Machsupport Forum
General CNC Chat => Show"N"Tell ( Your Machines) => Topic started by: poppabear on December 28, 2008, 02:56:07 PM
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Greetings,
I am in the design phaze of a 5 axis Mill (Trunion 3+2), control system, with controls for a Swap Arm type "Hot Swap" ATC, and pallet changer.
I am using Five 1KW AC servos, an ADC DL205 on TCP modbus (9 slot base, ECom module, CTRIO to run 2 accessory PLC driven [independant of mach] small servos for the ATC, Analog Module with 8 in/4 out, 96 inputs, 64 outputs), Motion with a Smooth Stepper, 3hp VFD and motor. Machine will be targeted at running on single phaze 220.
I will add controls for a Pallet Changer, swarf convayor, internal lights, coolent, auto oilers, basically all the do-dads that I can think of.
I have the DL205 in a 485 Drop network with the 5 SureSurvo Drives and Durapulse VFD for indepth and high end Modbus control over parameters and funcitons that can be
viewed or changed on the fly from a Diagnostic screen in mach3. The Screen will be my "Night Vision" Flash Screen, and will be using Peter Homanns ModIO pendant kit with a custom plugin I am working on.
I am hoping to get the control system completely finished for the 2cd Annual MCSE, I have some "Sponsors" for the build and some "Helpers" but would gladly take more if you wish to contribute. I was Ultimatly looking for a 3 (or if possible a 5axis trunion type VMC) axis VMC with a burnt control, one that already had a "Arm Type" ATC on it. But, cant find one that is available for "Haul off or donation". So, If time allows I may try and slap together some kind of frame, and perhaps do a "Non-Shrink" concrete or Grout pour for the stucture (the Epoxy/Granite stuff from the CNC zone is not developed enough yet for use).
If any of you would like to contribute to the build let me know, I am also looking for a Sponsor for the:
BallScrews/Nuts/Jornals (i.e. Hiwin, Nook, etc.), and perhaps one for the Metal Framing materials and other odds and ends.
I will REALLY, REALLY be pushed for time, (I will be pushing it just to get the control completely done), so if any of you would like to cut some mechanical parts/pieces let me know. I know it is not much, but I can and will list you as contributors to the build (and what you contributed). Digital Machinist Magazine said they will try and get there to cover the event, so you can get some publicity for your work..........
Current corporate Sponsors:
1). Automation Direct, Inc.
2). CNC4PC, Inc.
3). Homan Designs, Inc.
4). Vectric, Ltd.
5). S S Systems, LLC
Current individual Sponsors/contributers/helpers:
1). "Aksess" from CNCzone (Dewight in Athens TN, will be contributing some Sheet metal and Plazma table work, for the control "Head" enclosure, and other odds and ends)
2). Jason "zeolous" Blake will be doing some "Fixing/improving" of the NightVision screens.
I will post pictures as the Control (and machine if possible), as it evolves, below is a screen shot of the Main Panel Layout done in Rhino, and the VFD enclosure as well.
I should be getting the Cabnet pics up very shortly, doing the main wiring now and it will be finished, and ready for IO wiring then.
Scott
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Sounds cool. Just a couple of questions.
How are you planning on handling the 5 axis cutter comp and tool length offset? Mach does not handle this yet. Just talked to Brian about it this morning and it is not going to happen any time soon. I have been hoping for 5 axis support for years. then there is the problem with the cam. There is still not a reasonably priced 5 axis cam package.
chad
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Mine is handled in the CAM, I use OneCNC XR2 with 4-5th axis module, so it is no problem. They have come out with XR3, but I have not yet upgraded.......
My CAM was around 10K
Scott
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Basic Power Circuits are done on the Panel, Just came in is the VFD Drive, Spindle motor, reactor, RF filters, and associated MC/CBs for the Spindle.
Next step is to do the Control Wiring.
Still left to do is:
1). ADD a Smooth Stepper and CNC4PC BOB
2). ADD New Computer with the "Night Vision Screens"
3). I/O hook up
4). PLC programming
5). Custom Plug ins for this system
Then Phaze two begins..........
scott
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Looks Great! Very professional looking cabinet. I'm going to be watching with great interest. My next victim is an ARTRAN 5 axis machine. It is a gantry type with C and B rotary axes. It has a winerack type tool changer and is totally enclosed. When I get a little farther along I'll post some pictures. First things first....I need to get my lathe sorted out.
