Machsupport Forum
Third party software and hardware support forums. => SmoothStepper USB => Topic started by: ART on October 22, 2007, 12:39:26 PM
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Hi All:
Welcome to the smoothstepper forum. This group is moderated by Greg Cary , the inventor of the smoothstepper.
Its purpose is to ensure timely movementis done on any reported issues . SO list here any questions or issues that arise from the use
of a smoothstepper, or ask any questions pertinant to that device.
As of this entry, the SS is not released, but in preperation for Beta list users to have theirs delivered. 2-3 weeks projected
till that time.
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Does smooth stepper have a site we can visit and read about?
Is there any reading we can do to find more details about SS?
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Hi All,
Thank you for your interest in the SmoothStepper USB controller for Mach. The SmoothStepper is a new USB-based controller that is meant to be a replacement for the parallel port. It was designed to emulate the parallel port (electrically and physically), which allows for a seamless integration into existing setups. New designs will also benefit from the very precise, fast, and clean step rates that the SmoothStepper produces. The SmoothStepper plugin uses the same XML data that is used to configure the native parallel port version of Mach. Except for a few unique parameters (such as maximum step frequency), all of the SmoothStepper's setup parameters come from the same setup dialogs that the parallel port version uses, such as Ports and Pins. Even oddball setups that use something like pin 17 for the X Step signal are handled with no problem. The SmoothStepper looks and feels just like the parallel port. Existing breakout boards should interface with the SmoothStepper without any issues.
The SmoothStepper is powered by a Xilinx FPGA for very high performance. In the current design, the maximum step rate is 4 MHz , but there is no reason why this couldn't be increased to 8 MHz or more if necessary. Data is sent from the PC to the SmoothStepper in very fine segments, making it very suitable for "3D" work. The USB chip is an FTDI FT245R. FTDI provides a Microsoft WHQL certified driver for all versions of Windows (http://ftdichip.com/Drivers/D2XX.htm). Driver installation is straightforward.
With the SmoothStepper, there is a single plug-in file that contains both the FPGA firmware and the Mach plug-in software. Each time you start Mach, the firmware is downloaded to the device in the blink of an eye. Because it is all contained in one file, there is no chance of a mismatch between the plug-in software and the FPGA firmware. Upgrades are as simple as selecting a different plugin version. Upgrades will be free.
The SmoothStepper has two parallel port interfaces on it. The first port is configured with pins 2 through 9 as outputs. The second port is a bidirectional port, allowing pins 2 through 9 to be either inputs or outputs. The connectors are 26-pin low-profile headers, and depending upon the application, may be either male or female (but not both). With male connectors on the top side of the board (component side), ribbon cables can connect to a breakout board or a DB25 cable. With female headers on the bottom of the board, the SmoothStepper can plug directly onto a breakout board that has the same connector spacing for a neat cableless connection. Be on the lookout for breakout boards that will have this capability. The output drive from the SmoothStepper is suitable for driving opto-isolators directly (for example Geckos), so if you are on a budget, you could connect it directly. The SmoothStepper is 3.625" x 2.75" (92mm x 70mm) in size, allowing it to fit nicely in space-limited cabinets. When I get some time in a few days I will post a picture of it.
In addition to the two parallel ports, the SmoothStepper has pluggable screw terminals for two encoder inputs with index. One of the two inputs is differential, and the other is single-ended. These inputs could be used as additional discrete inputs if they are not used for encoders/MPGs. The intended purpose of the differential encoder input is for synchronization to the spindle in threading applications. I have designed the pieces required for this function, but have not begun integration of them yet. It will be a priority to complete threading before the SmoothStepper is released. There is also an expansion connector that will give the SmoothStepper the ability to expand its capabilities in the future.
Art and Brian have been running a prototype version of the SmoothStepper since the Galesburg CNC Workshop. When Brian first received his board in the mail, he hooked it up to his laptop, and within minutes was running a machine while talking to me on Skype, and running CAM software at the same time. I think many people will want to upgrade their existing parallel port setup, just so they can use their new laptop that does not have a parallel port.
