Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Video P*r*o*b*i*n*g => Topic started by: ART on November 23, 2007, 08:51:42 AM
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Hi Guys, this is the start of the machcloud program, only a viewer at the moment, but will become our
meshing program..
Art
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Art,
I'd like to see the format of a typical point cloud file. Can you post as example?
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Hi, David
Hears what it will load now,
-1.9005 , 0.3834 , 2.9396
-1.8850 , 0.3851 , 2.9465
-1.8732 , 0.3849 , 2.9456
-1.0162 , 0.8038 , 4.7026
Hopefully later it will load X -1.0162 , Y 0.8038 , Z 4.7026 That Mach can generate also.
The viewer sorta takes over all my Txt files as Point Cloud's.
Hope this Helps, Chip
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....
The viewer sorta takes over all my Txt files as Point Cloud's.
Hope this Helps, Chip
I noticed that it takes over the txt files. That's easy to fix though. Just right click on the txt file and choose "open with", then "notepad".
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Hi, David
Yea but you have to do it every time you open a text file so it seems.
I'm sure it'll get sorted out soon, Some new .??? extent.
It's just nice to have viewer without all the CAD Work though.
Thanks, Chip
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Hi, Art
Your Prop scanned some time ago looks pretty good in the Viewer.
Hears the file, http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1196.0;id=803
Thanks, Chip
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Hi, David
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Yea but you have to do it every time you open a text file so it seems.
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Thanks, Chip
Look for "open with"..."choose new program"...
At this point you get a list of programs and the opportunity to make it permanent.
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Hi, David
This is true Right click on file sel Properties then Change to notepad ect...
BobCad dose the same thing as do many other prog's when you install updates.
Thanks, Chip
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Hi Guys:
Here is a newer machCloud program..
Itallows for some pruning and cloud decimation as cleanups..
Art
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Hi, Art
Could you add the "X -1.0162 , Y 0.8038 , Z 4.7026", Format
That Mach can generate with Probing.
How dose the Decimate Cloud function work.
Thanks, Chip
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Hi Chip:
Yes, Ill add that. I just needed spaces at the moment, but machcloud can now deal with ,'s , so Ill add that..
Art
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I would like to see something related to signal strength for each data point. Label it with the letter "I" for intensity.
That would then be a qualifier for how credible that data point is.
This could be the sum of the pixel values in the group or it could be the peak value.
Adding intensity for each point also allows scanning a flat part where the Z value is nearly constant.
Then you could display (X,Y,I) data as the cloud of points.
Intensity also shows surface texture details like roughness or machining marks or the angle of the surface.
Tom Hubin
thubin@earthlink.net
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Tom:
Hmm, not a bad idea at all.. Im still working on th eviewer, but I have some things I want to add in
the point cloud maker as well, so Ill add that when I get there. Probably some interesting things one could do with such data..
Art
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Hi Guys:
Next version of machclouds output..
first is my hand, 20 seconds to generate, the second is a mechanically probed part, the propellor example,
interrupted after 5 minuts of meshing.. it shows how it crawls the object.. Looks usefull then even for mechanically probed points..
Art
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Looking great. How would it work if you had 2 lasers at opposing angles to each other and the camera in the middle? Would you get a better part definition?
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Hi:
Yes, and I may add that capability soon, but I wanted to make an stl file creation program first, the points seemed
useless till we had something that woudl create a model..
Art
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Well, let me know when you feel it's a sellable item... You know I'll be there. :D Now to get the other guys to do some more work on foam cutting (hot wire). ::)
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Art,
Very cool! 8)
You are a Renaissance man and a coding machine.
I downloaded the latest MachCloud off the Mach3 download area. I was able to open the scan of the hand which crafted this eloquent app, generate a mesh an save the STL. I"m including a image of how it looks in MeshCam.
Please post a scan of your right hand so I can start milling my very own Art.
Again, very cool!
