accelerate. A belt drive fixed that, and we found the belt tended to dampen vibration to the extent
that higher acceleration was available without having a resonance problem. (Resonance will lose you steps if the coupling between motor and carriage is too tight.. and belts flex enough
to greatly aid in that. ).

   We used about 16" centers on the wooden joists, and it has incredible strength. The total cost for the table was about 200.00-300.00 I think with an extra 50.00 for the steel plates.
We have found it very nice to work with... Id match its performance to a steel table any day, and I suspect no difference would be seen. So if your building a table for yourself, I do suggest
a wooden one. Might defy convention, but hey, its relatively cheap, works well, and youll have lots of other places to put your money.. might as well spend high when needed , and keep it low otherwise..

More later, I need to get some photos of this tabel Im describing so you can see what I mean on construction..

Art

1559
The Table.. continued..

  OK, so I haven't badgered Bob yet to keep the old faithfuls wooden table, but Ill go on the
assumption he's willing to go along with that. Most of this little followup will pertain to either
a wooden or a metal table. I cant really say this is the best , or the worst way to go, Ill leave that to you
to decide. Of course, you may have decided to purchase one outright. SO before we discuss building a table,
lets talk a bit about buying one.
  It disturbs me when I get support letters from people who have purchased a system and feel let down. While
I'm in no way responsible for that, I'm empathetic enough that I truly feel bad for them, typically it can be
allot of money, or even if not allot, it can be all they had for their new hobby or business. And I hear it all.

  From the people that send a check for $25,000.00 for a system which never arrived, and will likely never arrive, to those that spend $5000.00
on a system that performs very badly, I ve seen many bad purchases.  I don't judge others systems, unless I'm buying them, and Id ask you not to send me ad's asking me
if I agree or disagree with the design of someones system they are selling, I CAN tell you what I look for, (and again, what the hell do I know?)..

  When I look at a possible purchase of a table, and Ive considered and drooled over a few, I look at several thing. How well is it build, and weight tells you something there.
Not everything, but weight is a good guide. Its typically heavy to build strong. Does it have bearings on the table where the gantry hooks up to the table? How good are they?
 Linear bearing, like Thompson linear rails cannot be beat. Two pipes with roller bearing on them is probably not what you'd want. The thing here is the gantry you WANT doesn't
easily swivel out of square. Some have two motors to keep it square, others just rely on the bearing to do it. Having two pipes with roller bearings are unlikely to do that.
Linear bearings have car's, or carriages that do not easily swivel out of position, they stay parallel to the rails they are on, that means stability and less vibration.
  This is an important thing to look for, there are three weak links in any table, the connection from table to gantry( Y axis) , the gantry's side to side carriage (X axis),
and the Z axis which resides on the X axis carriage. They should be pretty beefy. The best Ive used or seen is either a single beam being the X axis or a dual beam one on top of the other.
  Having a beam in front of a beam with a router carriage mounted between the two beams should be avoided. Not that it cant be done properly, but it interferes with tool changing
and can be a bit of a pain. Again, Ill post photos soon of what I mean , showing what we've done on ours, (trying to keep expenses down), and we've been very happy with it over time.
  Dive systems on a purchase table are important as well. The ultimate of course is good Ball screws. Take not a Ball screw is not just a screw. Ball screws can be recognised typically
by a barrel looking nut with tubes on it. The tubes allow ball bearing to race around the screw very tightly allowing no backlash and very tight coupling. Thats the ultimate.
 Prices on those have fallen a bit over the years and where you can use one, I more than highly recommend it. 

 Second to that is an ACME screw. AntiBacklash nuts can be made or added , and they can work very well, and are very inexpensive. They do wear out faster than ball screws,
but depending on the performance you want, even an Acme screw can work.

 Often, the X axis ( since it runs 4 foot or less across a table) can easily use a ballscrew, but the long axis (Y) of many tables would require a 8 foot ball screw,
 thats hard to come by, so I use a belt. Some use rack and pinion. I actually used belts on both X and Y axis, I like belts, very quiet, not any backlash to worry about,
 can be hard to find though with timing gears to match. We stole ours from XRay machines so I didn't have to search hard, but personally, Id like to have ball screws this time, so I'll
be lobbying for those or at least one of them with a belt for the long axis perhaps. (Anyway, this is about purchasing at the moment.. :) )

