Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: SimonD on April 08, 2008, 05:15:36 PM
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Hi,
I have just purchased a Boxford 160TCL and will convert it to MACH3, I have had a read through numerous posts on here be people who have already converted either a 160 or 125TCL and was wondering if anybody has a wiring diagram or any documentation they could let me have?
The machine has an automatic turret and I understand that MACH3 can control that quite nicely although I have not found out how yet!
I will probably use Gecko drivers for this conversion as I have been caught out with low voltage driving of steppers on my milling machine.
Has anybody converted the switch panel to run using the ModIO ?
Also any things to watch out for or gotchas would be appreciated!
Thanks
Simon
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Simon,
No real gotchas, it is a straitforward conversion.
Fit new, modern steppers - size 23, 4 wire is easiest.
Break out board with spindle speed control e.g. CNC4PC C11, if needed.
5V dc for an active breakout board.
24V dc for emergeny stop circuit (and limit switches and safety interlocks if needed)
Power supply for Geckos, 28V works, more volts for higher speed.
If your turret has tool position monitor, you will need more I/O. Not realy needed, you can use it open loop easily.
Smoothstepper is looking promising for more speed and lots of I/O for panel switches.
Ian
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Ian,
Thanks for the reply...
Out of interest what is wrong with the standard steppers? a Stepper is a Stepper isn't it? I understood they have 400 step/rev steppers as standard which I would imagine are better than 200 step/rev?
I hadn't heard of the Smoothstepper, it does look very promising!
How is the tool position monitor done? what do I need to look for when it arrives (hopefully tomorrow!)
Do I need to create my own emergency stop circuit or can I use an existing one from the machine?
Is there anything I need to retain in the machine or is it simply best to replace it all?
Thanks
Simon
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Simon,
" I understood they have 400 step/rev steppers as standard which I would imagine are better than 200 step/rev?"
As I understand it, the circular steppers fitted were unipolar driven at 1/2 step, hence your 400 steps/rev. Modern motors are mostly square and can be driven bipolar in microstep mode, mostly 8 or 10, so you get upto 2000 steps/rev. Microstepping gives a much more reliable system at low revs 0-300 rpm.
"How is the tool position monitor done? what do I need to look for when it arrives (hopefully tomorrow!)"
I don't know - at a guess, binary read LEDs.
"Do I need to create my own emergency stop circuit or can I use an existing one from the machine? "
Design your own to link to your new sy6stem.
"Is there anything I need to retain in the machine or is it simply best to replace it all?"
Spindle drive card and you can probably use the 24v DC power supply to start with.
A gotcha I forgot. If you replace the steppers, get the shaft diameter the same as original.
Ian
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Ian,
Many thanks, all good info.
It feels like Christmas Eve here at the moment ;D
I can't wait until it arrives, I have been told it was picked up today so should be here tomorrow.
I have no doubt I will be asking for information on how to wire up the E-Stop. I have been reading good things about the CNC4PC stuff and am on the waiting list for a SmoothStepper. When it arrives I will start the shopping list!
Thanks again
Simon
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Well, She arrived this morning!
It would appear that the steppers are bipolar. I say that not because of any marking on them but because the driver board is using the "Easy-Power" GS-D200S bipolar driver!
Currently nothing works and I can't work out why. The light comes on and everything seems ok but nothing is working.
There is a "Power Reset" button. Should this light be on or off? currently it is on.
The inverter is a Lenze 534 E3. I am currently trying to work out how to test if it is working. I have checked all the fuses and all seems ok.
My current thinking is that the "Power Reset" light shouldn't be on but isn't resetting correctly.
Thanks
Simon
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Simon,
Usually, when my 125 won't start it is because I have forgotten to twist the emergency stop switch to reset it!
Enjoy your new toy and this group likes pictures, resize them to 640 x 480.
Ian
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Turns out it has double interlocked guards with 2 microswitches on each guard. Whilst opening one of them I noticed no "click". I disconnected the microswitches and checked them and sure enough one of them is faulty. I reconnected the one which was ok and bypassed the other one and fired her up.
She worked a treat, manual operation only. I can jog it on the buttons, run the spindle both ways and rotate the turret.
Now I have to clean her up a bit as she has obviously been sat for a while as you can see in the pics. Under the mild surface rust the guide ways look like new, you can still see the hand scraping marks.
Turns out it is a 1990 machine going by the date on one of the boards.
Does anybody know what the pin configuration is for the 37pin serial connection?
Here are some pics showing the condition as received.