Bob
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LOL, I agree Bob, everyone needs an Art. ;D
Brett
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Heres a simulation of the Gcode as generated by MeshCam and simulated in CutViewer Mill. I must admit, it would take a while to cut this on my little Emco Mill at 7" / min and a 3/32 ball nose endmill.
Bob
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When I generate a point cloud it has a ( , ) between the code and the one with the hand doesn't?
Don
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Hi Don:
Industry standard is just to have a space, MachCloud will read either one, th enext plugin will give a choice,
but mine only puts out spaces right now, yours puts out commas..
Art
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Thanks
Don :)
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Art,
I don't know if this helps the development of your meshing software, but long time ago I found this interesting link regarding a meshing freware made here in Italy : http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/ and this is the university site http://vcg.isti.cnr.it/joomla/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
hope it helps
rgds
giorgio
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Giorgio,
That's an interesting site. Looking at the photo examples is just scratching the surface, but it did give me some insight into the problems Art is facing. I need to get back and try another scan soon.
Dave
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OK, so scans are starting to come together and I'm getting some pretty good results scanning only in the Y axis. Now I'm ready to expand my horizons and try some scans using the X axis.
I already asked Art from some pointers on how to do this on another thread but thought I would continue the conversation here as it's a better place. I hope you are watching this thread too ART!
After I scan using both Y & X axis I try to view the cloud in Mach Cloud. When I open up the .txt file Mach Cloud displays a message stating 'Use the Left Right arrows to register, then press Enter to continue. Then you must click the OK button. After clicking OK, the first cloud set appears- I press the left/right arrow keys but nothing seems to happen. I'm not sure if this is a problem with my Computer/Video card or if I am runing the wrong version of Mach Cloud or if I am just doing something wrong.
I usually press the right arrow button about 5 or 6 times then press the enter key. Then the 2nd scan set appears. Then the register message again. I repeat my key tapping routine and the process repeats until all the scan sets appear.
It is INDEED what I scanned over the length of the X axis but the sets overlap each other. I have this feeling that they are overlapping because I didn't align them correctly. But, considering that I couldn't see what I was aligning I feel like a blind man who just won the price at the carnival shooting gallery :D
I also tried to manaully edit the point cloud .txt file and just remove the word 'stripe' whenever it appeared. I know this is the wrong thing to do but the I wanted to see what results it would yield. It did seem to remove the overlapping in the X but it added overlapping in the Y.
Maybe it's still too early in the development process of MachCloud to be using this feature but I again feel I am so close I can taste it.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
Regards,
Sid
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Sid:
Yup, just too early for that feature. On mine I can see the stripes move as I use the arrow keys. This is to register the points to correct any inaccuracies in the
mesurement of pixel size. Its not machcloud thats broke in that sense, its the aquisition plugin, I need to make it much more accurate in terms of field size, yours must
be calibrating more off than mine, usually , 2 or 3 arrows make mine match up. Overlapping is normal, this is whats supposed to make the sides of items visable, but the accuracy isnt yet
high enough to take advantage..
Art
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Aha- I feel like Chuck Yeager at 3 MPH below the threshold of the sound barrier- SOOOO Close. Havin' fun now though.
I know that you have to design things 'for the masses' so to speak. I imagine most dudes want to be able to scan a pimple on a fly's a$$ but for what I'm doing the accuracy has been more than sufficient. I'm tryin to scan relatively simple smooth pieces but, they are long 6'. Aside from the striping/alignment issue I'm at the point where I could actually start to earn some money using this Plugin. ;D
I understand that it's hard to make a plugin that is all things for all peeps- everyone has their own specific goals. Is that why you guys released the SDK?
Thanks,
Sid
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Sid:
Yup, thats the idea. It allows a person to do modifcations to a plugin as they wish. or to write their own. Unfortunatley , in the case of the video prober, I cant release the source, it uses a licensed video input ocx..
