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Messages - TeknicServo

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1
Mach4 Plugins / Re: Teknic Clearcore
« on: February 27, 2024, 08:44:11 AM »
Hi Mcboudreaux,
So far no daring developer (at least none that we know of) has taken up the challenge to code up a CNC project for ClearCore. Maybe 2024 will be the year?

Regards,
Jim W.
Teknic Servo Systems Engineer

2
Hi rogerfries,

I'm sorry to hear that you're experiencing some strange behavior with the machine. It's difficult to say exactly where this issue is stemming from without more information, but it is possible that there's some setting/configuration issue with the Mach controller or the ClearPath motors.

It may be helpful to know that the MSP (motor setup program) software that comes with the ClearPath-SD motors can be used for troubleshooting/diagnostics in addition to configuring the motors and running tests. In this case, the digital oscilloscope included in the MSP software could be used to determine whether or not the commands are actually being received by the motors (one way of achieving this is by looking at the Commanded Velocity on the scope while sending commands to the motors from the controller). For more information about using the digital oscilloscope, please see pages 82-89 of the ClearPath User Manual (which can be found on the Teknic website here: https://teknic.com/downloads/).

If you have any further questions or are looking for additional troubleshooting steps, please feel free to submit a contact request on Teknic’s website (https://teknic.com/contact/) or give us a call at 585-784-7454, and we would be happy to help further.

Aimee F. - Teknic Applications Engineer

3
Hi RecceDG,

The “bang” is likely due to the servo accurately following an instantaneous acceleration command. If you want to maintain 1 G of peak acceleration but have motion easier on your mechanics and likely improve part quality, you can utilize the ClearPath’s RAS (Regressive Auto Spline) to provide jerk limiting. If you’re interested in learning how to apply this user-adjustable smoothing feature, here is a video link:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/WOyP51-PiTs?rel=0&iv_load_policy=3

With a CNC, just be sure to select the same RAS value on all the axes.

Best regards,
Erik M…Teknic servo systems engineer

4
Hi Dbl_Tap,

I am an applications engineer at Teknic and came across this post and your other post on CNCzone. I want to provide some additional information on the ClearPath motor’s digital output, HLFB (High-Level Feedback).

You can configure HLFB to let you know when you’ve finished making a move (without losing the ability to know if the motor has faulted). HLFB, as you’re likely aware, is a user-configurable digital output which can be set into various modes, each of which outputs a number of different motor statuses. ClearPath's HLFB output can, depending on the mode, simultaneously provide the following data to your controller: real-time torque usage, Move Done (including when you’ve finished a homing move), In-position, and fault status.

A detailed discussion of all HLFB modes is covered in the ClearPath User Manual. I’d encourage you to review them and feel free to contact us if you have any questions. Please note that some HLFB modes provide multiple statuses and will require that you program your controller to identify them. I have not personally used the Mach4 controller, but based on joeavaerage’s comments above, it sounds like you can program/configure your controller in a number of different ways. So there should be an HLFB mode that will work for you.

If you have any other questions about ClearPath’s HLFB output or want to discuss your project with an applications engineer, please feel free to contact us at https://teknic.com/contact/ or give us a call (585-784-7454).

-Ian R. – Teknic Applications Engineer

5
Hi joeaverage,

I'm saying that NO servo should be used in this manner. Lets ay you set a torque limit of 1Nm being a suitable value to get worthwhile acceleration
of the axis. Then that same 1Nm would be applied via the ballscrew to the plasma torch before any over-torque detection could occur. It does not matter how
fast the servo can react it will and must apply its torque BEFORE it can detect that the torch has impacted the plate. The force will likely destroy the tip.
With a little ingenuity, we have developed ways to detect the plate without applying the full torque that’s used to accelerate the axis (please see the ClearPath user manual). There are thousands of axes out there that use ClearPath’s hardstop homing and/or zone torque limiting to home axes, detect objects in the servo’s path, or clamp material in place, many of which involve sensitive equipment. There are some applications for which we don’t recommend this approach because of application-specific factors. This is why we suggested that the OP reach out to Teknic to see if these features could be used in his system. The facts and circumstances of the situation matter a great deal in determining whether or not a certain feature should be used, but to categorically say that it can’t be used under any circumstances is a generalization that isn’t accurate.

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Fact: Clearpath has one, and only one digital output, and by PWM of that output one, and only one, analog variable.
Yes, ClearPath has one output, but by implementing PWM modulation of that output, we are not attempting to create a single analog output. Instead, depending on the controller, Teknic generally recommends that customers use the HLFB output mode called “ASG with measured torque”. This mode can simultaneously convey: 1) fault status, 2) the fact that the motor is moving, 3) how much torque it’s using while moving, and 4) when it’s finished moving and settled. (Please see the user manual.)

