Machsupport Forum
General CNC Chat => Show"N"Tell ( Your Machines) => Topic started by: chad on May 05, 2006, 12:34:52 AM
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AAAH The lighter font color is much better!! thanks! Now if you guys could do a X,Y,Z,B,C verson for my little project all would be right in the universe :)
Benny: I know i could change it in screen 4 but what can i say, i am lazy ;)
Here is a pic of it on my mach machine ( in progress) with MachBlueLight
chad
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Why so small of a machine ;)
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Chad,
That machine looks awesome.... Do you have any build log or details on it ?
It looks like it would just about fit in my garage !
Great to see the MachBlue screenset in the picture too....
Cheers
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That machine looks awesome.... Do you have any build log or details on it ?
I have to agree. It looks the biz.
I'm assuming it's for making PCB's? Although maybe a little over engineered? ;)
Great stuff.
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HI guys, sorry for the delay. Been very busy both personally and working on the project.
The mill is going to be a 5 axis mill for cutting medium density fiberboard (mdf), foam, and tooling board. The plan is to carve positive bucks to make molds for fiber glass and carbon fiber race car parts, mostly air foil elements, under-trays, wings, body's. My partner owns a couple of Formula -s cars and we are planning on producing updated body parts for these cars.
The mill is 10' x 12' x 48" inches X,Y,Z respectivally. Currently it is using rutex drives for the x,y,z,b,c and it probably won't be too long until we upgrade to ~1k range ac servo. All of the drive reduction are from verry nice alpha gear planetary gear reducers. We are currently going to be using a 3.5 hp router, will also probably be upgraded to an actual spindle down the road.
So far i have the X,Y,Z running and things are looking good. The X&Y are capable of 600 ipm rapids and the z is good to 250 ipm. All of the linear slides are IKO or Thompson. X and Y are 45mm rails and the z is 25mm. Z is ball screw driven and the x and y are belt(45mm). Without the wood table it weighs 2900lbs. the moving Gantry with y,z,c,b will be around 1300lbs.
I have built lots of stuff in the past but nothing so big and heavy, Turing out to be a lot of work --- and fun ;)
Here are a couple of other pics for you to look at, if you have any other questions give me a hollar.
chad
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Nice looking machine Chad, please keep the pictures coming, its a real inspiration.
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WOW!!!! , that about all I can say...and that doesnt quite do it..
Art
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Thanks art, it has been a real challenge.
Just thought i would post a pic. The first spirals !! 24"
from left to right they are 300 ipm, 250, 200.
The left one has some wiggles at 300. Not surprising considering i haven't trammed anything yet, the table supports haven't been leveled, the servo motor tuning would be described best as just barley working, and my precision pen holder consisting of a foot and a half piece of aluminum C-clamped to the z with -the electrical tape precision pen holder attachment ;)
The z is a 8x8 steel tube and it makes a great megaphone with the pen doing it's best impression of fingernails on a chalk board.
It was almost UN barrable, but i was having fun watching it draw the circles while standing on the side support. The machine didn't even know i was there! HHm that gives me an idea! i should weld a chair to the side so i can ride along while it cuts. Or maybe not.
Chad
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If your Z axis tubes are still open you could add some dampers inside. You need 4 smaller tubes wrapped in something like scotchdamp then space them out so there is about 1/8" to 1/2" space all around them. You then fill the space with some form of grout. I think Philadelphia resins has special stuff just for this purpose. It shouldn't add too much more weight and should cut down resonance a lot. The is more info on the MIT website about this if you are interested.
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That is a great suggestion, i will look into it!
I still have to add in the C and B head. That will add about 130 lbs to the end and that should help as well. Most of the noise was because I was driving the pen tip to the plywood too hard. The other issue was the aluminum bar that I was using could flex in the x and y direction and added a springiness. Basically i made an old stile cnc controlled phonograph. The z and everything it's mounted too are very rigid and hopefully when the BC head is mounted it will squash most of it.
I guess i won't know until i start cutting wood.
Chad
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Chad, how is progress going? I want some pictures of some stuff you have made with your machine.
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Hi Yenneb, So sorry for the delay. We have cnc'd out our knee mill and i have been making stuff on that. As well as getting used to the g-rex and mach-4. I have played with the plug in mach 3 version but haven't made the switch. I will post some pictures soon of the Knee mill .