Art
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Ah yes, the finest jewels are always locked up tight in a glass case where they can only be fawned and drooled over. Ok, I guess I'll just have to admire them from a distance ;)
Thanks,
Sid
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BOOM
That was the sound of me breaking through! HUGE progress today!
Using the 1st release of Mach Cloud (the one without the meshing capabilty). I was finally able to open up a Y & X scan and see the 2 sections and make them line up. 2 Sections appear- one in Black and the other in RED
I never saw this before using the latest release that I got from the downloads page. Something happened to the 2nd release of Mach Cloud and although all of the dialogs appear and the sections DO get inserted the video part of it during the alignment is missing. So, now I'm using the 1st version to 'Stitch', saving the cloud and then opening up the latest version to DECIMATE and mesh.
The sample below if my 32" Pipe Wrench done in 4) X axis Passes with an 8" step. I kinda messed up somehow on the stich because the geometry on the saved .stl file says the wrench is 30" so I lost 2" during aligment but still- I'm STOKED! I got progressively harder during the alignment process because everything starts getting so small (zooms out) when it adds the sections. NOTE- the following sentence is a shameless feature request not required for programmers to read....
A zoom feature preferably controlled by the wheel on the mouse would make this process A LOT easy for dudes who already have reluctantly admitted a need for those dime store magnifying glasses ;)
A Good Day!
Sid
I think
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Hello Sid,
> Something happened to the 2nd release of Mach Cloud and although all of the dialogs appear and the
> sections DO get inserted the video part of it during the alignment is missing. So, now I'm using the
> 1st version to 'Stitch', saving the cloud and then opening up the latest version to DECIMATE and mesh.
I scanned a penny. The PointCloud seems to have reasonable data, although the scaling is off. Nevertheless, I should get a round disc with some slightly raised surface features. I can read it into the latest version of MachCloud but cannot manipulate it in any way. Also, the upper right view and both of the lower views are the same except for rotation. I have been unable to rotate or scale anything.
Are you still using the first version? If so, where can I get it? Maybe email it to me?
Tom Hubin
thubin@earthlink.net
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Hey Tom,
I downloaded the 1st version from a link that Art posted in one of his messages at the beginning of this thread- should still be there- if not lemme know and I'll send it to you.
In order to 'orbit' the view in Mach Cloud you need a wheel mouse . Touchpad on a laptop won't work (at least not on mine). The roller wheel allows the rotation.
Also Rhino is a good program for viewing the point clouds. Download and viewing Clouds are free but you have a limit on saving meshed files.
Let's see some clouds!!!
Regards,
Sid
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Hello Sid,
> > I downloaded the 1st version [of MachCloud] from a link that Art posted
> > in one of his messages at the beginning of this thread- should still be
> > there- if not lemme know and I'll send it to you.
Thanx. I found a November version and downloaded. Not yet installed. I
had some luck with the latest version earlier today.
> > In order to 'orbit' the view in Mach Cloud you need a wheel mouse.
> > Touchpad on a laptop won't work (at least not on mine). The roller
> > wheel allows the rotation.
Thanx for the tip. I learn something new here every day. I scrounged up
a mouse with a wheel and can now rotate views. There must be a method to
that but, so far, I just screw around on the screen until I get something I like.
> > Also Rhino is a good program for viewing the point clouds. Download
> > and viewing Clouds are free but you have a limit on saving meshed files.
That is a big (135MB I think) download and I am still on dialup. I'll
have to wait and download on somebody else's cable then write to CD.
> > Let's see some clouds!!!
Working on it but it is painfully slow. I am using a laptop that slows
to a crawl when I load the video plugin. I found a newer driver for
Windows 2000 and XP. I will try that later today. Maybe that camera
driver will be more compatible with Mach3.
I finally figured out that the scan assumes that the projected laser
line is parallel to the X axis and that a single pass scan would be in
the Y direction. I cannot rotate this version of the laser triangulation
gauge so I swapped the X and Y axis pins in Mach3 so I can test.