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Clearpath servos use an encoder of 12800 count per rev
This is mostly correct: ClearPath fractional hp NEMA 23/34 motors have a 12,800 count optical encoder; integral hp NEMA 56/143/D100 ClearPath motors have a 64,000 count per rev optical encoder. (There are technical reasons for this difference that are not germane here.)

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Delta (B2) has a 160,000 count per rev encoder, vastly better.
It would be fair (although incomplete) to say that the Delta encoder has more resolution based on its specs, but it isn’t accurate to say that the encoder is vastly better. Resolution is not the only figure of merit for an encoder, and the number of counts per revolution does not convey any information about the accuracy of those counts. There’s also the question of the practical usability of such extreme resolution, whether for positioning repeatability or control fidelity—there are other much more limiting factors once the resolution gets above 8,000 counts per rev (although higher resolutions between 8,000 and 64,000 may make sense under certain circumstances and deliver meaningful improvements in performance).

In order to get extremely high resolution out of a magnetic encoder (or even a high-quality optical encoder, for that matter) you have to do an extreme amount of interpolation. An encoder on a motor at the price point you mention will typically have noise, drift and other variability that makes the accuracy about 15 times (!) worse than the resolution. And if that isn’t enough, the filtering required to pull that fine a signal from the noise means that the servo gets its information delayed (and if it’s a serial encoder, the communication delays make it even worse). This all has a significant negative impact on servo performance.

Finally, even with a hypothetical “perfect” encoder, the mechanical imperfections in the motor and bearings will turn that extreme resolution into random noise, so even if you don’t care about poor accuracy, the noise means your servo loop gets no smoothness or dynamic performance benefit either.

We know all this because our engineers evaluated these encoders for ClearPath (and again recently for some yet unreleased products). So the above are all empirically proven facts. My opinion is that certain servo manufacturers emphasize resolution because many people will assume that “more must be better” and will not understand (or be aware of) the other important technical points. 

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My opinion is that Clearpath have poor IO capability, modest (at best) encoder resolution, and are expensive for what you get. This is assessment of FACT. It is not misinformation
or disinformation, but a personal assessment of FACT. I can well understand that you don't like it....but tough, I have an opinion and am entitled to it.
You seem angry, and I’m not sure why you think Teknic is trying to change or invalidate your opinion. We are just trying to clarify some complex technical points. We have no objection to you having your own opinion. No product is a perfect fit for everyone. Your priorities for a servo system are clear, and you should make the choice you deem most appropriate. I’m sorry if I came across in any way that suggested that you should change your opinion or that you do not have a right to one.

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Now lets talk about OP's actual situation.

He needs a signal to indicate when the plasma tip touches the plate. Lets say you devise a strategy to use the HLFB to indicate that condition, then how would you indicate
a Following Error or overload condition? You only have one output, and by definition if you use it to signal one condition you cannot use it to signal a fault as well, its one or the other.
Again, with a little ingenuity, it’s not hard to convey multiple things to the controller with only one output. I’m not sure why you keep saying this is not possible when a quick review of the ClearPath user manual (it’s a free download) explains how this works (specifically the section that covers ASG w/ measured torque).

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Despite the fact that Teknic products are designed for the OEM market (see the About Us page on our website), a side effect of the reduced wiring problems and the ease with which a ClearPath servo system can be implemented, is that many corporate end-users and hobbyists have been attracted to ClearPath. And even though we didn’t set out originally to sell to end-users and hobbyists, we are happy that ClearPath has been well-received, and we enjoy supporting such a wide range of people and applications.

All opinion only, and not all of which I agree with.

When I explain how and why we designed ClearPath for our experienced OEM customers, I don’t understand how you can say that’s an opinion. Every one of the engineers at Teknic who participated in the ClearPath design project can attest to the fact that we designed ClearPath for our core customer base, not first-time servo users. That said, I have to admit we were pleasantly surprised by how big the market of first-time users is, and how much they like ClearPath.

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For instance your name for your servos 'Stepper Killers', is that or is that not designed to entice first time buyers?
The name, which started as an internal joke during product development and eventually stuck, has nothing to do with enticing first-time [servo] buyers. Many OEMs still use stepper motors in their products. “Stepper killer” is our attempt to humorously state that we believe we have a product that can beneficially replace stepper motors in many of their applications. (I say many, not all, applications because stepper motors are still a good choice in many applications, especially when the power requirement is low and the motor frame size needs to be smaller than NEMA 23. That’s why Teknic offers standalone drives (only to OEMs) that can control stepper motors in a closed-loop servo manner.)