Unfortunately I do not have a website ready to go yet. When it is available, I will post something to this forum letting you know that it is ready. When it is ready, the website will be http://www.Warp9TD.com/, so you can check it every once in a while if you'd like. But don't bother for a couple weeks.
The SmoothStepper will retail for $155 USD. I hope to get the beta test boards to the contract manufacturer this week. Everything always seems to stretch out further than I'd like.
Many thanks to Art and Brian of Artsoft for their support in making this product a reality. I can't count the number of e-mails and plug-in revisions that have passed back and forth. This product won't have everything that everyone wants, but there will be expansion boards and other products in the future. There were a lot of other people that have offered advice along the way. The list of people to thank is actually quite long. I'll post a big thank you someday soon.
I will do my best to answer your questions. Hopefully this is a good start.
Greg Cary
Warp9 Tech Design, Inc.
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Great start and good news Greg. The Smooth Stepper will fill a void that is certain to make lots of Mach users happy for sure.
Brett
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Hi Greg and welcome to the forum. Let us know if you need anything.
If you want to host a video directly in this thread, showing us your smooth steppers in action, post the video in our youtube section http://www.youtube.com/groups_videos?name=artsoft and I will then place the video directly in this thread as well.
Regards Benny.
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Thank you Benny and Brett. If I need anything I'll be sure to holler. You have any time? I could use a little of that :-)
Greg
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Hi Greg, finally got to hear the official line of the SmoothStepper. Congrats!
Great to hear about the encoders and in particular, the differential encoder for spindle synchronization for threading.
I have a cnc-ready lathe that I am presently working on. It has an encoder with 1024 PPR installed on the spindle via a timing belt/pulley arrangement (see pictures below) and I would like to know how this is going to work under the SmoothStepper.
Thanks,
Weedy
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Hi Weedy. I'm glad you like the differential input. My plans are to allow the user to select whether they want to use 1 pulse per rev (Index only), or Encoder counts plus the index (A, B, and Index). Encoders with high pulses per rev will be no problem for the SmoothStepper, and you should be able to cut some pretty good-looking threads with that lathe of yours.
Thanks,
Greg
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Hi Greg,
I saw the prototype at the Galesburg event, it was very impressive then, it must be great by now, when can I get my sticky fingers on one?
Graham.
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Cant wait for this to come out, my lathe needs the extra pulse frequency and I have an encoder standing by for the spindle ;)
Hood
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Hi Graham,
I remember seeing you at Galesburg. I wasn't there for very long though. Next year I will be there longer, so maybe we can chat for a while when I'm there.
I'm not really sure when the boards will be available for sale. I sent the solder paste Gerber to the contract manufacturer today to have a stencil made. I think it takes a couple of days for that. I still have to order some of the mundane parts tonight from DigiKey. I've already procured the parts that have longer lead times, so I don't have any worries about not having parts. The contract manufacturer told me they have a 2-week lead time, but I think they'll be able to turn them around quicker than that. Once the beta testers give it a thumbs up, then I'll have more boards made (with a few minor changes, since it is rare that a board is perfect the first time). I'll order the first batch of production boards with a shorter lead time so that I can get them out there quicker.
The prototype in Galesburg didn't have homing, limits, or probing finished yet. But I had nailed the motion part of it, which has to be good or it isn't worth doing.
Greg
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Cant wait for this to come out, my lathe needs the extra pulse frequency and I have an encoder standing by for the spindle ;)
Hood
Hi Hood. I see you're in Scotland. If I ever have any trouble with FTDI (the USB chip company), would you go over and rattle their cage for me? (Just kidding). They're in Glasgow, which looks like it is a couple hours from Carnoustie.
Greg
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Hi Guys:
Just a reminder that to see a smoothstepper move, the benchmark video on the downloads page is
from a smoothstepper running my mill..
Art
(I see traffics building on this topic already.. :) )
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Hi Hood. I see you're in Scotland. If I ever have any trouble with FTDI (the USB chip company), would you go over and rattle their cage for me? (Just kidding). They're in Glasgow, which looks like it is a couple hours from Carnoustie.