I tried scanning a penny. It works but the Z values vary so little that
showing Z details is a challenge. I think the resolution is there, just
difficult to demonstrate so I will work that one another time.
I am presently scanning a key. I started a single 2 inch long Y scan of
a 0.75 inch wide X path a couple of hours ago. It should be done in
another hour or two. I was not exaggerating when I said that Mach3 slows
to a crawl when I load the video probe plugin.
BTW, thanx for the tip about stopping the video to get to the Source
option to setup AGC and other options. How did you ever figure that out?
Days ago I got nothing from the Source button and the Format button
locked up Mach3 so that I had to use Ctrl-Alt-Del to get out of Mach3
and restart. And, of course, redo the calibration.
Well, that's it for now. I made a lot of progress today. Most of it in
just understanding how to use Mach3 for this. Is there a document
covering video probing?
Tom Hubin
thubin@earthlink.net
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Glad to hear things are going well.
The problem you are having with Mach slowing down is not right. That scan you did should have been completed in about 15 seconds- not 3 hours. There is some other issue with your laptop or the video driver for that camera. Do you have ANYTHING else runing in the background or just MACH 3 with the 3d Plugin? Any other video windows being open will slow you down- EVERYTHING else HAS to be closed. Do you have quicktime loaded on that laptop? That will kill you also.
Regards,
Sid
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Hi Sid,
I've been working with the plugin off and on for a while now but can't get dimensionally good results. I can get detail just not proportions that are usable.
Can you share with me your Scan setup...
-Laser angle to object
-Camera angle to object
-Camera distance to object
-Camera Model/Spec
Also, any plugin settings you can share would be awesome.
Thanks!
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Yo Baba!
It's been a while since I have done any scanning (been busy on other projects) but I'll try and answer from memory.
Laser is almost directly aove camera- offset maybe a few degrees (there is a photo I posted of this in another thread) http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,4777.20.html
Camera angle is around 20 Deg
Distance = 10-12"
Camera= Gigaware Webcam- got it from Radio Shack for $20- so far this one works the best.
I'll try and fire up the scanner and get some more info.
HTH,
Sid
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Hello Hbaba,
> I've been working with the plugin off and on for a while now but can't get dimensionally
> good results. I can get detail just not proportions that are usable.
> Can you share with me your Scan setup...
Here is a drawing of my setup. I show the camera and and laser axes in the XZ plane but Mach3's 3d Probe Plugin presumes that the camera and laser axes are in the YZ plane.
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,5023.msg42913.html#msg42913
It is important that the laser and camera axes intersect at 90 degrees so that the laser plane is parallel to the camera lens detector planes.
> Laser angle to object
Laser angle is 30 degrees clockwise from Z axis.
> Camera angle to object
Camera angle is 60 degrees counter clockwise from Z axis.
> Camera distance to object
See drawing for layout.
-Camera Model/Spec
3Com Watchport/V CCD USB Webcam with 648h by 480v square pixels for VGA format. I use a 12mm focal length f/2 lens. This gives the camera a 14 x 18 degree field of view. At the target that is about 1/2 inch square.
> Also, any plugin settings you can share would be awesome.
I use a 1/4 inch square bar to calibrate. The corners are slightly rounded since this is just extruded stock. I have a scan of a key. http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,6596.msg44274.html#msg44274
Calibration would be more accurate if I milled the calibration bar so that the bar surfaces intersect at a sharp 90 degrees. I have not measured anything in the point cloud so cannot yet comment on precision. My probe is being shown at the CNC Workshop in Illinois right now. I will have it back in a week or two and will then be able to do more testing.
Tom Hubin
thubin@earthlink.net
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Hello Sid,
> Laser is almost directly above camera- offset maybe a few degrees
> (there is a photo I posted of this in another thread)
>http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,4777.20.html
I See the laser but I don't see the camera. Is there a photo that shows them both at the same time?