As for the big mill it has been in limbo for the last month and a half but i got the power supply finally done and I had it moving today. I am going to spend all day tomorrow tuning and tweaking the thing and i will take some recent pictures. and upload them this weekend. The big mill is going to be full steam ahead starting this week .
Chad
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Hey, Some more pics. I will take some more this week.
These pictures show more of the machine. I have been getting it going this last week and hope to get it dialed in and cutting in the next couple of days.
The big "box around the machine is our attempt at keeping the dust from going everywhere. I finally got around to tidying up the power supply and cleaning up some loose ends. I will put some more up in a couple of days.
Chad
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Just a couple more...
Chad
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Chad,
Was it neccessary to use what ever size box tubing that is? I am no machine builder and i understnd the concept of build it right once, but in your opinion would it be safe to use 2x3 box with either a 1/8 or 1/4 wall thickness?
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We wanted as little flex as as is possible. Tubing is 4x4,4x6,2x2,8x8 and all is 1/4 thick.
I weigh about 175 and with the machine on and holding position i can only get about .01 flex in any of the axes pushing as hard as i can.
The more steel The less flex, more mass less chatter. At Least that is what we are hoping for. If the machine was just for light foam then yes it is about 85% overbuilt. MDF and dense tooling board isn't light and needs something that is pretty ridged, especially with the x down 36" . If it isn't strong a 100 ipm cut in 3/4 mdf is going to get a lot of flex in the z. The head and the z weigh just under 300 lbs and some test cuts were smooth as butter at ~100 ipm. Not only that but this machine is capable of 550 ipm rapids. If not strong accel and de-cell alone would cause considerable flexing, the gantry weighs around 1300 lbs. Also figure a 4'x8'x3' block of mdf weighs arund 2400 lbs, we have to be able to put that on the table without the base and machine flexing and binding the slides.
Chad
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Chad you have an e-mail from me....
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Hi Chad the machine looks perfect ,
It will help us with the inspiration to keep going with cnc learning .
Chad , can I post your pictures in different forum .(Like cnczone)
I would love that others people see this machine.
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Lvjtech: I would prefer the pics stay here ( one less forum to answer questions on) but feel free to link to here. Also thanks for the kind words it has been a challenge for my partners and I.
Krymis: I will look for your email, I get ~ 120 emails a day in that address and it is easy to loose one.
We got 2 and a half inches of rain at the shop last night in 45 min. There was 1.5 inches of standing water in the shop, i was there till midnight shop vacing water out ;(
Chad
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Ya think you could fund one of my projects?
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JDolecki, lol ;)
After this project i would be lucky if i can get my partners to fund a pizza and beer night :)
Chad
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Chad,
Amazing machine,
Did you mount the linear rails directly on the square tubbing? how did you make sure the surface was straight enough and flat enough as to the rails not to take the shape of the tubbing (crooked)
Keep up the good work
Regards
Fernando
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Well that is a good question.
First I started with the y-z plate and mounted that to the rail trucks then i bolted the rails to the tube, this auto-magically aligned the rails to each other based on the mount plate. I then slid the plate down and tack welded the support bars as i went. As for the bars to the beam i started with the highest grade steel i could find, i then torqued the bolts to 80 foot lbs. The rails are 45mm hardened steel,very strong and ridgid. I was hoping the rails would make the beam conform to them, i think it worked. It travels very smooth with no apparent binding. If the rails have some hi or low spots because of beam fluctuations i should be able to shim it out. I am only trying to hold a couple of hundredths tolerance, there will be much more slop in the later fiberglass process on the parts.
Chad
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Can we see some closer pictures of the workings of the 4th and 5th axis.
Tanx
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Any new pictures of that monster running?
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I will be cutting some stuff this week. I will bring the cam down and try to get some pictures.
Chad
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it would be great if you could take some videos too ;)
Regards
Fernando
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Chad this is an amazing accomplishment. I am proud of you.
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LOL , Thanks
It has been quite the project. Version one turned out ok. Still only doing 3 axis work. This winter we should be getting into the 5 axis stuff. We are saving money for mastercam . Also this winter I am going to rebuild the gantry and design a new much more rigid c and b head.
Chad
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Hi, Well i promised some pics last week but the big mill broke. The Milwaukee Router that we were using for the spindle gave up the ghost. We have ordered a HSD 4 horsepower spindle and another baldor vfd for it. The spindle should arrive tomorrow than i am going to fit it to the machine. For right now i am going to remove the c and b axis head, the new spindle won't fit in that one. I am have started on version two of the head for the new spindle.