Greg
That will be no problem, I have a pal thats even closer to Glasgow and he so ugly it will put the frighteners on them as soon as they see him:D
Hood
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Hi Greg
Good to read about the new board.
Will it be manufactured to meet European Union regulations so it can be sold here in the UK, ie will you be applying for a RoHS Certificate of Compliance?
I currently use Xylotex boards on my mill and lathe - wiil I be able to use them with the SmoothStepper?
Jim
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Hi Jim,
Yes the board will be RoHS, but I haven't done anything about a Certificate of Compliance. Can someone help me out here? Where do I go to get one?
I have not tried a Xylotex board, but as long as you can hook it up to the parallel port of a PC, it should work well. If you have a link to a specific board that you'd like me to look at, please post it or send it in e-mail and I'll take a look.
Greg
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This sounds great. I just switched back to PP and sold my G100. Never materialized as I had hoped. And I really missed spindle speed feedback. Will this be able to do probing?
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Hi:
Probeing is still being worked on, it does do G31 moves, but the interface to the probeing plugin is not quite complete. We
do anticipate probeing at about 4K - 5k points per hour by release time.
Art
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Hi Greg
RoHS Certificate of Compliance.
My limited research into these certificates indicates that the companies which manufacture/sell the electonic products produce the certificate themselves.
A Google search on "rohs certificate of compliance" produces a number of examples of types of certificates which companies use - they all appear to be signed by a senior member of their respective organisations and copies are issued with each product sold.
I'm sure your company Tiger Technologies will be able to self certify and then issue your own bespoke certificate.
Hope this helps but please bear in mind I'm not an expert on this EU directive.
Jim
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Thanks Jim. Sounds easy enough. I will do the Google search this evening. I have received similar certificates from companies that I have ordered parts from. It sounds like I will need those certificates to back up my claim.
By the way, a little clarification, my company is "Warp9 Tech Design, Inc" and "Tiger Technologies" is the web hosting company I am using (interestingly there is a company named "TigerTec" that sells CNC routers (http://www.tigertec.us/)). I chose the name "Warp9" after looking and looking for web addresses that were not taken. I couldn't believe the number of oddball addresses I came up with that were already spoken for. warp9.com is taken, so I tacked on "Tech Design" and made a fairly short address with warp9td.com. My motto is "Taking Mach to Warp Speed!".
Thanks again,
Greg
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Hi guys
Is the SS read for sale?
I’m doing a lathe conversion and will have someone
build my cabinet.
They suggested that I hold off a bit until the SS was
ready.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Sorry for not providing any updates lately, but that is mostly because there hasn't been much to report. It has been a slow process. The contract manufacturer has been waiting for the stencil to arrive, and just yesterday it did, so I brought all the parts over and they told me they should be built by the end of the week. Once the beta testers have had a chance to report back any issues, I'll get this on a fast track to getting production boards ready for sale. Thank you for having patience. Some of the beta testers are overseas, and it is going to take a little time just for shipping and to get it through customs. To be realistic, it is going to be just after the holidays before production boards will hit the streets.
Greg
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Thanks for your time! Please keep us posted.
Chris
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One other thing I just though of. Will backlash comp work?
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Backlash compensation is something that really intrigues me, but I have not worked on yet. The compensation is performed after Mach calculates the motion data, which makes it tricky. I'll look at adding it to the plug-in after the SS is released. Hopefully it won't be too hard to implement.
Thanks,
Greg
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Trying to keep it from getting dusty! Any updates?
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Sorry for the lack of updates lately. Getting all the beta test units out the door was a bit time consuming. But most of them have arrived at their destination now. There have been a few issues that we've worked through, such as problems getting initial configuration values in the XML. My fault for it being a bit confusing. I'm working on some startup dialogs that will make sure it is painless. There are just a few parameters that are unique to the SmoothStepper. Otherwise, the SmoothStepper uses all of the XML values that the Parallel Port uses. I've had reports of beta testers using their existing XML files without any issues. The SmoothStepper can assign any signal to any input or output pin as appropriate.