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Simon,
I hope you will both be very happy ;D
Googling GS-200S gives this :-
http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/SGSThomsonMicroelectronics/mXvszty.pdf
After you have digested this information, this driver is step/dir and with a suitable BOB, can be driven with Mach from a PC. So you could just remove the Z80 interface card and with a bit of luck, link into thse drivers and the machine should work, all be it only in 1/2 step mode.
The 37(?) pin "serial" may be a connector for the 34 pin 1MHz bus that was an Acorn Archimedes interface. You might not need to work out the configuration, just remove it.
Great pictures - let us see more as you proceed with this. Can you measure the diameter of the steppers and see what size they are? They look a bit big for 23 size but it might be the angle you took the pictures.
Ian
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Ian,
The steppers are 57mm diameter. so yes, I think they are Size 23.
That PDF was what lead me to believe it was a bipolar driver. I have the manual for the Inverter now too thanks to Google.
I have just about stripped the cabinet now (writing down the wiring as I go!) Everything looks like it will clean up really nice. Most of the rust is very superficial.
Simon
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Having looked at the electronics and tried to remove the Z80 board, it looks like the two are interdependant. I am not sure it is worth the trouble!
So...
I have been thinking of getting the Gecko 201's for the X and Z axis. Is there any need to go to the 210? or better spec? Why would I want to select the microstepping? is it down to the limit of number of steps MACH3 can output, 25Khz??
The gecko drive seems a bit of overkill for the turret as the operation of it seems fairly dumb. It looks like "rotate clockwise for x degrees and the anti clockwise for y degrees which then stalls the stepper motor?
Is there a simpler cheaper solution I should be looking at for the stepper driver?
I see that CNC4PC do a specific breakout board for Geckos called the C11G ? I could't find any difference in the documentation, anybody got any idea what the difference is?
Simon
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Simon,
Shame about the Z80 card, it would have allowed you to get the machine running with Mach, without too much expense.
Unless you have a need for adjustable stepping rates the 201 will do fine. I went with the 203V because it is idiot proof :).
If you are going to use the turret, then although it is fairly simple to drive in software, the stepper still needs a good driver to avoid loosing steps and if you have a power supply for X and Z then you might as well use it to drive the turret. I now only use the tool plate, as in the video.
The C11G is buffered but not fully opto isolated, not needed for the Geckos as they are. If you want total opto isolation use the C11.
Ian
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Ian,
I will have another look at the stepper board over the weekend but when I just disconnected the Z80 board, the stepper board wouldn't even power up. The entire front panel is also connected to the stepper board and even that lost it's functionality.
If I had a wiring diagram then I might be able to figure it out but it isn't immediately obvious what is wrong. What I don't want to do is spend ages figuring it out only to find that the board packs up after a couple of months and I have to rip it all out anyway.
I got the lathe for a bargain price so I don't mind putting some money into it. I guess I could go for a 201 for the turret and 203V's for the main axis.
Reading the Gecko site, I did like the way the 203V's automatically transition from microstep to full step depending on the speed, that is a nice feature.
Does your machine have the Lenze inverter in it still? Mine has an odd board mounted onto the same plate as the inverter and it obviously has something to do with it but I can't work out what it does. I spent most of tonight trying to figure out the contactor wiring and how it switches the spindle direction. I'm still not sure I fully get it!
Simon
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Simon,
My Boxford had a GEC Gemini DC controller that failed, so I replaced it with one from BEEL:-
http://www.beel.ca/smcmanual.pdf
Your Lenze one should be very good quality and design. Have you found a manual for it? I don't think it will be an inverter, as they are used for AC drives and I think that yours is DC, have a look at the motor plate. The transformer looking device is a choke (an inductor), wired in series with the armature supply to slow the rise time of the current.
Assuming DC, it is not a simple mater to reverse it at speed. Just throwing a switch to reverse the voltage on the brushes will cause the back emf from the motor to be added to the applied voltage and will fail the motor and/or driver. Lots of amps will be gererated, which would cause arcing of the brushes and on any changeover relay. So, what is usually done is that at a reverse command, a relay drops out cutting the drive current to the motor and shorting the motor terminals with a low value, high wattage, braking resiistor. This brings the motor to a stop. Either a time delay or a motor voltage sensor is used to make sure it is stopped. It is then safe to start the motor in reverse with another relay. My 125 has the two relays mechanically interlocked to avoid forward and reverse being energised at the same time.
Your Lenze controller may be more inteligent and have all this built in so that it is only a matter of applying a control voltage to a forward or reverse terminal. It should also have terminals for speed control. This usually 0-10 volts DC with a centre tap so as to connect a 10K ohm variable resistor (pot). You can then use this voltage to power the speed control on the C11 card and the output from the card to the centre tap on the motor controller. If it is an AC drive, the inverter will have all this as standard and will be programmable by inputting various parameters via a keyboard.
