Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: mt.man on September 28, 2007, 07:11:00 PM
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A long sad story:
Hi there and thanks in advance for your help. My son and I are engaged in a small Luthierary business (we make guitars and other stringed instruments.) A little over a year ago I got the bright idea of moving into the world of CNC. I did some research and realized that a handy guy like me could build a pretty darn good CNC router for not much money. Well I purchased some plans and steppers and a controller and built a really cool router. After researching controller software I concluded that Mach Three was the way to go. So I downloaded the demo version and set up my machine. Everything worked great and pretty soon I was cutting out roadrunners like nobody’s business. Of course I have no use for roadrunners, but I digress. Then came the time to start cutting actual parts. Thus begins the sad story: Let me preface that I am by no means a CAD expert, and I have no desire to become one. What I want to do is scan a drawing of the actual size part that I wish to produce in 2d, convert it to G Code and cut it on my table. One would think this to be fairly simple, and it probably is. What I did that didn’t work was to scan a drawing and open it in Illustrator. I cleaned up the drawing and saved it as a dfx. Then opened it in Mach 3 at which time it told me I couldn’t use it because it had “splines.” Well I did what any red blooded American guy would do; I posted a question to the forum. I got all kinds responses about splines and other great bits of wisdom, but I really don’t want to know anything about splines, I just want to make a part. Shortly there after, I started researching making 3d parts on my table and learned that I would likely have to send tens of thousands of dollars to buy 3d CAD/CAM software and probably have to go back to collage to learn how to design these parts. Did I mention that I make these parts all the time using conventional tools? Long story short, my really cool router table sets in the corner of the shop and has become a table for putting stuff on. It hasn’t been “fired” up for months. Now I’m getting to the point of either figuring out how to make it work for us or putting it on ebay. I would prefer to make this tool work for us, and that is where all of you come in. Here is the situation:
Part One:
I want to cut parts in 2d. The parts are simple but have lots of curves (guitar bodies and such) and pockets. Also I would like to cut inlays and the pockets that they go into.
I have “hard” drawings of every part I need.
I wish to scan them into the computer and convert them to G code and cut them on my table.
I have a scanner.
I have photo shop, Illustrator, flash and fireworks.
I am planning on purchasing the full versions of Mach Three and Lazy Cam.
I don’t wish to buy any more software unless it is cheep and will make this process easier.
Can you folks advise me on how I can go about this process?
Part Two: (after I accomplish the above)
I wish to produce parts in 3D. For example the carved top of a Guitar and the contour of a neck.
It would probably be best to use a digitizing probe as I am not and don’t wish to become a 3d CAD expert.
I haven’t seen an affordable probe/software combo that will work for my setup, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
I should have probably just “bit the bullet” and bought a shop bot, but I didn’t so how can I do this with my rig?
Okay, I have laid out my quandary; I am hoping that you all have some helpful ideas for me. I really would like to use this equipment to make great parts.
Thanks in advance for all of your responses.
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Mt.man
when i decided to cut parts with a computer i was traveling down the same ditch you are.just wanted to cut
simple 2d inlays for billiard cues.don't get caught in the software war.right now mach3 and lazycam are all you need.
you just need to take some time to learn how to draw in g-code it's a lot easier than learning a cam program.with
the way mach3 is setup now you can have mach3 running open edit and start laying down your code when you
want to check save the file and exit.view it in the toolpath window.if it looks wrong open it back up and change
the code.try it just start with a simple box,then try a circle.plus you get to draw true dimension no scaling.plus after
you load a g-code program you can import it into lazycam from mach3 and really put some moves on it.start with a
1 inch box you will catch on real fast.
bill
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Hi mt.man
As far as the 2 (2.5)D is concerned, you're 99.9% there. I don't know about Illutrator - but when you export to .DXF there is often/usually a way to taylor the output, (there's DXF and then there's DXF). What you want is a .DXF exported as AutoCAD Release 12 format (which doesn't contain splines). If not and you're happy with illustrator (someone must be) then google for DXF filters. The point is you're so close. Once you've got such a .DXF, load it into LazyCAM and POST some gcode into Mach3. Job done.
3D - you say you're a handy guy - look at this - it's one of many.
http://www.artsoftcontrols.com/forum/index.php?topic=3857.0
Do not give up - you don't need to draw anything if you don't want to. :)
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I dont know if I should be discouraged or not. I am wanting to do the same things, but with the added need to produce some 1 to 2 mm round "dots" out of mother of pearl. My whole purpose for buying this machine is to do inlay work for pearl and abalone.
I tried using the feature to import a *.jpg file into mach3, and got a gcode file, but there was a slight problem. I started it on a realy fast laptop using the simulator feature, and after 8 hours of running the program was only 1/2 way complete. There has to be a better solution.
