Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: bruno76 on February 29, 2008, 09:12:26 PM

Title: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on February 29, 2008, 09:12:26 PM
Sometimes MACH3 is starting the router on its own. I am afraid one day it will happens when I forgot to put the switch on OFF and when I change the bit.
I cannot figure out why it does that. I review all my settings and cannot find anything. That happens so far always when the controller is ON and after I did not touch Mach3 for 10-15Min. Is anybody have a suggestion?
Thanks,
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: Hood on March 01, 2008, 05:51:32 AM
You will have to give a bit more info, also I am presuming you are meaning the spindle starts on its own, or do you mean the axis start moving?
 If its the sindle then info on how it is normally ativated would help, ie is it a relay that switches it on, do you have a custom macro or use a brain for this? any other info you think might be usefull as well.
 Might also be an idea to attach your xml file and any brains or macros that you use for the spindle.
Hood
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bowber on March 01, 2008, 09:37:36 AM
If it's your spindle please please please replace the switch with a no volt dropout switch, spindles should ALWAYs be on one of these, even if the spindle is not started by Mach.
Imagine if you had a power cut, it goes dark (night) and you fumble around trying to get out of the workshop etc or your trying to find the spindle motor switch and then the power comes back on and your hands in the way. Or your not even in the shop when the power comes back on.
It has happened and will happen again.

For this reason the Mach manual recommends that you have a no volt dropout switch between the relay controlled by Mach and the motor.

Sorry if I sound a little over the top but I've seen it happen and I've had it happen on my pillar drill.

Regards
Steve
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 01, 2008, 04:07:14 PM
Hi Hood,
This is the spindle who start on its own and it is a relay who switch it on. Everything works fine except that scary thing
Here is the XML you requested enclosed.
Thank you so much.
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: kak on March 01, 2008, 06:10:50 PM
Bruno, I´ve been watching the instructions videos of Mach3 maybe 10 times because I´m trying to setup my machine, and the man talks about your problem and how to set it up, in one of the first videos. Nr2 or 3 i think.

Adam
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: Hood on March 02, 2008, 05:55:37 AM
Bruno,
 how do you normally start the spindle, is it  just with the screen button? I dont see anything wrong with your xml so I am wondering if there is a possibilty of your keyboard being noisy, is it a wireless keyboard? Have you tried a different keyboard.
Hood
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 02, 2008, 12:50:39 PM
Hi Hood,
No it is not a wireless keyboard and no I did not try another one but I will and get back at you.
Thanks,
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 02, 2008, 12:52:40 PM
Hi again,
Yes I start the spindle either with the screen button or with M03 G-code of course,
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 02, 2008, 10:04:51 PM
Hi Hood,
Well it does the same with another keyboard, sorry
Any other idea?
Thanks,
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: Hood on March 03, 2008, 03:46:18 AM
All I can think of is to make sure you have no noise issues, make sure you are using screened cable to feed the relays coil and only have it grounded at 1 end.
Hood
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: Graham Waterworth on March 03, 2008, 03:57:38 AM
Post us a photo of the set up showing the relay, we may be able to get some ideas from it.

Graham.
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: stirling on March 03, 2008, 09:44:49 AM
Hi Bruno

When your spindle switches itself on - does it stay on? or does it just 'blip' on then off again momentarilly?

have you experimented to see what happens if you use an alternative output pin?



Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 03, 2008, 09:57:39 AM
Nope, It stay on until I manually turn it off.
I will try to switch the pin and let you know.
Thanks for the help,
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: vmax549 on March 04, 2008, 12:35:31 PM
When you say manually turn it off how are you doing that???

Through mach or a switch?

(;-) TP
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 04, 2008, 12:49:19 PM
With Mach swittch
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: vmax549 on March 04, 2008, 08:11:11 PM
Double check all your pin/port setting to make sure there are NO duplicates involved. SOmething inside of mach has to be turning it on.