Right now I'm working on the jog routine. When I initially coded it, I didn't take into account that someone might be switching the jog speed from a higher value to a lower value. This became evident when operating it with a Shuttle. I think the modifications to the code will actually make it a bit smaller. Too bad I didn't do it this way in the beginning :-).
It is still hard to say when I'll have production boards available, but I'm shooting for mid-January to February. The Warp9TD.com website is coming along. I think the SmoothStepper forum will eventually be headquartered there. Not much over there in the way of documentation, but I hope to get some of that online soon as well. You're welcome to check it out, though there might still be some startup issues with the website. I was having trouble tonight logging in with Internet Explorer, but no problems with Firefox. So if you can't log in, try Firefox. Actually, I'm a big fan of Firefox, so if you use Internet Explorer you might want to try FireFox :-). But the login problem was isolated to me, so you might not have any problem. You can join the forum over there and ask questions. Or ask them here. Right now that will be the quickest way to find out more about the SmoothStepper.
Greg
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Greg take you time, if I had one here it would be 6 mouths before I could use it anyway!
Chris
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What exactly is the "smooth stepper"? I looked at the website and it looks like a BOB with a USB interface?
Vince
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Its a replacement for printer ports. Its USB, has two printer ports on it, and pulses to 4Mhz..
Art
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Thanks. I did some more Gooogle searches and found some more information.
Vince
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Anything happening, I'm ready to buy one now though it seems to have been very quiet for a couple of months :(
Graham
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Hi Graham:
All the talk has been on its wesite at www.warp9td.com , just about ready to go onsale I think..
ARt
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Just knoxing the dust off this one to see how things are going.
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I_just_got_my_Smoothstepper_and_had_some_set_up_problems_between_mach3_and_the_smoothstepper_but_my_question_
now_is_what_do_I_set_Mach3_freq_to_now_or_does_it_bypass_the_freq_settings_in_Mach?
Do_I_use_25khz_or_do_I_keep_moving_it_up_until_there_is_missing_steps?
I_have_used_the_45khz_on_the_LPT1_port_before_the_smoothstepper_before_but_now_with_the_smoothstepper_
connected_I_dont_know_what_setting_to_use..
Thanks
GaryV
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Just set the Kernel to 25KHz, the SmoothStepper doesnt use the Kernel speed so it doesnt matter.
One thing however is in the Beta testing we found that if the Kernel was set higher than 25KHz the feedrate would be reported wrongly in the DRO, It would be doing the correct feedrate just the DRO reported wrong. Setting the Kernel to 25KHz put things back to normal.
I am not sure if this is still the case as I have never put the kernel back up to see.
Hood
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Hi guys,
FYI - I have just installed a SS on one of our systems, and the Mach kernel speed does have to be set to 25KHz. Otherwise, the DRO does not display the correct speed.
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OK I'm going to ask a real newbie type question here. I'm building a CNC miller and have a Lap top with USB's or I can knock up a PC with the bits I've got to run it with a Parallel ports. What are the advantages in having a smoothstepper rather than going straight from a Parallel port? I'm really hoping not to offend anyone with this question but I'm guessing there is a lot more to it than just a Parallel port replacer. My second question is will it have enough I/O to run a 5 or 6 Axis mill ? I'm only building it with 3 axis to start with but would like to expand in the future. Thanks.
Ps how come the spell checker doesn't know what a CNC is ? :)
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Hi Perfo,
You would think that the spell checker on a CNC forum would be set up for that acronym!
Anyway, I have assembled and tested several machines with Mach, and it works pretty good most of the time, but every now and then I will have a "fussy" machine. These are stepper machines with no feedback encoder - completely open loop. I have tried several things to attempt to fix the problem (grounding, shielding, settings, mechanical changes, etc.) to no avail. The problem seems to be the Windows operating system. The reason I say this is because we have seen an improvement in our machines by changing Windows XP to standard PC mode, and making other changes that seemed to improve the consistency in operation of the CNC equipment. Even though we use the same PC model from the same manufacturer, and everything is set up exactly the same from one machine to the next, we will still have an occasional issue with some of the CNC's missing pulses. The point I am making here is that Mach (via the 25 pin parallel port) does work nicely most of the time, but every now and then you will get a fussy PC or Windows system that will not cooperate properly.