Do you have any pics of the iron?
Monty
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Gotta build the Iron, ground up.............. Unless someone want to give me free Iron................
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Looks like you've got a nice machine planned out, Scott. Do you have the machine designed out in cad? Whats the footprint going to be?
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Still doing the layout mostly still in the general "Concept" Phaze for the physical machine. It will probably be around the size of a VF4 Haas or so...........
I will be lucky just to get the control system finished, before my dead line in April, I hope to bother someone else to build the structer for me.
I am NOT a welder or Sheet metal guy, so I will pester some folks who are and see if they want to contribute some labor........... why, do you wanna help? :)
Scott
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I'm afraid all my time is booked for another 6 months. Hopefully 6 more after that.... if I'm lucky. I'll take all I can get in this economy. April eh??? Heck, it's almost Feb! Won't be long till the carriage turns into a pumpkin! Oh well, I'm sure you'll get it done, though. Deadlines are meant to be broken. :) What usage do you have in mind for the machine? What do you estimate the final cost to be? 10-15K? 15-20K? Above 20? What kind of machining accuracy are you shooting for? Half thou? Couple tenths? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just interested.
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Really, I am just doing the Control ONLY for the Show in April, I will try to hang it on some kind of DEMO machine, the machine may well be just a basic frame just to have a point to mount stuff too. It is really just to show what kinda highend control stuff can be done.
for me to do the REAL machine, that would probably take a Year of so, MOSTLY cause like you, I work when there is work, and dont have deep pockets.......Money is the main show stopper, like most independants I think.......
I will pester other Vendors to see if they want to contribute stuff like ball screws, metal ectera, so they could get some publicity, and I could get some parts........ but what ever, I will build as I can, when I can............
Scott
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Looking very neat Scott, you need a better camera though ;D
I like the breakouts for the drives, should have bought some for mine instead of being a miserable bas%^$d then again Rockwells prices are not so good as AD's so I have a slight excuse
Hood
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:)
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Yup, looking good Scott.
Brett
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Just an idea Scott but you might be able to pick a Bridgeport BPC320H for not much money..It's a Horizontal with 300mm pallets and full B axis. The early ones had Fanuc 6 and Fanuc DC brush motors and were built by Yasda in Japan so are very good quality.
They have a pallet changer and some had an optional swing arm tool changer with up to 99 tools.
It's not the Vmc trunion 3+2 you were after as it would have to be C on top of B with the Bridgeport and maybe have the C with the pallet change on it or just use the pallet change it comes with and have one station for standard milling and the other for 5 axis machining .
Probably a bad idea but just thought I'd add something to the discussion!!
http://www.vemu.com/usate_uk.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1sCwiQ3JBk&feature=channel_page
http://cgi.ebay.ca/BRIDGEPORT-BPC-320H-Horizontal-Machining-Center_W0QQitemZ260244651803QQihZ016QQcategoryZ12584QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
John.
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Thanks for the Tip, I do appreciate it, but I am in the US, and the Ebay site wants far, far more than I can do.........
I would even settle for a Bedmill VMC that has Arm type ATC, Large or Small (that a 1kw servo can be used on), and I will do my own trunion if I have to. My hope was to find something with a trashed control that the guy would let me haul it darn thing out of his shop
for nothing, OR, real cheap. This is for the Convention ultimatly......... Realistically, this year I will probably only be able to show the control system. Mabey by next year I will have found a machine and have the "Full Package" showable.
scott
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Sounds great Scott...there seems to be very few peoples doing 5 axis with Mach so will be nice to see how it holds up to some of the slightly more expensive cnc controlls out there!!
John.
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Might want to consider what your post processing capabilities are before you design your machine. The expense of writing a post for a weird setup will end up eating up time and money.
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not really a problem at all since I use: "OneCNC XR2 Mill Expert, with the 4th and 5th axis module", I have used it on 4/5 axis machines for a while with mach no problems. I wrote the 4/5th axis Post for it as well, that I gave to OneCNC and released here as well for others who have this CAM.