  Plywood tops are nice, they can be replaced or used sacrificially, but many of the units out there have aluminum tops, even a user with an aluminium top will often bold plywood to it
to use as a protector as it can easily be replaced after a couple years of mistakes and cutting. I guess my point here is that almost anything else can be modified or fixed pretty easily,
but basic construction can not. Look for well built tables that show the engineering skill used in its design, usually, if it looks tough, it is. An dont discount used tables, they often
are the greatest deals in the world, as long as they were good to begin with. Show a picture to a friend in engineering, ask him where he suspects any weakness, Even 1/4" steel
can flex, and you don't want flex, so its always good to ask, unless you know enough to judge. Its your money, but Id use caution.  Ive seen pretty bad designs that end up
being just about impossible to get running. Take specs as a general guide, they are often inaccurate as to maximum speeds, and they dont mention accelerations which is more
important than speed. Ill take a slow table with fast acceleration anyday over a fast table with slow acceleration, we'll deal with accel and speed when building later one, but if buying,
check it out well, its usually a big purchase.

 What should I pay? ---

    Good question. Only you know the answer. Ive seen tables from 1000.00 to 100,000 dollars, and the quality range is usually not linear with price, so again, check carefully with
your requirments in mind. I can tell you building one isnt cheap unless you root out the bargains. Our large table cost about 2000.00 to build and does great work, but Ive seen
systems costing $20,000 that I wouldnt trade for my 2000.00 table. (On the other hand I sometimes drool over a $3000.00 one..)

  EBay is great for parts, for almost anything on a router table, but like a flea market, junk abounds, be sure of what your buying, unless its a good risk. Good risks are there.
I got 3 yaskawa servos for soemthing like 600.00 , AC brushless with drivers.. thats a good deal for all the servo motors and drivers a router table will need, and the seller was great to talk to,
so I called it a good risk. They worked great.  Linear slides also go for great prices some days, and are very nice to have. (I swear by linear bearings).  Never discount Ebay just because
the parts may be old or used,many of them come from factories with tolerance much higher than youll ever have, and a set of linear bearings for a hundred or two is a great start to a
system that is extremenly tight and accurate.  And even if you dont think your going to want "Extremely tight and accurate, trust me,..you will..)

  Ill keep this forum to Wood routing, but those reading it and wanting to build plasma systems can consider the differences that they need. For example, for plasma work, rack and pinion (R&P) is great
, R&P can also be used for wood, but its not my preferance, been there, found it just abit crappy, belt is much better in my experience. There are different types of R&P though, and Im told the better
ones eliminate backlash as well as wearing very nicely, probably great for wood, I just havent used them.

 (Boy the people disagreeing with me are starting to build up now., Again, this is all jusy my personal experience..   :) )

 Anyway, when buying a system consider some of the above points, at worst youll be better informed, at best youll save time and money..

(to be continued..)

Art








1560
The table..


  Well, theres alot of ways to build a table. Ive used an aluminum table from an old table saw, still works pretty good, but wasnt ideal for what I wanted,
then we build a wooded one. Just like youd build a deck on your house. 4x4 legs, 2x8 joists, and a plywood top. (We'll only be discussing thetable itself here, not the gantry..)

  The table itself is basically a platform to set your gantry on. We're talking wood routing in this forum, so generally, anythign will work. You could bolt linear rails to a floor and it would
work great, but Im assuming your like me and dont want to crawl on the floow when putting material on your table, so we need something to hold thematerial at least at waist level,
thus we need to build a table. I was pretty impressed with the wooden one we buiild, pretty stable, no real warpage over time, and pretty easy to build if you can use a saw.
Metal tables are great too, if you can weld and have steel or dont mind the excessive cost of steel these days. My second table was about 4x8 and completely made of wood. To hold the
gantry, two plates of 1/4" steep were bolted to the side about 8" wide or so to bolt the gantry bearing to. Ill post photos of that one shortly. While Bob wants to build a completely new table,
Ill be lobbying for tearing down the wooden one and just rebuilding from there. In any event, theres only a few things to worry about in the table area. It must be strongly built. This is because you want
to dampedn vibrations , and keep things from warping. Good thing about a wooden table structure is it can be told to plane itself down to a flat top when your done. That worked very well for us on the last table.
 Id liek to go that route again. But if Bobs heart is set on it, what the heck, we can do steel as well. The end product probably weighs in about the same, I just like wood because its easily modified, and
relatively cheap. I HAVE see systems overengineered in the table, and then lightly engineered int he gantry..bad mistake.. If your going to overengineer, do it in the gantry (which we'll get to
soon. The table should be strong enough to so the job, overkill is good, and made of whatever makes you happy, take it form me though, wooden ones DO work well, sufficiently designed for strength.

to be continued...

Art