Please let me know if you figure out how to do what we want to do.
Ken
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Mt Man,
What would be nice is if there were a tutor near you. So much more can be done in 1 hr of teaching than a month of emailing. That might be a good idea for this Forum, maybe in the support section, way down at the bottom put in a tutor req. or place people can offer to help those near by.
Arnie
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Do you have a basic understanding of the difference between a raster (dots/pixels) file like a jpg and a vector (mathmatical information) file like Illustrator, Corel Draw or a CAD program.
Lazycam (and most other CAM programs) needs vector information to create your gcode.
Also watch the tutorial video's for lazycam on this site, they'll give you a better understanding of what's going on.
Are you using illustrator to convert the jpg to vector?
You do really need to learn to use a vector program, CAD is better as it's designed to create very exact drawings and most CAM programs need endpoints of lines touching or very close, there is usually a tolerance setting to control this.
Get hold of one of the free CAD programs and spend a few days learning it, it'll really be time well spent and the finished results will be much better than a scanned and converted paper drawing.
Don't loose heart, I've been trying to learn to play a guitar for the last 2 years and I'm still rubbish but I keep trying :)
Steve
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taking a scanned image and converting it to vectors you might want to check out vextractor by vextrasoft.
bill
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Well, it's not really THAT Long or THAT sad ;) but seriously... I had some of the same issues.
I know a little bit about Autocad but not really enough to design from scratch. Plus most of the things I wanted to cut were designed in Raster generating programs (i.e. Illustrator, Canvas, Photoshop, etc.)
I did find a cool converter program called ACME Trace art (dwgtool.com). It's a pretty simple program that will trace a raster (.tif, .jpg, .bmp, etc) image and convert it into .dxf.
It's simple to learn. It took me about 45 minutes to learn how to tweak the tracing parameters. If your drawings in Illustrator are Black lines on white background then it will be a "Slam Dunk" for you to trace and convert.
Once converted in .dxf format, you can open in Lazy cam can read it, generate the G-code and then throw it overto Mach 3. It works pretty good BUT, I have found that about 50% of the time trace art doesn't get all the details when tracing photos or I will have to do some size scaling (not really hard to do in L-CAM) or other little "tweaks" in L-CAM to make it work.
HTH!
Sid
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Thanks for all the responses so far, you have been very helpful and encouraging. The first thing that I found is that Lazy Cam has changed significantly since I last played with it. It will now open the files that Illustrator puts out without arguing. That is a huge relief! One of you asked if I know the difference between a raster and a vector, yes I do, as I do a good amount of graphic design, I’m pretty much up to speed on that. As far as using CAD, I’m not all that good, Sure drawing a square box and the like is fine but guitars have all kinds of curves and angles, when I have tried these I really mess them up. On the other hand I can draw virtually anything on paper. Thus my desire to scan drawings and trace them.
Stirling, thanks to the link to the probe, I never dreamed that they were that simple, but it stands to reason. So once a guy has a probe what software does he use to probe the object and generate the G code? I’m sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but I’m really not clear on this.
One last question for clarification:
It seems that the version of Lazy Cam that I downloaded will only simulate pockets and it refers to “Lazy Cam Pro,” is that a real program? Is that what I get when I buy the full version of Mach 3, or is that “vapor ware” that will release at some future date. I need to be able to cut pockets or this whole thing is pretty much useless as I need to cut for inlays. Also, incidentally, when I try to use the “pocket” feature, the program hangs and then crashes. Maybe I’m doing something wrong?
Thanks again, you all are causing me to feel like there is hope after all.
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Lazy Cam Pro is a plug in. It can be doewnloaded here at the top, downloads, plug-ins for $75.00. You'll get it.
Brett
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I downloaded vextraqctor today and also the easycam programs. I did manage to get the vextractor to do an outline of this attached *.jpg file, but when I did a simulationrun it didnt turn out anythng like what the picture file does. This is a simple lightning bolt, which is part of my logo. I have attached the tap file as well if any of you want to try it out. What am I doing wrong?
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Without watching what/how you did what you did it's heard to say. Here is a Lbolt.tap file that I created using trace art and L-cam. Granted the end result isn't fantastic but, frankly the .jpg you posted was a pretty dirty image file so I can't say I'm that surprised. If you look closely at your .jpg and the tool path in Mach I think it's pretty close.
Sid
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Hodges
if you did not register the vextra there is a lot of the vector tools that do not work right.it is hard to clean up the
scanned image.but you can do this and it works pretty good.after you scan then you hit the one touch vector and
you will get some sub menus select one bit black and white then proced.after the cleaning do not try to finish the
file as a vector file.save the file as a raster bmp.open the bmp with windows paint editor and finish cleaning it up.
every black dot that you see will be turned into a chain when you convert it to dxf.after you clean the file and save
it.run it through the acme convertor and turn it to dxf.then load it in lazycam.
bill
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Its not that hard to generate code for your flat pieces, it would be easiest to get some graph paper and draw your plan then use the graph to plot your codes. All can be done in mach and it is not that hard to learn how to put simple code together. start by using the wizards then disect the code till you go AH HAA ha ha ha ! You went this far and it had to be somewhat of a successful journey, but your only part way there. Now pick up and continue on !