"The expense of writing a post for a weird setup will end up eating up time and money."
Didnt cost me a dime, the user can tailor thier own post processor exteamly easy to do. Further Truion Table designed machines are not weird at all
they are very common, i.e. Haas, Mazak, Hurco etc. all have machines that you can add on a trunion table, or buy a machine that has a inbuilt truion
for dedicated 5 axis work.
scott
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Should have quoted the post in this thread I was referring too. Yes, stick with the trunnion type, its common and easy to modify a generic post!
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Hello again,
I am chasing a Unicorn, so I hope mabey one of you might know of where a source of them are........
What I need is 2 AFFORDABLE, (but NOT cheaply made), Rotary tables, with a 12" table, and adjustable back lash.
Prefable the same brand/make/model.
I am considering, the above verses, designing and making my own trunion from scratch....... NOT to thrilled about the
scratch trunion idea, but will consider it if pricing is to crazy.........
I WILL consider used, if in servicable, or rebuildable shape.......
Cabnet is comming along, will get some pics up, later after I finish the PLC to basic Drives/MCs and VFD wiring done. Got the main "Power Distribution" and AC power side done
last night, put all the wiring labels on, since it is in the base wiring layout phaze, it looks like a bunch of "Spiders on Crack" have attacked my cabnet...... hehehehe
Found some VERY, VERY cool little "Terminal block" sized relays, each Relay block has 6 releays on it with LED relay on indicators. They consume about the same space as the width/length of 8 standard 1 level terminal blocks!!! Ran into ONE gotch on them though, my Output modules in my PLC are Sourcing, and the Relays are sinking........ so, I can
still use them, but the LED for relay on, will not work the other way, and I cannt afford to swap to Sinking output modules, oh well.....
BTW: Is there anyone in or close to the Knoxville, TN (east TN), area that does "Sheet Metal" work, and would be willing to trade some work? I would buy the sheet metal. Would trade you Mach3 work (anykind), labor for labor. I need some boxes made, some complexity involved.
scott
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Have you thought of doing direct drive rotary tables..might be a cheaper way if you have to make your own..
The motor can be attached direct to the table face plate or a gear or pulley system can be used..
The Hermle trunion machines have this system now..they have gear drive on the tilt and a direct drive torque motor on the turn.
John
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Yes, I have thought of that, but my worries would be holding power under "continous" motion. I can add a brake for 4th, and 5th, but for continous operations the cutting torgues would be my concern. I would have to increase the power of the motor (cant go over 1kw at present, or gear it down with a pulley(s). I am trying to get away from as much backlash as I can, since that will be the killer on a trunion.......
If you get a chance to get a peek at the mechanicals and specs on the Hermle can you send pics and mechanical/electrical specs my way?
Thanks John,
Scott
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Hi Scott here is a link to the Hermle range of trunnion machines with some PDf manuals as well!
http://www.hermle.de/index.php5?146
It's not very in depth but i'm thinking you might get some help from the importer in your country..they are usually keen to help on these type of projects especially if they can benefit in any way..
Re the backlash issue, i'm thinking a good belt or gear set up would have almost zero backlash..i'm not sure if any can be dialed out on mach3!
John.
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Here is a You Tube link to a video of the Stage 1 build and test of my cabnet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcfzbLqG-VA
This is just the basic functionality: AC servos under mach/SS control, VFD Spindle, DL205 PLC on TCP for main IO control, Night Vision Flash screen.
The spiders are still on crack that are in my cabnet........ but it is just the basic Test the basics and make sure it works stage1......
scott
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Scott
A nice movie of a Mazak 5 axis trunnion machine with pallet changer..Ace screen layout too with machine simulation on the screen!
Would love to get a mach screen like this one!
Also noticed it has a travelling gantry for X Y Z too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CJIzKclDLk
John.
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Very interesting! nice work on the cabinet, mine looks a bit like the crack-smoking spiders actually fitted the wires. It was all neat, and I found a few corrections to do, and a few upgrades, and off it went.
I'll be keeping an eye out to see this one up and running, good luck :)