Messages

1

General Mach Discussion / Re: General Q's about Mach3 and AD sureservo drives and smooth stepper

« on: May 07, 2008, 11:18:13 PM »

Scott,

Wasn't thinking of the pendant and the override pot, but it makes perfect sense.  Have you used a particular MPG unit that works well with Mach3? I have seen a few out there but looking for one that is recommended or easy to work with in terms of connecting and setup.  Do you or does anyone else know if the Mach3 software has any built in programming for machines with vertical drill blocks, both in the X and the Y axes?  The vertical drill blocks are usually on 32mm centers and usually include at least 2 or 3 drills in each axis.  If you don't already know, the drill blocks are used primarily for line boring, and depending on the programming the controller interprets the Gcode and activates as many of the drills as possible to drill multiple holes on 32mm centers, or through a post processor the GCode produced in a manner that calls multiple vertical drills to activate for a drill cycle.  Each vertical drill is usually considered a "tool" in the controller.

Okay, I too agree the 1kw motors will be on the small size for a heavy gantry.  I will consider larger drives and servos, or will cut down on feed rate to compensate.

Im just trying to conceptualize everything first, before I take the plunge.

Jeremy

p.s. Are you proficient with directsoft and AD PLC's? 

2

General Mach Discussion / Re: General Q's about Mach3 and AD sureservo drives and smooth stepper

« on: May 07, 2008, 09:50:46 PM »

Yo Jeremy,

a couple of observations...

How are you going to power your 5HP Colombo spindle on Single Phase?  I think once you crack the 3 HP barrier you're pretty much going to need to be in 3 Phase land. 

Also, I'm kinda curious what it is that your going to be cutting?  For a machine that's designed to travel @ 3000 IPM, unless your cutting styrofoam, I don't think that 5 HP is going to be enough.

Just my $.02

Sid

Sid,
Thanks for the observation, but everything is theory at this point.  3 phase is not out of the question...just can't do it at the moment b/c I don't have access to three phase at my home where I plan to do the initial build.  I do have access to a static and a rotary phase converter, but they aren't very nice to electronics.  The reason I said a 5hp spindle is because that is the smallest I have found with an ATC, a machine with a multi tool ride along tool changer is a goal I have set for myself.  And yes, I think 3hp is the cap for a drive to manufacture 3 phase on the output side of a drive.  3000ipm Rapids are the high end of the scale.  1000ipm or 25m/min max is suitable for the applications I have in mind.

Jeremy

3

General Mach Discussion / Re: General Q's about Mach3 and AD sureservo drives and smooth stepper

« on: May 07, 2008, 05:19:39 PM »

Sid,

I'm questioning the magic number "531"......

The formula you show does not reflect any gearing information, which would definatly affect the presented load on the servo motor, regardless of weight.  I am assuming the magic number of 531, somehow relates to an unknown gear ratio.

For example a 1:1 ratio will present an actual "true" load on the servo motor, and the motor would have to be sized accordingly to handle the weight.  Now say the same load with a 50:1 ratio, will drive much slower, but a smaller servo would easily be able to handle the load, its would be gaining torque at the cost of RPM.


From what I have researched and found, the motor sizing is directly related to the mass of the object being moved, the presented inertia of such mass, and the "drag" or friction of the moving components such as linear bearings, rack and pinion, ball screws, etc, combined.

Im interested to hear more on this as it is a bit mysterious to me also!

When in doubt, just oversize the servo!

Jeremy

4

General Mach Discussion / Re: General Q's about Mach3 and AD sureservo drives and smooth stepper

« on: May 07, 2008, 04:52:18 PM »

Brett,

Thanks for the exact info.  I can see now how that ratio is needed.  Looking at the video again, that is a  heavy looking gantry.  Looks like a lot of steel and cast iron darting back and forth

Scott.

I am located in Suwanee Ga. about 30 minutes northeast of Atlanta.

ok, I see now about two slots occupied with the ethernet module, and the analog card for inverter speed using 0-10v.  That all makes sense.

Why not write frequency via modbus?  is is a pain, or does it present difficulty over the analog signal?

I have primarily used the durapulse in the past on a handful of occasions.  I believe it's made by Delta of Taiwan, as is the sureservo drives.  I Used 2 GS's in the past, one developed an intermittent ground fault error after about 3 months of operation.  I replaced it with a durapulse of the same size after I was sure there truly was not a GF condition, and have never looked back.  You are right, I wasn't thinking about the carousel system clearly.  I was thinking from a simplicity standpoint, of using the internal indexer, but absolutly could write rev/pulse via modbus and also trigger positioning via modbus for an infinite number of tool positions.  The only limitation then would be carousel size.  The air assist would definatly be a proportional valve (forgot to mention that in my last message), the axis would have *some* weight as the amount of air would be limited to prevent full weightlessness. 