The Smooth Stepper takes the "Windows" issues out of the equation when sending pulses to your motor drives. When you use Mach with the parallel port, it essentially turns your PC's processor into a pulsing engine, sending the pulses out to your machine to control motion. This creates a major load on your processor, and other things on your PC. This is why you should designate a PC with Mach only, when using it to run a machine. When you use the Smooth Stepper, Mach sends "trajectory information" to the Smooth Stepper, which then generates the pulses and sends them to the machine through its own processor (in a nutshell). This eliminates any Windows issues when running Mach, but still lets you use Mach's nice interface to control your machine.
I am testing a Smooth Stepper now, and working on tweaking it in. So far, I am impressed with the smoothness, compared to coming out of the parallel port. The homing sequence is a little different, and there are some timing delays for program pause, etc. but consistency is most important to me. You can also run a G-code program, and actually do things in Windows, and the machine will keep running! If you used Mach before, you would understand what a positive change that is. I will keep posting on my results.
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Thanks for the reply. Decisions decisions I have enough bits and pieces to knock up a 2 port PC that I could dedicate to Mach but is only just over the recommend processor speed and thus would run flat out though I could tweak it and put XP on it etc. Or I have a lap to which is the latest speediest without LPT's which I could do all the CAD work on as well as generate G-code and run Mach but this is a Vista machine and won't be dedicated though it will only be running Mach when I'm machining. Now a smoothstepper that has an RJ45 interface would be the best solution as this would also enable me to use any PC on my network (password interlocked) and could keep it well away from the dirty bits.. Will smoothstepper do 5 axis ?
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SmoothStepper can do 6 Axis.
Hood
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Splendid. I've emailed warp9 to get one on order. :-)
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Posted elsewhere under "happy camper" post but want to do whatever i can to thank Brian and greg for their support in helping me solve my missed steps and stalled motor problems. bottom line is we had terrible gremlins which stopped us for 5 weeks. Implemented smooth stepper and dialed it in.
Problems gone, motors hum, and cnc machine is singing happy tunes again.
Its a winning combination.
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It's the way forward I think. It wont be long before you wont be able to find parallel ports on a desktop PC either. They looked at me quite stupidly when I did a tour around the shops asking for a Laptop with parallel ports. "what's one of them ? ", "what would you use it for ? " they asked. How can you answer a questions like that ? The youngster have probably never seen a printer connected to a printer port. :)
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Got mine on the 29th so less than two weeks from order to installed and I don't think you could ask for more than that. I followed the instructions on the warp web site and it install perfectly first time. Greg if you read this some of the links in the write up didn't work but no real problem as the usb driver and plugin was easy enough to find. Anyone else thinking of one be warned the customs dudes add £16 to the price for VAT then parcel force added £8 for their handling fee even with this it was still cheaper to order direct from Warp9td than anywhere else I found :)
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Quick question do I still need a charge pump with a smoothstepper? My thoughts are, as the smoothstepper remains dormant until the correct driver has established communications with it and the software is downloaded. It should be pretty bomb proof and thus highly unlikely to give spurious outputs on power up or PC problems. Are my thoughts somewhere near the mark ?
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The SS is not active until you start Mach as the plugin is loaded every time. So you are correct :)
Hood
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Sad to report that in spite of SS implementation, it couldnt cure every disease.
It did improve some nasty problems and what I believe were windows conflicts but I still experience random motor stalls with spindle running. :-\
Greg and Brian have done their best to help but it appears unrelated to ss. So dont count on it to cure noise or grounding problems but it seems once I cure those I'll be much happier again.
Anyone familiar with VFD noise interference that stalls motors while cutting or losing position and what to do to eliminate it?
Anyone see motors growl and move when spindle is running stationary and you hit reset command button? ???