> Camera angle is around 20 Deg
Are the laser and camera axes intersecting at 90 degrees?
Tom Hubin
thubin@earthlink.net
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Hey Tom,
Yeah it's hard to see the camera in that shot- it's below the piece of wood below the laser and back about 1". I'll try to get another pic the next time my scanner is set up
They do NOT intersect @ 90Deg on my rig
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Thanks a bunch Sid! When I saw your pipewrench shot I noticed that even though topographically cobby the proportions looked good. Plus you mentioned being 2" short out of 32", which is more good news.
I look forward to learning the plugin settings you have. With this plugin it seems trusting in science isn't a practical strategy. ;D BTW- I do the Rhino thing too, and also Solidworks. A/D (aka- reverse engineering) is a real time burner for me. If I can get this plugin to work @ 80% or better I'd be stoked.
Tom,
I'm doing the 90 deg setup now and the results are poor in a variety of ways. Do you have any before/after scans to share that came out well?
Thanks!
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Hello Hbaba,
> I'm doing the 90 deg setup now and the results are poor in a variety of ways.
What item are you scanning? Is it recognizable? Is it distorted? Is there a lot of unknown or unwanted stuff cluttering the scan?
What camera are you using? Can you setup AGC for Peak rather than the more common Average? If not, can you set the exposure time very low so that the laser is visible while the background is black?
If camera is upside down, did you select mirror and flip options in the Mach3 camera setup? If not, calibration is screwy and I have no idea what that does to the math. If not sure, post a screen shot with your calibration bar in place right after you calibrate.
Try scanning your calibration bar. Does the point cloud look like a square bar? If so, can you determine the size of the square bar from the point cloud?
Can you post some of your results?
Some stuff that would be informative:
Photo of your camera/laser setup.
Screen shot of probe video on Mach3.
Output (text file) from a scan that you are not happy with.
JPEG file showing views from various angles from MachCloud or other software.
> Do you have any before/after scans to share that came out well?
Not sure what you mean by "before/after" but I only have that one good scan of the key. I do have one of a penny but it does not show enough detail to say that it is anything but a disc.
My only probe is out of my hands at the moment. Should be able to do more next week when I get it back or maybe make another probe if I find time.
BTW, another camera that looks promising is the Playstation "Eye Toy". It does not have Peak AGC but does have the ability to turn AGC off and set exposure time very short. Not short enough to black out the background so it works better with house lights out or at least very dim.
Tom Hubin
thubin@earthlink.net
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Can someone explain the features within the Cloud and Mesh drop down menu items.(Or point me to documentation)
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I scanned a coin at 1mm steps as a crude test and it worked OK with the ball conversion and the default values. I scanned the same coin at 0.25mm step size and I am having problems converting the file. The cloud loads OK.
That brings me to the real question: Where can I find a help file with info on how to set the parameters for the ball conversion and other options in MachCloud? TIA
Bertho
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Bertho, Have you looked in the video tutorials section? Support tab at the top of this page.
Brett
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Thanks Brett,
I have not found any video relating to MachCloud. Am I overlooking it? TIA
Bertho
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Hi:
The ball algorithm is like rolling a ball over the points, when the ball rests on 3 points, a triangle is formed and
the ball is rolled over again. SO the Ball diamter shoudl be set slightly higher than the average disance betwen points.
Can be hard to figure, but using Decimate is a way to reduce the amount of poiints and make the ball rolling easier..
Experimental program though, so its allot fo trial and error..
Art
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Thanks Art,
I found a very nice ball algorithm description at: : http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/vistechnology/pdf/bpa_tvcg.pdf
In MachCloud what is minimum distance referring to? What is the angle referring to?
