Messages

441

General Mach Discussion / Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course

« on: January 04, 2013, 06:03:26 AM »

I've gotten a couple of questions about the speed of the ATC, so I thought I'd expand on that a bit.

The gearboxes are rated for something like 2,400 RPM input continuous and there is no 'instant' or 'momentary' rating. The Mitsu servo motor on the arm has a max instant rating of 6,000RPM and I have tested the gearbox and shaft at that speed without any problems. I suspect the only issue would be heat and in this application it is doubtfull there would be any significant build up, but I'll know more about that when I start doing continuous torture testing.

The reason the speed is held back in the first test video is because the arm is not counterbalanced and the whole machine tries pretty hard to jump off the table if it is run much faster than is shown. I had not considered a counter balance for the arm, but it became an obvious punch list item as soon as I fired the thing up with the arm on it . . LOL!!

Some compromise weight will need to be chosen for a counterbalance since the tool weights will vary quite a bit, but anything will be better than nothing in this case.

Since the control system for the ATC will be so simple  ,  I may as well add a speed parameter per tool position. In this way the arm speed can be programmed to be appropriate for the tool. It occurs to me that this may actually net a significant improvement in the overall throughput.

Question for Hood and/or anyone else who has a commercial ATC; is the operating speed of the ATC fixed at a certain rate or can it be altered per tool? If not, then can it be altered overall?

The servo drive is easy enough to change speed, of course, but the air cylinders would be a bit more complicated to speed control. Anyone have some ideas on how to accomplish that?

442

General Mach Discussion / Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course

« on: January 04, 2013, 05:50:01 AM »

Thanks! I'll check them out.

500 watt is major overkill for my little carousel, but if the price is right, it would probably save enough time to be justified.

I think the list in the UK for a 005-SE is approx £1000 plus VAT, obviously list and what you actually pay is quite a bit different but it gives you an idea of tha ballpark figures.
It often makes me chuckle when I see them listed on eBay second hand, often they are more than you could get one new and paying full list

Hood

Ebay is a good resource, no doubt, but you do need to know what you're buying. I've seen the same thing that you've mentioned.

I definitely can't spend that kind of money on a single component for a prototype when I already have a solution in the J2S, but if I sold the J2S setup, that would cover the cost of the AB. The Mitsubishi drives are about ideal for a 4th axis and it seems the AB is ideal for a turret/carousel type application. I guess you just have to pick your poison.

Thanks very much for the info.

443

General Mach Discussion / Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course

« on: January 04, 2013, 05:44:29 AM »

I think your own words sum it up nicely.  You were disappointed that Tormach would not work with YOU to develope 3rd party hardware to run with a standard TORMACH. (;-)

You still don't get it, and you still post your personal speculations about me as if they are facts, so let me help you out with a few ACTUAL facts.

1) The 'development' was already completed long ago, so your latest statement above is also  . . false. Tormach is decidedly low-tech. Their 'engineering white paper' is actually just a list of excuses as to why steppers are 'better' than servos. 'Disappointed', you say? I think they would need to go back to school for a while before they could help me with development, frankly, but 'working with ME to develop' anything (as you claim) was definitely not on the menu. 

2) The objective was only to QC my MACH customizations with theirs. With the single exception of Tormach, every other vendor has been more than happy to cooperate. If you have ever done this, you would know that it is a simple matter of making sure multiple apps don't use the same outputs and other MACH resources and then merging the screens. This in not rocket science, but is apparently beyond Tormach's abilities. I will SPECULATE that Tormach is not so much unwilling as they are unable to cooperate because their stuff is third party and they don't understand it themselves. Using outdated version of software in order to 'avoid new bugs' is an excuse, in my view. They either do not have the talent in house or they do not want to pay for third party review of bug FIXES.

3) You made the accusation that my motivation was to 'sell something to the Owners'. Way off base once again. Several previous InTurn™ models have gone to Tormach owners. Most of these users already had clean MACH installs and had ditched Tormach's stuff. One of them took on the task of integration himself. Two of the new MEGA-Duty models from the last batch went to Tormach owners. One of them has a clean MACH install and the other was looking for a solution. These were done deals and I did not HAVE to do anything at all to 'sell something to the Owners'. My effort was after the fact, by customer request, and would have been an uncompensated support function.

Now let me explain 'Red Neck Logic'; A red neck farts. Just then it begins to rain. Conclusion: farting causes rain. Proof: 'seen it mahseff'. Once the redneck has this 'fact' lodged in his brain cel, there it no way to change it.

Things are not always what they appear. I remain uninterested in your opinion about Tormach and I am still not going to get into a debate with anyone about their policies, but I do ask that you collect some facts and maybe ask a question or two before you shoot your mouth off about my motivations, intentions,  or any other part of my character.   

This thread is not about Tormach, or Tormach fanbois. If you have nothing to contribute to the topic, please lurk quietly.

444

General Mach Discussion / Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course

« on: January 03, 2013, 11:02:53 AM »

The smallest is 500watt, 2.5 Amps cont 5 Amps peak.
The models to look for are
2098- DSD-005X
2098- DSD-005-SE
2098- DSD-005X-DN

The first is the Indexing drive, second is sercos but if you disable that it turns it into an Indexing drive, the last is the Indexing Device Net version.

There is also
2098- DSD-005
2098- DSD-005-DN
Neither of these support Indexing.

Hood

Thanks! I'll check them out.

500 watt is major overkill for my little carousel, but if the price is right, it would probably save enough time to be justified.

445

General Mach Discussion / Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course

« on: January 03, 2013, 11:00:58 AM »

Sorry but I support Tormach's policy. It would be the same if I bought a new car then took it apart to change engine parts to make it more sporty and more HP. 