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I would agree that Tecknics do a a masterly job at supporting customers, and I have never claimed otherwise. I would also commend that Tecknics follow on-line forums for any issues related
to your products, to whit, you and your colleagues have taken me to task about my opinions on forums other than this one. As I have stated I base my opinions on the facts of Clearpath servos
and and willing to change my opinion in light of new facts, but refuse to be badgered out of my opinion without new facts. That you don't like it is immaterial to me.
Again, please don’t feel like we are trying to badger you. We sincerely are not. Teknic’s two reasons for responding to forum posts are to answer questions and correct factual errors. If you state your opinions, regardless of how negative about a Teknic product, without any misstatements of fact, or materially incomplete (i.e., misleading) commentary, we will rarely post a response. And if you post a misstatement of fact that puts a Teknic product in a better light than it deserves to be based on the facts, we will correct that too. (Look around this forum and YouTube, and you will see we have done this many times). Our goal is to help others understand motion control technology and apply it in a way that makes them successful. If this forum’s members (and the general market) are well-educated, they will choose the best products for their needs. We think that’s a great outcome for everyone.

Jon K. – Teknic Servo Systems Engineer

6
Hi gyrojeremy,

ClearPath has two features which may be used (depending on your mechanics and other details of your situation) to allow you to set the zero position without a sensor: Hardstop Homing and Zone Torque Limiting.

joeaverage has stated that this cannot be done because the response from the host will be too slow or the increased torque through the gearing will be too low for the servo to detect before it’s too late. This is true with many servos, but ClearPath can drive to the zero position with a low (user-defined) torque limit (with either of the features mentioned above), so it can carefully monitor and limit the applied force.

Moreover, inside a ClearPath servo, the Position/Velocity compensator is completely synchronized with the vector torque control. ClearPath’s TSPD (Total Servo Phase Delay—the elapsed time from when the encoder feedback and currents are read until the PWM outputs to the motor are modulated) is less than 50 microseconds. With ClearPath making the decision on when the torque is high enough to signal probe contact (as opposed to the host CNC controller), the motion can be stopped very quickly.

The implementation of these features will depend on the specific machine design and application, so I can’t say for certain whether you will be able to use the features mentioned on your particular machine. But if you give us a call, we’d be happy to discuss your personal requirements and see if using one of these features is a possibility. Please feel free to contact Teknic directly at https://teknic.com/contact or give us a call at 585-784-7454.

Hi joeaverage,

It is true that there is only one physical status output on ClearPath-SD series motors. That said, ClearPath-SD's HLFB output can, depending on how you configure your motor, simultaneously provide the following data to your controller: real-time torque usage, MoveDone, In-position, and fault status. (Note that in addition to what I wrote above, the ClearPath-SC series motors have a software communication interface, so host applications can query the motor for additional information.)

Even if you were to only monitor the shutdown state of ClearPath (and not the other data mentioned above), the Mach controller can still easily stop the other axes from moving and crashing when any motor shuts down. I’m not sure why you think this is not possible; almost all machine designers do this with ClearPath. ClearPath’s HLFB (High Level Feedback Output) can provide this fault feedback as well as provide the signal to allow the use of the Hardstop Homing or Zone Torque Limiting features. If you’re interested how this works, please download a ClearPath user manual.

What you said about the ClearPath being designed specifically to appeal to “first time servo buyers” is incorrect. You’ve mentioned this on other forums before, but I wanted to address this here because others reading your post may not realize it, so I will quote/paraphrase what a colleague of mine recently wrote to you:

Design decisions made for the ClearPath motors were done with our typical OEM user base in mind (generally experienced controls engineers in a wide variety of machine automation industries). In addition to high-performance and value, these companies tend to value overall system reliability very highly. By incorporating many features into the motor’s firmware, we were able to remove the need for many additional inputs and outputs, thus increasing the overall system reliability.

Our experience over more than thirty years of technical support has proven that the biggest cause of malfunction in machines using servos is electrical corruption of the input and output signals, or intermittent or bad connection of one or more signal wires. We, and our customers, have found that overall system reliability is greatly enhanced by reduced wiring.

Despite the fact that Teknic products are designed for the OEM market (see the About Us page on our website), a side effect of the reduced wiring problems and the ease with which a ClearPath servo system can be implemented, is that many corporate end-users and hobbyists have been attracted to ClearPath. And even though we didn’t set out originally to sell to end-users and hobbyists, we are happy that ClearPath has been well-received, and we enjoy supporting such a wide range of people and applications. Supporting first-time users has been an interesting experience for us over the years since ClearPath was introduced, and it has led us to create even better website features, documentation, and support videos among other things. And that is a win for everyone.