I touch probe scanned a quarter in 1mm steps and the default MachCloud settings work. I then scanned it with 0.25mm steps size and the cloud looks good but I cannot manage to get a ball conversion. I have tried a lot of different combinations without luck. What am I doing wrong? Please see attached filr. TIA
Bertho
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Its the max angle a ball can fall into , stops undercleaving..
Art
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Thanks Art,
I am sorry for being pest but can you or someone else show me the settings to use for MachCloud for the ball pivoting option on my submitted file?
The file looks clean and the data is on a 0.25mm grid from a touch probe so it will not get much better or simpler than that. TIA
Bertho
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Sorry, cant do it. Totally experimental program, there is no support for it.. its just a hobby thing I tinker with, you can eother get it to work on a
file or you cant.. Its just one of those types of programs..
Art
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Art,
No problem. Thank you for providing the program. It looks very promising.
Bertho
Sorry, cant do it. Totally experimental program, there is no support for it.. its just a hobby thing I tinker with, you can eother get it to work on a
file or you cant.. Its just one of those types of programs..
Art
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Scanned a penny today. Haven't quite figured out what all the settings are in MachCloud so it might get better with so more messin'. Scanned at 0.02mm step over 15mm in Y axis, took about 20 seconds. There's only 0.003" between the highest and lowest features so resolution is pretty good. Thanks Art! great program.
(http://www.thedances.com/WebFiles/Penny.jpg)
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Scanned a penny today. Haven't quite figured out what all the settings are in MachCloud so it might get better with so more messin'. Scanned at 0.02mm step over 15mm in Y axis, took about 20 seconds. There's only 0.003" between the highest and lowest features so resolution is pretty good. Thanks Art! great program.
(http://www.thedances.com/WebFiles/Penny.jpg)
Did you use a touch probe in the digitizing wizzard in Mach3? Which settings did you use? 20 seconds sounds very fast to me for that tight resolution.....
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It was scanned with a laser line generator and video camera, not a probe. There's a thread on the forums somewhere on how to do it. It's much quicker than probing and easier on your Z axis.
Just found the thread
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,4777.0.html
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Wow.. nice work.
Art
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hello Art,
The MachCloud can do ball conversion for 4th axis digitizing wizard output?
regards,
Seb
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Seb:
Yes, it deals with a 3d cloud, doesnt matter what dimension..
Art
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thank your your answer Art
in this case I have a problem... the machcloud does not alter my 4th axis digitizing wizard output
there are any limitations for the probe's ball diameter? I have to scan a little larger model, an aircraft propeller, and I used a longer probe tip with a larger ball tip, 16.6mm diameter
could this larger diameter be the issue? thanks
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Hard to say, its been years since I ran machcloud... but the dia of the ball is settable, so Id try experimenting to see if you can find
a good setting. MachCloud was experimental when I wrote it, so there no for sure way to run it..
Art
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thanks, really appreciate your answer
but, I still have some questions:
1. the 4th axis digitizing wizard output is in polar coordinates. I convert this output in Cartesian coordinates. But... the ball conversion... should be do it for Cartesian coordinates. Is this correct?
2. can you give me more details about "max angle" setting? By default is 1.57. Shortest edge (0.5 by default) is clear, I think, should be the shortest straight edge on the digitized model. but the max angle, is not very clear for me, especially for 4th axis digitizing tasks
and... if you know.... there are any other application which can do this ball conversion?
kind regards,
Seb
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Seb:
All data should be in cartesion coordinates. The ball method basically rolls a ball bearing of whatever size you dictate across the points. Whenever the ball rests
on 3 points, that creates a triangle for the output. If the angle between any points are higher than the max angle, it is ignored. This helps for some situations
when the ball doesnt quite sit properly on those points.
Im not sure how many app's are out that do this, it was a theory expressed in a papaer I read, so I write a routine to do it... Seems to work well
under many situations, but I havent used it in years so I cant advise much on how best to use it anymore. :)
Art
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thank you Art
I'll keep do some tests and report back
regards