Of course you would not because you want to sell the Owners something. (;-)

AGAIN we should just agree to disagree, (;-) TP

You analogy is far off the mark, I'm afraid. There is certainly no shortage of disagreements between us, but in this case it would be imaginary. We would be disagreeing on whether the number 2 or the color red is the best flavor.  It is obvious that you missed the point entirely.

It matters zero to me what your opinion of Tormach's policies are, but it does matter that you present your speculations about me as if they were facts. You may have noted that when I am speculating, I say so plainly. I think that would be a good policy for you to support.

446

General Mach Discussion / Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course

« on: January 03, 2013, 09:23:41 AM »

That is very nice indeed
Hood

Hood, can you tell me if there is a low power (say 100 to 200 watt) version of the AB drive you are using for your turret that might have identical features to those that you are taking advantage of?

I am using my spare 400 watt Mitsu J3 for the arm and I purchased a 200 watt Mitsu J2S for the turret. The Mitsu does have programable motion, but it is incredibly convoluted process to set up. From what you describe, the AB is very straightforward. 

 

447

General Mach Discussion / Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course

« on: January 02, 2013, 05:07:40 PM »

I will catch up on this thread when I have more time. For now, here is a short video of the first test of the partially assembled ATC on the steel plate that will be the side of the head for the new mill.

Couple notes: I only have one Carousel 'pod' so not much point in spinning it around, but there is a motor fitted and the carousel rotates. There is a lot of play in the carousel partially due to the missing motor, but most or all of the play will be removed during final assembly.

I have removed the individual safety interlocks from each pod in favor of a single interlock on the air cylinder that releases the pod.

The sliding shaft is covered by a rubber bellows . . not installed for testing.

The mechanics are running a little over half speed for this first test.

The coil spring replacement for the belleville stack is completed, but I have to reassemble the spindle, test the actuator and then can add it to this mock-up. Testing with the spindle in place is going to require more air valves and relays to drive them so there are some do-dads that will need to be acquired to test all of the pieces together.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFEfXIAlqCE&feature=youtu.be

448

General Mach Discussion / Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course

« on: December 30, 2012, 06:22:41 PM »

Ray I believe Tormach's stance is to LOCK OUT access to the motor tuning parameters  Steps Per, Vel and accel. From  support stance I cannot find fault with that.
Also they do give you the option of unlocking it for you BUT they will not support you after that point. Can't argue with that either.

I think you were addressing my post, so I will respond. Incidentally, you forgot to mention that warranty is also effected if an owner signs Tormach's waiver to get access to their MACH software. Do you find fault with that I wonder.

You can believe what you want. As I said, I have Tormach's official response in writing and I have quoted directly from that document. If you want to see the actual e-mail, just ask and I will be happy to post it so that 'interpretation' is not needed.

I don't care to get into a Tormach debate, but I do want to clarify one thing. In my inquiry, did not suggest Tormach change their policy (regardless of how condescending *most* people think it is). I offered to spend MY time reconfiguring MY software to eliminate any possible conflict with their setup, and that no Tormach customer needed to be involved nor inconvenienced nor given access to anything. The process would be one engineer (me) consulting with an other engineer (Tormach's) to provide QC for the benefit of Tormach owners.

Their response (again in writing) was that they are " . . . not excited about helping third parties, particularly those [who's products] compete with Tormach's".  They inked me to their 'Duality Lathe' as if that was in any way competitive with or equivalent to the InTurn™. My current controller also accommodates a servo driven spindle with universal hard tapping macros included. Tormach has no equivalent that I am aware of.

The simple solution is to ditch the entire Tormach setup and do a fresh install of MACH and put the InTurn™ stuff over it. Tormach only succeeded in aggravating their own users  . . and me. I am asked a couple of time a week what machine I reccommend for use with the InTurn™ 4th axis. Venture a guess?

449

General Mach Discussion / Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course

« on: December 30, 2012, 05:29:43 PM »

Steve,

BTW - I'm also in discussions with a machine manufacturer, to potentially design a PDB/ATC system for several of their machines, loosely based on my current design.  There are, of course, a number of things I would do differently on the second go-round.

Regards,
Ray L.

I am supposed to be semiretired, but most of my time is still consumed by consulting work, mostly under DNA and in such arrangements, by contract, liability transfers to the client. Selling a product that I manufacture directly to an end user is a whole other animal.

If I am able to get the proper insurance, I will make the spindle and ATC available to end users, otherwise only to manuf who will assume liability under their umbrella.

I am aware that you are on the same side of the pond, that's why I figured you can appreciate the paranoia. The insurance industry is as nuts as the legal system. A well know insurance company gave us a TD because . . now get this . .  they decided that the 4th axis constitutes 'automation' and they do not underwrite 'automation' because 'automation' *might* be used to make guns or gun parts. WTF      Gotta be lawyer prints all over that one.   

450

General Mach Discussion / Re: BT30 spindle from scratch - with power drawbar and ATC of course

« on: December 30, 2012, 05:14:08 PM »

wait a minute, I did NOT know there was Beer involved in this!!

Here is an ATC prototype I did for Tormach a while back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcWUZJ35yL0&feature=youtu.be

Scott

Interesting. If I read between the lines in your video description, things did not go well with Tormach on this project.

I have it in writing from Tormach's engineering manager that their MACH software is 'locked down' because Tormach does not believe users should be allowed access the 'flakey' MACH software in their own systems for fear they will mess up the 'motor parameters'.

As you know, in MACH parlance, 'locked down' versions have nothing to do with keeping users out and there are no motor parameters in MACH. These statements indicate to me an unfamiliarity with MACH which lead me to speculate that Tormach uses outside sources for some or all of their development. You have now confirmed that.