Anyhow here are some misc pics. Including our mach controlled knee mill and the new toy, A Haas TL1 .
I have also included some pics of the first part off of the lathe. It is the knee mill power-drill table height atpto-rama nipple. Nothing fancy but it works and i don't have to crank so much ;)
Chad
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OOps! NOw with 100% more picture goodness.
Chad
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Some more
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yet more!
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One more
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Hi Chad,
Any news or updates? I didn't notice if you mentioned where you were located, but if you don't mind??? ;D
Mike
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I am in Denver, CO
I have lived a couple of other places but Denver is the best.
Chad
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Thanks Chad,
I sent you an email earlier and would like to give you a call sometime.....if that's ok??
Mike
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Cleaned out some pics from my cam.
Making chips!
These are from a day of machining some parts. Looks like snow, scratchy snow. ;)
The other are from a crazy jig i had to do in order to drill some holes in the end of bar that is part of my new spindle mount for the big mill.
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Here are pics of the finished spindle mount for the big mill. I should be able to get installed tomorrow and be cutting again by this weekend. YAY
Chad
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Good work Chad. ;) :) :o
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Chad is that spindle and Elti, E/C, or Colombo?
Mike
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None of the above. :D
It is a HSD.
http://www.hsdusa.com/eng/home.htm
Chad
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Got a new dust collector today. I have cobbled together a test foot and skirt. So far so good, Need to change the foot mount and figure out how to suspend the hose.
Chad
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Great to see you are like me. In the excitement you slap it together just to see how well it works.
I never worked out a good hose suspension system. Lots of elastic straps sort of did the job.
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Hi,
What a great job you have done. I have seen all the pictures. very nice machine. I request you please put some pictures of driving mechnism.
Thanks in advance
regard...Manjeey
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Chad have you [or did/do you] ever had any vibration with that super long z axis? I've got a machine w/ a similar setup, only have ~24" on the Z [which is a 6x6 .250 post] and I'm getting all kinds of vibrations from my spindle. I can't get it past ~9k rpm with a tool in it, before it starts vibrating the crapp outta everything.. [Which is no easy thing to do as my Gantry is a couple thousand pounds..] I'm thinking it has to do with harmonic's of my tube axis but I'm not entirely sure.. it could be my spindle, my tooling or my structure...
Curious..
Jerry
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I have never had any problems with "self resonance", in other words just running up to any spindle speed in free air. If you are having that problem I would suspect you have some sort of spindle balance problem. Try running it up with out any tooling in it and see if it does the same thing. If it does i would send the spindle back and have them re balance it. If it only does it with a tool in it, look for better tools.
Resonances are harmonics based if you get a bad one around 10k have you tried just pushing through it and going to 20k? also make sure your linear rails are solid and beefy and you have enough of a separation (on the yz mount) to make a sturdy z. There is no slop in my machine at all. I can grab the z and push in any direction with all i am worth and nothing clunks. I can flex things a couple of hundredths (my poor design in the y) but everything is tight.
If none of that helps then remember the old adage 'mass is your friend'. I was having a problem with cutting at about 250 ipm .750 deep in mdf. This is I found was the about the right feed for what i was doing but I was getting a oscillation while cutting (slip stick). My solution was to add 4 25lb blocks of lead to the end just above the spindle mount inside of the z tube. This got rid of almost all of the problem.
Please start a thread with lots of pictures. I would love to see your machine. There are not many BIG mach machines that i have seen pictures of..
Chad
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I've had it in just free air. I'm starting to think it's a spindle problem.. but I hope not... the month to get it repaired is just a bit too long.. I'm going to play with it a bit more tonight and see if I can identify where it comes and goes.. I guess approach it from no tool all the way through to full length tools and see what speeds and which tools excite it. I've had the spindle up to 18k a couple times and in some cases it helped.. in others I couldn't turn in down fast enough.. I've also noticed that w/ a larger dia tool [2" facing cutter] that it seemed to help the problem.. I've got to play w/ it a bit more.. and get a better feel for it.. I've been so busy at work that I haven't had time and now I can't remember all the way's I had checked it etc..