My main consideration for the 2kw is the supply power requirement of 220/3.  I have been leaning towards the 1 kw since it will accept 220/1.  I would gain an additional 1000 rpm over the 2 kw.  My thought was I could use the extra 1000 RPM of the 1 kw, and adjust my ratios to gain aditional torque, since the 2kw have a max RPM of 2000 anyway.  I don't think I would get as much torque as the 2Kw servo, but could certainly make up for some of the loss.  What do you think?  Feesable?

Thanks,

Jeremy

5

General Mach Discussion / Re: General Q's about Mach3 and AD sureservo drives and smooth stepper

« on: May 07, 2008, 12:41:27 AM »

Brett,
Thanks for the info!  I see the benefit of the gear ratio if using small servos.  I don't predict having such a ratio with the large servo's I intend on using.  A lot has yet to be worked out here though.  I will look into the videos more.

Monte,
Thanks for the forum suggestion, I'll give it a look.  Just getting the info lined up at the moment.  I just want to know my options as well as the pro's and cons of either interface.  As Scott noted, may be better to wait a bit until all the bugs are worked out, but I do like the idea of the faster pulse stream and love the idea of USB, just for easier interface connection and a more streamlined setup.

Scott,
Thanks too for the info!  I will respond to all of your points and see if you or the others that have contributed to this topic have anything to add.

1) I was just using an example modbus address, just something I pulled out of my head at the time of writing.
2) I am working on a project now where I am using a cmore micro, a dl06, and a 750w sureservo to control a single axis linear positioning system.  I am writing and reading data using the cmore micro, to the DL06 using serial k-sequence protocol and DL06 to sureservo drive using modbus.  I believe I am using some of the features in this current project that I will be using in my router project. 
3) I am currently leaning towards the 1kw servos for the very reason you stated, RPM.  But, I will be using a rack and pinion, so I will be able to overcome the lower RPM of the 2kw motors with the revolutions of the pinion, if I decide after calculations of weight/inertia.
4) I have dl'd the calculation program, but have not had any solid numbers to throw at it yet.  I do plan on a semi-heavy gantry, somewhere around 150-250lbs without the router spindle/motor.  On most heavy commercial machines, it is common place to have a pneumatic assist cylinder that "pushes upward" thus reducing the effective weight of the Z axis.  Up/down vertical positioning on the Z axis using the pneumatic assist cylinder makes the axis effectively near weightless.  The assist cylinder helps to overcome the gravitational pull from the weight of the Z axis.
5) I prefer to use an all in one spindle.  Definitely at a greater cost, but pretty much standard for the woodworking industry, and commercial level machines.
6) Your setup here sounds like what I was envisioning for my setup.
7) I have the 10 base e-comm module, should I really consider the 100base for the router application?
I am unsure of the I/O requirements, but 32/32 may be pushing it.  With the DL06, the ethernet module will occupy 1 of the 4 option slots.  Is it not advisable to use the option slots for additional I/O if needed?  I wasn't sure of the exact interface to the VFD, but I "was" thinking of modbus to at least control frequency (spindle RPM)....what do you think?
9)  My plan with the ATC in regards to the carousel axis, I was just intending to use the internal indexer of the sure servo drive, with positions triggered using the bit sequencing of the ziplink breakout board.  I would have the capability of  8 tool positions, or 9 positions if I use the home position as a tool holder position also.  "m6 program?"  what are you referring to?
11)  I have been "thinking" commercial throughout this whole process of conceptualizing this router.  I will be honest, I would like to eventually go commercial and produce machines, and feel like I would have a good offering in terms of price, construction, support, quality, and components used.  I have yet to work out the details, but first things first...and that is building a machine, using same components as I would if I was selling it, and working out the bugs.  As well as performing a considerable amount of R&D.
12) I agree it's best to wait until the SS has all bugs worked out, for a commercial machine..that is.
13) I intend to have a seperate cabinet/controller pendant to house the computer.  A current and ongoing ghost or full backup is a must for any PC controlled machine.  I would absolutely have some sort of backup/restore routine in place to protect the customer in the event of a hardware failure.
14) For the initial build i'll probably just use manual ball valves, but for a commercial machine, electrovalves are a must, in my opinion anyway.
15) The ATC spindle will be pneumatic control.  the standards I am most accustomed to are ISO, BT, and HSK, all are pneumatic locking.
16) Interested in more info on this for sure!
17) I have worked with Bill on a couple of occasions, but will keep Scott's name in my back pocket, im sure i'll need more help as I proceed.
18) I have the latest Directsoft and sureservo pro software, and I always confirm/update latest firmware when possible.  I think I have encoutered a few bugs in the sureservo software myself.  I am quite pleased with their products and their support...not to mention they are about 20 minutes away..  order online....and have it in hand in less than an hour.  Can't beat that!