(;-) TP
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: BluePinnacle on March 05, 2008, 08:55:47 AM
I'm very fond of my pin 1 strobe safety, which locks out all power to the contactors unless it can see 12.5KHz on its pin - And since mach3 starts in Estop mode, it hasn't clunked once since i wired the thing in. I could hear a few clunks and grumblings from the relays and contactors before i fitted the strobe safety, it's dead quiet during startup now. I'm also putting in an interlocked safety for tool changing so that not even an M3/M4 command will start the spindle while a tool's being changed. Worth doing since i won't be the main user of this machine... other people's fingers are VERY expensive.
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: jallitt on March 05, 2008, 09:43:59 PM
not sure if this is any help but I wired my spindle through 2 relays in series throught the NO contact of one relay to the NC contact of the other. Which means the only way the spindle can start is if output 1 is on and output 2 is off (which should only happen when Mach is in control). If I yank the parallel cable out (or the PC restarts when the milll is connected) all the relay ouptus float high, all the relays activate and the NC contact breaks so the spindle can't run. Since I have more relay outputs than I'll ever need I'm also running the stepper power supply through 2 relays the same way so they're only powered up when the enable output is on. I'll probably install a charge-pump at some stage so this is a temporary solution.
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 05, 2008, 11:00:52 PM
This idea with two relay in series seems interesting would you share a quick wiring schematic?
Thank you
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: jallitt on March 06, 2008, 01:51:42 AM
something like this - but if your output from mach is somehow turning itself on it's probably not going to help... This only inhibits the spindle if Mach isn't running or the PC reboots.

(http://www.b26354.co.nz/spindlerelay.jpg)
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: stirling on March 06, 2008, 02:45:17 AM
Nope, It stay on until I manually turn it off.
I will try to switch the pin and let you know.
Thanks for the help,
Bruno
... and the result was?

Bruno, you can implement all the fancy do-dads you want but that doesn't change the fact that pin 1 is going high and staying high - and it shouldn't be  ::)
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: BluePinnacle on March 07, 2008, 05:48:21 AM
use a different pin? pin 1 is usually reserved for the strobe line.
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: stirling on March 07, 2008, 05:58:54 AM
use a different pin? pin 1 is usually reserved for the strobe line.

This kind of where I'm going - however pin 1 is only strobe for "conventional" printer drivers. Mach's driver as far as I'm aware has no use for pin1 as strobe and shouldn't be doing this - there is no documentation that says "stay clear of pin 1" as far as I know.

Lightbulb above head mad grasping at straws idea! ;D - Bruno (if you're still here) - you don't by any chance have a conventional printer driver enabled as well as the Mach driver on your system that could be taking strobe high through the side door?
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: BluePinnacle on March 07, 2008, 06:07:37 AM
a good point, printer drivers are pretty dumb. I've never had this problem but then I set up my CNC box from a bare disk, and I've never installed a printer on it.
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 07, 2008, 09:08:04 AM
Hi everyone,
I finally had the time last night to apply the solutions who where giving to since I started this thread except the 2 relays one because I did not have them handy. So I change to pin #2 and I used better shielded wires for the relay, I even shielded the relay itself, and the result is .......
Something works because apparently I do not have the problem anymore. I have the feeling that the shielding part was the reason but I will try to investigate more and will post my finding.
I also want to implement this 2 relays idea as a additional safety measure.
Thanks to everyone for your time and advices, hey.... you problably save my fingers at one point and my machine is ... Scarry!!!! ..... NO MORE!!!!!!
THANK YOU
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: stirling on March 07, 2008, 09:38:51 AM
I'd urge a little caution there Bruno - for the sake of your fingers lets be sure what's happened here.  ;D

This can NOT be a shielding problem unless your relay is a latching relay - which it shouldn't be. That's the reason I asked you a few posts back if it "blipped" on and off intermittently or stayed on. You said it was staying on - noise can't do this. Noise would (if anything) only make your relay and hence your spindle stutter on and off.

Changing to pin2 makes me think that BluePinnacle and I may well be on the right track regarding the strobe signal (pin1). If this is the case and you DO have a "standard" printer driver enabled at the same time then you could still have an unpredictable system on your hands (and those precious fingers). Anyway it's dead easy to rule out - just get yourself into control panel/system and have a look.
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 07, 2008, 10:14:25 AM
What do you call a latching relay? The relay I use is a solid state relay Made by Eastman Kodak 3/24v control up to 240V/10Amps  50/60 HZ.
What you want me to do in the control panel, check if any printer are turn on? uninstall the printer driver?What should I look at?
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 07, 2008, 10:33:11 AM
I went in the system driver and found a ECP printer driver on LPT1 and I disabled it. I left the machine on to see what will happen.
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: stirling on March 07, 2008, 10:44:27 AM
relays - mechanical or solid state - can be latching or momentary (amongst other things). With a latching relay you give it a pulse and it stays on. With momentary, you have to hold the switching signal as long as you want the relay to power. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay I'm sure they'll explain it better than me.

Anyway - I doubt you're using a latching relay - shouldn't be anyway - cos Mach is set up to use momentary.