Unless you must have rigid tapping or use a fixed die for threading, just use a pot to manually control the speed to begin with. If you want variable speed control from Mach, you need to replace the timing disc on the back end of the spindle with only one wide slot - see the Mach turning manual. You might be able to use the Boxford slotted opto switch.
Have fun!
Ian
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Ian,
Many thanks for all your comprehensive replies, it is much appreciated...
Mine is indeed a DC drive. I have the PDF manual for the drive from here...
http://akb.lenze.de/AKB-englisch/infopool.nsf/1429b1338a70e30b41256a2900343844/b347039433d8d32bc1256d880037c499/Body/M2/530_Speed_controllers_1202_EN.pdf?OpenElement
I have yet to digest the information though.
It is identical to the one in this post...
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,1645.0.html
Even the odd external board by Simpletron is the same.
I bit the bullet this morning and ordered 3 off 203V Geckos and a CNC4PC C11G BOB and while I was at it I ordered their C3 - Index Pulse Card as it looked like is might do the spindle index and was cheap enough to add on just in case.
I figured the extra £15 for the peace of mind of the 203V against the 201 was worth it.
Do you use any of the original control panel on your boxford? Mine is a complex affair with a full PCB behind it with all sorts of components on it, I think it might be just easier to make a new panel!
Thanks
Simon
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Simon,
That Simplatrol board is probably the opto isolator for the spindle drive card and since you will have this on the C11G, it is not needed. Mach can be configured to send a contol voltage to change the motor direction with M05 and M03/04 and I assume that you could also detect that the motor has actuall stopped and then engage the chaneover relay.
I only use the start and emergency stop switches on my panel. You would need more I/O from either a second parallel port, serial port or SmoothStepper USB, to get all the switches to function.
The original steppers will probably function OK but the are old technology. I used 2 stack 23 size from Motion Contol Products.
Ian
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Ian,
Reading the Lenze manual seems to imply that the speed controller handles the slowing down and stopping of the drive during the changeover. I will have to see when the BOB arrives.
I have some 2 stack 23 size steppers from Motion Control Products on my mill. If the original ones on the Boxford are no good I will try them. I have been disapointed with the torque from them MCP steppers and have even installed a 3 stack one on the Z axis of the mill but I suspect it has more to do with the 24v power supply and the StepMasterNC controller. I look forward to seeing what Geckos can do! My StepMasterNC controller couldn't even make a single stack stepper turn my rotary table with any reliability!
Simon
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Well, the mechanics have cleaned up nice!
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Simon.
Looking realy smart! Where are the go faster stripes? :)
Ian
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Does anybody have a wiring diagram for a Lenze DC spindle?
There are 5 wires to it...
I know what 3 of them are for. Two are for the main motor connection and can be reversed to reverse the direction, the third is the ground connection but there are also 2 yellow wires which were originally connected to the guard switches and e-stop button.
I can only imagine that they are an electromechanical brake? I have tried shorting them together but they don't seem to do anything, presumably they need a voltage to be applied? But what voltage?
Thanks
Simon
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Simon,
I think it is an over temperature cutout for the motor, hence it would be in the estop circuit. I just left it unconnected, as I was not going to overload the motor.
Ian
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Ian,
Thanks for the info. I am trying to work out the motor reversing circuit needed but am not sure I understand the manual, it goes on about electrodynamic braking and tells you the size of the resistor needed but the circuit diagrams are unreadable to me.
If you have the time could you take a look at the attached pdf and let me know if you understand it? They don't seem to have bothered to label anything in the wiring diagrams and I haven't a clue as to what to do.
Thanks
Simon
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Simon,
Have you had the motor running? You will then get an idea of how long the motor takes to stop. The controller has no inbuilt braking system. Putting two high amp rated changeover relays between the driver board and the motor is the way to solve it, if either one is off, then a braking resistor is across the motor terminals and will give you the braking time. This value can then be used by Mach to delay a signal (e.g. via a solid state relay) to the coils of the fwd/reverse relays. As I said, my TCL was fitted with twin changeover contactors with a mechanical interlock. The safest but complicated way is to measure the voltage on the braking resistor and when it is zero, it is then safe to change the motor diection. The wiring diagram is just as difficult for me to understand (I am a simple soul :)). It is lacking in details deliberately and as I understand it, all those relays are just to do what I have just described. Anyone out there know any better?
Ian
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Ian,
Yes, I have had the motor running and can vary the speed using a potentiometer wired into the speed controller.