Try it and see what happens with or without ss, with or without e-charge pump on.
I would be curious if more have this type of reaction. ???
Havent isolated noise source but spindle and vfd starting to get higher on the list of potentials.
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jhicks, I haven't got any experience on small VFD but I have worked on some pretty big ones (several MW's) with once per rev probes providing feed back etc and we had a problem with spurious triggering of the input devices. This was eventually traced to the screening of the cables being earthed both ends over a fairly long run and thus setting up circulating currents in the screen that then appeared to act as some sort of transformer winding. Anyway If all your cables are screened try and keep them physically as far apart as possible and only earth them one end, I would suggest the controller end. You could also use some parasitic beads on supply cables etc (not on any high speed signal cable as it will distort the signal).
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Thanks for the confirmation Hood. I was pretty sure but I always think it's worth asking.
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help? received my smoothstepper and followed instructions on installing how long does it take before red light stops blinking to indicate that all is okay.
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The red LED blinks to let you know it IS ok or at least all three of mine on the machines do :)
Hood
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Thanxs for that i thought there was a problem with it.
cheers
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one more question from an old tired man.
If I drive (1) SS from (2) USB is the working line to drive any stepmotors as before, with a (3) breakoutboard like C11.
Have I understod anything or it is as usual..........
SS, BOB, Step Dir, backlash. The technical is hard to understand but even english.
I think a postprocessor to pour english in top and outgoing Swedish in bottom....... ::)
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Hi,
Yes you understanding is correct. The SS basically replaces the parallel ports. So you connect your BOB to the SS as you would do to a parallel port.
Cheers,
Peter.
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Earlier someone wrote the quotation below... Is it still the case? Or with SS there is no use of icreasing kernel speed anyway?
"FYI - I have just installed a SS on one of our systems, and the Mach kernel speed does have to be set to 25KHz. Otherwise, the DRO does not display the correct speed. "
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There is no need to increase the kernel as the pulsing is done externally to the computer. For some reason having the kernel in Mach set to anything other than 25KHz gives false readings in the DROs but the actual movement will be correct. So set to 25KHz and it will display properly and you can still pulse up to 4MHz with the SmoothStepper.
Hood
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Thanks, Hood!
I was setting up a machine with SS and I found a strange thing:
E-stop was assigned, but not connected so E-stop input of MACH was continously active... I pressed RESET on the MACH screen several times (as I did not see this E-stop active issue) and Mach+SS froze.
Out of curiosity, I repeated this, and whenever I click multiple times on RESET (not fast, just 1 click per second) the system halts... is it normal, or a bug?
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Not seen that happen but then again I always have a E-Stop button fitted.
Hood
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Other strange thing:
WHen I click on FRO increase, or decrease repeatedly (fast), sometimes timeout error message comes...
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Any info on when the extended I/O becomes available/supported on the SS (that extra header on the board)
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I have a Tiger Tech using Smooth stepper and it's plugging into a Talent inverter Pad on Machine. Everything works except Mach 3 isn't controlling Spindle speed. I can change Spindle speed of cutting tool on the Talent pad but it doesn't Register anything in Mach 3. I can start and stop my cutting spindle and move Z anywhere. Need some help.
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Hi Art,
I do not know if this forum is still active, but I am just hoping some could help.
My problem with the smooth Stepper started when I was getting the "Time out error getting data" which was probably my USB cable, but I immediately assumed that my USB driver was corrupted so I removed it from the ".dll" file from the "Plugin Folder" under Mach 3.
I copied my old "SmoothStepper_v17bd.m3p" to the Mach 3 folder and double click the icon but instead of loading the file with auto execute it is now asking me of what program to run it with (see attached pic).
I am now afraid to get into further trouble without asking first.
Someone please help.
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Hi Jerry,
Go to the Warp9 website http://www.warp9td.com/index.php/sw and check that you are running their recommended version of Mach3 and the latest plugin etc.
Download and run their SCU, follow the onscreen instructions and that should do the trick.
Hope this helps.
Tweakie.
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I have the ess smoothstepper and today it stopped three times.What could be the problem?