Thanks to all of you so far, you all have been an enormous help to get the ball rolling.

Jeremy

6

General Mach Discussion / Re: General Q's about Mach3 and AD sureservo drives and smooth stepper

« on: May 05, 2008, 09:59:43 PM »

Brett,
Thanks for the info.  Everything you have described sounds pretty good.  25:1 gearbox ratio sounds really steep.  If I can achieve the speeds in the video, I would be happy.  I wasn't sure of the speed of the machine in the video, but 1200 IPM looks fast enough for me.  When you say 5" pinion roll out. I assume you mean 5" per 1 rev?  Have you any experience with Automation Direct sure servo's?  I see you know their ethernet module, just so happens I have one in a DL06 i'm playing around with at the moment.  I think too the serial would be fast enough, the RJ12 port on the 06 is limited to 9600, and the 15 pin port is limited to 38.4, if I recall.  In either case, plenty fast enough to relay the signals to invoke the logic sequences. 

The logic I am speaking of would be the sequence of tool change events such as: stop spindle>spindle stopped report>carousel rotate to current tool position if not already>lateral carousel movement to fork tool holder>spindle unclamp>spindle unclamp report>z axis raise to preset position>carousel rotate to next tool in Gcode>Z axis lower to grip tool holder>spindle clamp tool holder>spindle clamp report> carousel lateral move back to rest position, router resumes working....etc.

Does the smooth stepper connect to the PC via USB?  Are the parallel port(s) of the PC used for any Mach3 purpose if I choose a smooth stepper?  What is the number of I/O's available with the smooth stepper?

I intend to use either the 1kw medium inertia or the 2kw medium inertia servos on X and Y, and 1kw on Z with a pneumatic assist cylinder.  Probably a 750w on the tool changer carousel.  I don't have all the mechanics and weights worked out just yet so that is why I have yet to decide on servo size.  I intend to use a rack and pinion drive on X and Y, and a ball screw on Z, with belt drive on all axes.

Monte,
I think, from what I have researched, I won't need anything other than the capability that currently exists is Mach3.  Are there areas of functionality that do not work properly when using the smooth stepper?



Does any one know:

1) How I would write via modbus from the PC/Mach3 to the PLC?  For instance, suppose I wanted to write a 1 to modbus address 40500.  Where and when is this called?  In Gcode? fixed parameters?, macro's???

2) The best source for an ATC router spindle (new).  I have researched HSD, Columbo, and Perske.  I have found a 5hp ISO30 cone Perske ATC spindle to be the least expensive at about $5500.  Any body know of any sources or other brands that have good performance but a lower cost?  I am not locked to a HP or a Spindle specification if any one knows alternatives.  I would like to further explore my options.

Thanks a lot for the help so far!

Jeremy

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General Mach Discussion / General Q's about Mach3 and AD sureservo drives and smooth stepper

« on: May 04, 2008, 11:56:33 PM »

Hello All.
I have been lurking for quite some time.  Have combed the forums as well as many other sites that offer information to the use of Mach3 and automation direct sure servo's.  I have used the sure servo product in the past for different applications and have found the product solid and consistent, and they have good support.

I intend to build a home brew CNC router first for toying with, second for generating extra income, and third just to do it.  It will be like any other CNC router with 3 axes.  My main goal above the obvious, is high speed.  I saw several videos of machines with "smooth stepper" boards and they are very fast.  Faster than those of other driver boards, from what I can tell.  I intend to have rapids in the neighborhood of 2000-3000 ipm.  I want to make this machine as close to a professional CNC router as possible, in terms of speed.  I realize the cutting speeds are related to many components, especially the router spindle motor, and the material/cutting load.  I plan on designing a rotary 8 pos tool changer carosel, and using an additional AD sureservo axis and utilizing the onboard internal 8 position indexer.  I will need a some form of breakout board to allow for more inputs and outputs than the parallel port can provide.  I intend on using a PLC if necessary to handle any logic that may be needed.  I also believe there is a speed limitation of the parallel port also. I have experience using the MODBUS protocol with sureservo drives, and I see Mach 3 can also communicate using MODBUS.  Can you guys here that have actually put the wheels in motion help a semi-newbie out?

What interface between Mach3 and the sureservo drives would best fit my needs? (smooth stepper? is it available to the public, as of this message?)
What communication protocols are reccommended?

These are videos of machines I have planned on modeling, in regards to speed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaG3pd8xuWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG8zG7HGClA&feature=related

As a side note, I have a good bit of experience with professional level CNC routers such as Biesse, Komo, Weeke.  I know how a big boy works, I just want to make a hobby machine function similarily in regards to speed and tool changing capabilities.

Thanks in advance to any one that can help out with info.

Thanks,
Jeremy