When I feed the full 10v reference from the speed controller back into it, the motor it "hunts" as though it can't do full speed.
upto about 8v and it is ok and varies nicely with the input voltage.
The time taken to slow down is too long really so I would like to wire up some kind of braking. I am having trouble visualising the changeover relays you describe. I have attached a pic of the contactor which is present at the moment.
The contactor flips the direction nicely too so all I need to do is somehow get it to stop before I energise the contactor. There is a manual switch on the top of it and it reverses the direction ok but it is a bit violent!
Thanks
Simon
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Hello Simon.
I have exactly the same machine, a Boxford 160 TCL with a 8-station-turret. I have a look at the Lenze-Spindle motor, its the same as yours. The two yellow wires are for the over temperature cutout, i don't use this two one. Look here:
(http://www.Dietmar-werner.de/Lenze-2-Kabel-Bearbeitet.JPG)
I'll do the motor reversing with a switch for cw an ccw, first i try to do this with a relay for cw and ccw, but i can't get it to work. The switch is this one
(http://www.Dietmar-werner.de/Drehschalter.JPG)
Regards from Germany, Dietmar.
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Dietmar,
Cool, thanks for the reply. Last night I got a copy of the wiring diagram of the 160TCL thanks to a kind gentleman who is retrofitting a 125TCL but for some reason has the 160 manual! The diagram indeed confirms that the two yellow wires are a thermal cutoff for the spindle. I may well wire it in as it is there but will leave it disconnected until everything else is working.
I will try controlling the spindle with relays first and report here how I get on. The wiring diagram shows how the relays on the existing board work so I will try and replicate those first. The guy I got the manual off had problems trying to control the spindle using a CNC4PC breakout board which doesn't inspire confidence but I have ordered it now so will try it when it arrives.
Typically, now that I have the wiring diagram it doesn't look that hard to wire in the original controller but as the Geckos have arrived, I may as well use them now!
Also, interestingly, the boxford 190VMC mill seems to use the same controller as it is shown in the manual as used for both and that is my next project after the lathe is finished!
Simon
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Simon,
Great that you got a diagram, it should solve most of your problems. I have not seen a relay like the one shown. Spindle speed problems, unless there is a fault on the drive card, can usually be cured by going through the setting up procedure in the manual. Normally it is the IR compensation trimpot that gives erratic running.
My 125 is a lot older than your 160, so I have to start from scratch with the motor control circuit. I will send you a PM of the schematic. It would be interesting to see if I have got close to how Boxford did it.
If we cannot solve your spindle speed control here, Arturo Duncan at CNC4PC is very quick at replying to emails.
Ian
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Ian,
Typically the wiring diagram is not the same as my machine! I spent this evening tracing the diagram to look at the relays only to look at the board and find that there aren't enough relays on it! It is very close, I must just have a different revision of the board.
The speed controller might have been "tweaked" by boxford to make the range 0-8v even though it ouputs a 10v reference. It would explain why it hunts when I put anything over 8v in it as it will be trying to overspeed (if that is a word!)
I think I have worked out the relay... It is a mechanically latched 4 pole switch. Energise A1-A2 and it switches one way, Energise B1-B2 and it switches the other way. It is used to cross over the speed controller output to change the direction. I just need to feed 24v into either the A1 or B1 terminals to get the direction change, hopefully this should be trivial with the CNC4PC board.
Does MACH3 turn the M3 & M4 output off again? I think I only need a 24v pulse to pull the changeover relay one way or the other.
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Just to go back a few posts - to the 5 wires to the motor - the two spare wires could well be for a large ballast resistor for the braking. I have one on my inverter (although three phase) - the principle will be the same. I understand it cuts the back e.m.f. and stops damage to the control electronics.
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Jim,
I first thought it might be something to do with braking as the original motor seemed to stop quite quickly and never really coasted as it does at the moment. However it appears to be temperature cut off for the motor and is confirmed on the wiring diagram as it is shown as connected to the e-stop/guard circuit which is where the wires went on my machine.
Thanks
Simon
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Simon.
You asked :-
"Does MACH3 turn the M3 & M4 output off again? I think I only need a 24v pulse to pull the changeover relay one way or the other."
As I understand it M3, M4, M5 are individually persistant on the assigned parallel port output pins, so say your G code sends M5 to stop the spindle, it stays stopped (active)untill an M4 or M3 is sent.
Ian
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Ian
"Does MACH3 turn the M3 & M4 output off again? I think I only need a 24v pulse to pull the changeover relay one way or the other."
As I understand it M3, M4, M5 are individually persistant on the assigned parallel port output pins, so say your G code sends M5 to stop the spindle, it stays stopped (active)untill an M4 or M3 is sent.