Yeah sorry - I meant control panel printers not system. If you've previously had a printer on the system then it would be a good idea to remove it. I'm not sure you want to remove or disable the actual driver. Just out of interest though, now you've disabled the port driver, does Mach work at all - I don't know whether the pulse engine uses the port driver or bypasses it.
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 07, 2008, 10:58:40 AM
Thanks for the explaination on the relays.
Well, apparently Mach bypass the driver because it still works fine, I tried because I was concern about it. I think I will remove the driver all together it as I use this computer only for my machine.
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: stirling on March 07, 2008, 11:05:14 AM
OK Bruno - cool - interesting to know. So... not sure where that leads us now. If you havn't used a printer on this machine before and anyway now the port driver is disabled it doesn't really matter because it would be using that - if you follow me.

I guess if you wanted you could go back to using pin1 and see if the problem is now solved - but that's obviously your call. Just mind those fingers  ;D
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: BluePinnacle on March 07, 2008, 11:07:18 AM
I'm headaching out a small but effective spindle safety circuit which will lock out the spindle and enable the brake release, drawbar etc. to operate. Ideally the safety guards around the machine should lock-out the spindle contactor, but not everyone can easily fit this much guarding. :(
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 07, 2008, 11:29:01 AM
I bought this computer used and I do not know if a printer was attach to it before (I suppose it was). I already went a step ahead and already switched back to pin#1, so far everything stay off. I suppose I give it another hour to be (...almost) sure.
I will keep you posted.
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 07, 2008, 12:14:49 PM
This time we got the complete answer.
After 45min the spindle was still behaving well and was still off so I decided to out the entire system back to what it was pin#1 and this ECP driver enable. Guess what happens... I was back to the same problem , after less than 3min the router started on its own....Scary!!!
This time I really feel that you guy found the solution.
My ten fingers thanks you very much, and I am sure this thread will serve other people as well.
Thank you again,
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: stirling on March 07, 2008, 12:20:23 PM
Rock n roll Bruno and good for you for going the whole nine yards to nailing the problem. At least now you can be pretty sure all is well.
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: BluePinnacle on March 07, 2008, 01:37:42 PM
 ;D Grand.  Much better.
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 07, 2008, 04:56:38 PM
I think we are not done yet:
I uninstalled this EPC printer, shut down the computer, reboot and guess what the EPC driver is back and enable again and after 3 min the spindle start on its own again....scary!!!!

So how I can get make this driver disappearing, I tried to uninstalled it 3 time and every time it is back.
Bruno
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: stirling on March 08, 2008, 04:11:41 AM
Hmmmm just tried it on mine and it does the same (re-enables the driver that is - not starts the spindle)

is there anywhere on your port hardware properties dialog that you can set it into SPP, BPP or hell even EPP mode? I seem to remember reading somewhere that ECPs can be a bit troublesome with non printer devices - if you can't disable it can you stop it setting that strobe high? - sorry grasping at straws now... ???
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: Hood on March 08, 2008, 05:14:16 AM
is there anywhere on your port hardware properties dialog that you can set it into SPP, BPP or hell even EPP mode? I seem to remember reading somewhere that ECPs can be a bit troublesome with non printer devices - if you can't disable it can you stop it setting that strobe high? - sorry grasping at straws now... ???

If its the onboard port then the BIOS will have the option to set it to SPP, EPP etc

Hood
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: BluePinnacle on March 08, 2008, 01:07:13 PM
I imagine a far easier option would be to use a different pin for the spindle.

The charge pump safety is another good trick, and I've sorted my spindle lockout safety as well. It'll disable the spindle while a switch is turned on, and - here's the clever bit - if the spindle is given an m3 or m4 command while the safety is engaged, the relay stays on and keeps the spindle locked out until m5 is issued and the spindle shut off. Then it's open to m3 and m4 again. Just stops the spindle running up the moment the safety is disengaged. it also locks out the drawbar motor and brake release as well, making sure the operator gets into the habit of using the safety.

A no-volt-release switch in line with the spindle would be a failsafe way of ensuring your fingers stay on, and very very simple. But I'd use a different pin anyway. You must have a couple spare.
Title: Re: MACH3 is starting the router on its own... Scarry!!!!
Post by: bruno76 on March 09, 2008, 05:01:22 AM
Good news again
I find out that if you uninstall all the printer drivers and you disable the ECP printer it stays disable after reboot so I am now sure that the ECP was the problem so far my machine is on for now 4 hours and the spindle stays off. The trick was to get rid of the drivers of any printer.
Bruno