Jon K. – Teknic Servo Systems Engineer

7
HiCON Motion Controller / Re: Couple questions about ArcPro
« on: December 15, 2021, 06:38:51 PM »
Hi DynMetalworks - I'm an engineer with Teknic and would like to comment on your 4th question regarding wiring to a ClearPath motor. All of ClearPath's I/O signals would be wired to the motion controller (in this case ArcPro or ESSTMC). This would include ENABLE, STEP, and DIRECTION (these are outputs from the CNC controller) and the HLFB (this would be an input to the CNC controller).  HLFB is a status output bit from ClearPath and the 4 letter acronym means High Level Feed Back.  It is commonly wired to a CNC controller alarm input, if available, to give 'servo on'/'servo off' feedback.  I wasn't sure what you meant by HVLB (was this just a typo or did you mean something like high voltage link box)?
The electrical section within our ClearPath manual (https://teknic.com/files/downloads/clearpath_user_manual.pdf) has several well annotated wiring diagrams to use as reference.
I hope this helps. If you have any additional questions, feel free to contact Teknic directly at https://teknic.com/contact/ or give us a call at 585-784-7454.
Best regards,
Abe A. – Teknic Servo Systems Engineer

8
Hi cwps,

I am an applications engineer with Teknic and came across your post.  The ClearPath motors you are using can be helpful to troubleshoot the issue you are seeing.  By connecting to the ClearPath motors through the USB port on the back of the motor, you can see the motor’s current position, torque, and tracking error in real time.  Using this information, you can bisect the issue to help narrow down the possible causes.

If you move from G0Y0 to G0Y42 you can note the motor’s measured position at the beginning and at the end of the move.  If the distance traveled is the same for both motors, then the issue with squareness is mechanical in nature (alignment of screws/rails, slipping couplings etc.).  If the final positions are different, then the issue comes from the motors receiving a different command so you should check your settings in Mach 3 to makes sure the motors are being sent the same number of steps (and that the motors input resolutions are set correctly).

You also may find it helpful to review this video on how to use the MSP software oscilloscope to collect more information on the motor’s performance and your mechanics.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITCtQLWI7XI

If you have any additional questions feel free to contact us at https://www.teknic.com/contact/

-Brendan F. Teknic Servo Systems Engineer

9
Mach4 Plugins / Re: Teknic Clearcore
« on: August 06, 2020, 08:40:48 AM »
Hi mcboudreaux,

I'm an Applications Engineer at Teknic. I saw your post and I want to clarify a few points (and also to make an offer to this community).

You're absolutely correct that ClearCore is not a native CNC controller or breakout board, and is not currently compatible with Mach or any other CNC controllers as the main motion controller. The step/direction signals ClearCore natively produces are targeted for machines that primarily do “point-to-point” motion (where the path through space is not important). However, from a hardware perspective, it seems very possible that a ClearCore CNC software "engine" could be created to interpret G-code, create complex multi-axis contoured paths, and manage other I/O functionality necessary for a modern CNC machine.

Here is an overview of ClearCore's capabilities:
https://www.teknic.com/products/io-motion-controller/

This being said, we've gotten numerous requests over the past couple months for CNC compatibility with ClearCore. In regard to Teknic’s offer to this community, if an experienced programmer would like to create this CNC engine to be used with ClearCore, Teknic will gladly provide support and equipment throughout the development process.

If anyone is interested, and feel they have the experience and background to develop this type of CNC functionality, please contact us at sales@teknic.com

Best regards,
Matt C. - Teknic Servo Systems Engineer

10
Hi Start_Anew,

I'm an Applications Engineer at Teknic and I happened to come across your post. Hopefully I can help clear up a few things.

ClearPath's "Enable" input controls power to the motor coils. If you don't wire the Enable to anything, the input will always read 0V (i.e. the input will always be de-asserted) and the motor will always be "disabled". A disabled motor will output zero torque (you will be able to freely spin the shaft by hand) and will not complete any commands you send. If the motor is "enabled" (receiving 5-24VDC to the "Enable" input), then it will follow motion commands from your controller.

You should wire the Enable to a 5-24VDC output that can be switched high (5-24VDC) or low (0V).  A quick look at the MB3 manual shows several NPN/sinking transistor outputs that you could wire to the Enable input. You should wire them according to the schematics in the "Input Wiring" section of the ClearPath-MC/SD user manual.

HLFB is ClearPath's configurable High Level Feedback output. The output is optional, meaning you can run the motor without wiring it to anything. Please refer to the "ClearPath Output (HLFB)" section of the ClearPath-MC/SD user manual for more information on how to use HLFB and its different configurations. The MB3 manual shows several optically isolated inputs (they are labeled as PLC inputs in the ClearPath User Manual wiring diagrams) that you could seemingly wire to HLFB. It looks like the MB3 inputs can be wired as sinking or sourcing (HLFB can also be wired as either).

I hope this helps. Feel free to contact Teknic directly if you have any other questions at support@teknic.com .

Best,
Matt C. - Teknic Servo Systems

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