So does M5 need a sepparate pin? or does M5 turn off the M3 and M4 pins?
Thanks
Simon
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Simon,
M5 does not need a pin it just turns off the M4 or M5 pin.
Ian
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Attached are my current 2 options for the relays... I can't decide which is better...
The first one uses the original contactor and 2 new relays, the second, just 2 new relays.
Can anyone see any benefits to either? The only benefit I can see at the moment to using the original contactor is it frees up a set of relay contacts to use for a pair of direction LED's or to connect to the speed controller enable line which was just bridged in the original.
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Simon,
Simple is best for reliability and troubleshooting. You can always add auxiliary contacts to your chosen contactors.
Ian
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I have now got the steppers running on the 203v's and am busy trying to set up MACH3.
I calculate the steps per mm to be 1000 which gives me a max speed of 1500 mm/min, MACH3 does not let me go any faster than that using 25khz kernel, should I change the kernel speed? The motors haven't started to complain about the speed yet?
Something doesn't seem right though, I am not used to being able to max out the speed before the steppers start to complain!
The only one which complained a bit was the turret!
What speeds should I expect to get from this little machine?
Thanks
Simon
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I run mine at 2250/min X&Z @ 45Kz the turret runs at 500.
Graham.
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Ah, thanks, that is good to know that the machine is capable of those kind of speeds. I will play with the kernel speed when I have the rest of it working. I will also post some new pics when the wiring looks a bit tidier!
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Simon,
I run at 2532 mm/min using 45kHz and 24 volt power supply. More to come when I fit my 50 volt supply.
Ian
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I have just about finished the lathe now and I thought I would update the post to complete the information, just in case anybody is interested...
In the end I used 3 Geckos, a CNC4PC C11G breakout board, a CNC4PC relay board and CNC4PC index board.
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I added Home/Limit switches to both axis and used a Cubloc 220 PLC to run the front panel switches via Modbus.
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Simon,
Well done! You put a lot of effort into it and have made a very competent conversion. More bits for your helecopters?
Ian
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Ian,
Thanks. Yes I plan to make more helicopter bits, but first I have the VMC to convert. With all I have learnt from this conversion, it should be a lot easier! although the toolchanger is rather complex.
Simon
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Hi
I'm using a c11 rev3 baord and am finding the markings
a little confusing, being a machinest & not electronics type.
please let me know if I have this right.
on the output market X8
function terminal marking
X step = 2
X dir = 3
com = ground
Y step = 4
Y dir = 5
com = ground
Z step = 6
Z dir = 7
com = ground
thanks
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Nemachinest,
You are correct with your connections. Bear in mind that the Rev 3 board does not work well with some drive cards, which are you using? Send an email to Arturo Duncan at CNC4PC, he is very helpfull.
Ian
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Simon,
I like the looks of the switches. Beautiful machine too.
Can you give me a link to switch that you used ?
Much appreciative,
RC
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I used Omron, D2HW-C201H
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=8774480
They don't like being ignored by Mach3 and run into though, the plunger stays in! Mind you at £1.70 each they are cheap enough to replace.
Thanks
Simon
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I added Home/Limit switches to both axis and used a Cubloc 220 PLC to run the front panel switches via Modbus.
Hi Simon I have pretty much same panel but not clever enough to made use of it is there any way you can find a minuet and show the way how? Please. Bet there's number of this panels have not been used .
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Hi,
Yikes... That was 9 years ago... Sorry I haven't had the machine for 7 or 8 years and my memory is not what is once was...
As you can see from the pictures all the switches are directly accessible via the pins on the board and can be then wired into something to read them... The same goes for the LEDs on the switches...
If I was going to do it again, I would not bother as after all the work, I never used the panel in real world situations.
Good luck
Simon
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Hi Simon
Sorry my bad, didn't look at the date :-)
I see buttons as row and columns available on connector was wondering if you have code as Im not sure if able to integrate this controller to mach. Second thing is how you integrate feed-rate override, with surely useful knob to have :-) ? Is only if you remember :-)
Thanks a bunch
Ilia
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I don't recall doing it as a matrix of buttons but may well have.... Many PLC's do allow that kind of input.
The CubLoc chip I used does have ModBus integrated which is how I got it to talk to Mach3
As for the rotary switch you can put a bunch of resistors across the poles of the switch to give you a stepped voltage depending on where the switch is rotated to. This can then be put into the PLC and decoded into a percentage and fed via ModBus.
The feedrate knob is a usefull addition but in all honesty is the only bit worth bothering with (apart from the e-stop!!)