BTW, if you want to see a vid.. there's one on youtube under my same profile name.. It show's the machine facing the bed. My mill [or so I call it] is 10 x 20 w/ ~24" Z... I'm wanting more but my garage has a low ceiling so.. for now.. it's gonna stay at 24..
I may get a thread going to show it off.... if I ever find a spare second :)
Thanks alot sir!
Jerry
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Yeah Jerry, start that thread. I wonder, if your Z tube is sealed, could you fill it with water, adding weight and dapening some of the bad res. ? Maybe even sand?
Brett
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I will.. :) someday.. The tube is open at the bottom right now.. I've been toying w/ the idea of potting a second tube inside it w/ 80du urethane rubber [castable] and then if that doesn't kill it. adding lead or steel shot inside the inner tube.. I've got to do some testing first to figure out what is causing it and then attack it from there... it's only a 2.5hp but I should be able to take a 0.40" DOC x 1/4"SO cut at a couple hundred ipm w/ it.. I'd hope anyway.. I'll probably upgrade to a 7hp at some point but for now.. I gotta get this one working..
testing tomorrow..
Jerry
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chad any video or updates of your machine and other axis?
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Unfortunately no. I have been cutting LOTS of aluminum on my other machines and have been really busy. I am going to start going through the 5 axis head pretty soon and go over the drawings and get it back in the loop. I haven't even turned on that machine in months. :(
Chad
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I think it is like wine. Getting better all the time even if it's just sitting there. ;)
Brett
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machine looks great but got some basic questions for you.
I'm trying to do something similar (machining large molds and plugs)
-How did you picked up the required 10x12x4' machine work area?
except for aircraft part, I really cannot find any part enough large to require this size
Even if a part was big enough, with 5 axis it would be quite easy to create 2 molds to join together.
-do you have a cost breakdown somewhere you can share?
-why did you went with the "X axis motion" legs moving instead of fixed?
(aka why classic gantry over overhead gantry style)
thanks, math
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machine looks great but got some basic questions for you.
I'm trying to do something similar (machining large molds and plugs)
-How did you picked up the required 10x12x4' machine work area?
except for aircraft part, I really cannot find any part enough large to require this size
Even if a part was big enough, with 5 axis it would be quite easy to create 2 molds to join together.
-do you have a cost breakdown somewhere you can share?
-why did you went with the "X axis motion" legs moving instead of fixed?
(aka why classic gantry over overhead gantry style)
thanks, math
We were making parts for our F1000 race cars. The goal was to make a new body, so the dimensions were chosen for that. We have made wings, diffusers, and under trays. The under tray used most of the cutting area so we were glad that it it was that big.
Cost: ~30k
We went with the moving gantry design because the space required for a moving table, roughly twice that of a moving gantry would not fit in our shop.
Chaoticone: lol I have been slowly working on the drawings and we are working on version 2. Now We just mach to support the 5 axis kinematics. Brian ?? ;)
Chad
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Rich, Thanks for the kind words.
I certainly am not an engineer, although I did stay at a holiday inn last night. Any way this machine was a big learning experience for me.
I have been busy with cutting metal on the other machines but we are planning on getting back on the big one.
I have started penciling revisions for version 2 and should start getting them into solid works soon. We have a full office premium seat and I have yet to touch simulation or cosmos yet.
Assuming I can figure out the other modules I then have to try to translate engineer numbers into something I can get my head around. Hopefully I can simulate out some of the big gotchas before I actually build it this time.
All in all the damn thing works pretty well for a first version. The second has lots of changes. AC servos, smooth stepper, get the 5 axis working correct, stiffened up everything, way faster rapids, rack and pinion, on and on.....
Darn it, now you have me thinking. Ok so this is what I would think would be needed to simulate a resonance please don't laugh too hard and correct me me when I make a fool out of myself.
1) 3d model everything, assign mass properties- done
2) apply a static load to the tool bit ( to simulate cutting force) I have no idea how to start to figure out how much force it takes to cut through mdf at a given flute quantity-diameter, rpm, ipm, wood density, depth/ cutter engagement.
3) assign waveform oscillation (sin?) to tool bit ( to simulate two flute cutter going through mdf) lets say 24k rpm so that would be 24k*2/60=800hz? fundamental?
4) Watch the pretty animated graphics from cosmos, scratch head.
Chad
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chad have you made any progress? If not, pm me. I might have a buyer.
Mike