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There is another way. There is quality cad programs for very good prices. IMSI has a product called TURBOCAD, and you can use the basic version, no need for the proffesional version. You'd most propably be able to get a package at less than a $100. With this cad package, you can do amazing stuff. In your case, scanned image saved as jpg or bmp or a lot of other formats. Import the pic in TURBOCAD and trace the image in the default layer with a polyline. Make sure the polyline is "closed" at the end of the trace, and shazzam, export the dxf.
Whacko for TURBOCAD
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::) Even better solid edge has a FREE 2D that works also
klmark
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Once again I want to thank all of you for the good advice and help in getting the mill working for my needs. I have downloaded several programs and I am trying each one out to see which is the easiest to understand and the best to do what I need to do.
It is going to take several days to explore all that I have to go on.
Thanks again!
Ken
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I gotta say, this story just isn't complete until we get the obligatory... "And they lived happily ever after"
I hope that part is coming soon! ;)
Sid
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::) Even better solid edge has a FREE 2D that works also
klmark
Post a link please
Whacko
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Hi Guys
Here is the link for the FREE 2D software
http://www.ugs.com/en_us/products/velocity/solidedge/free2d/index.shtml
klmark
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i add another vote for turbocad.... got my version off ebay turbocad deluxe 11, for $14 ...........works fine with lazycam, only thing is i need to explode the curves to make it work. it will allow you to do the curves you need, just take some measurements off a template and mark those points , then bring your curves thru those points.
when your all done save the dxf then explode the drawwing a few times and save the result, that way if you make a mistake you can go back.
dan
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Here's a good link to some free CAD software.
http://www.freebyte.com/cad/cad.htm
Alibre express is very good and it really is free, I found it very easy to learn but you do still need experiance with CAD systems and the basic operations.
Steve
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I downloaded vextraqctor today and also the easycam programs. I did manage to get the vextractor to do an outline of this attached *.jpg file, but when I did a simulationrun it didnt turn out anythng like what the picture file does. This is a simple lightning bolt, which is part of my logo. I have attached the tap file as well if any of you want to try it out. What am I doing wrong?
Hodges how long is the lbolt from end to end? I used Rhino v4 to trace your jpg and it took me a total of 10 minutes. It would need a little tweaking for use but I believe it could be done in 15 minutes. Something lots of people forget is that Rhino has a totally free download, though you are limited to 20-30 saves.
Now to the originator of this thread. There are tons of cheap cad and cam out there and I will post a few links if you want. I will have to go copy them, but it's no biggie! Let me know.
Mike
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I really want the lightning bolt to end up about 2" long. I have tried storing it in inch form and then transfer that to MM form, but that doesnt work either.
I'll have to try out rhino. seems like I might have already downloaded that program already, so it should be easy enough to figure out.
Thanks!
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Hodges what file extension do you want? Also what radius do you want for the pointed areas of the bolt? Do you know what size bit you will cut this with?
Mike
ps I'll post you a file shortly, or not so shortly depending on how sleepy I get! ;D
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the file extension doesnt matter... one that is compatible with Mach3. As far as the radius make it 1/16" because I will be using that size bit to route the wood.
Thanks!
Ken
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Hey Hodges,
Good morning. Well we have a problem with your design and using a .0625" bit. Traced in Rhino, and then scaled to 2" overall length most of the radii were either .004 or .005"! That would make the bit size needed a .010" ! I started rebuilding the lbolt to use a .020" bit, but it does change the look of it some. To get the same "look" using a bit of .0625" will require an overall length of about 12", assuming you wan to keep the scale the same.
I have a sick grandson here with me for a while this morning and I don't know whether he will let me work on the pc or not. I am for now........
Mike
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Hodges here is the dxf file. It is saved as an Acad 2000 dxf. I had to redo it three different times to get it so the cutter could cul everything. It is drawn for use with a .020" diam cutter. Maybe this will help enough to let you see if this is gonna work for you.
Mike
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Hi Guys:
Thanks again for all of the help you have given with my original post, I am making huge amounts of progress and will soon be cutting usable parts. I have downloaded a copy of Cam Bam and I was wondering if anybody had any experience with this software, if I should spend the time to learn how to use it or if it is too much a Beta project to try to use. Also I have been following the discussion about Hodges’ lightening bolt logo and I am rather confused about one part. It seems that in order to cut it he is going to have to use a cutter with a diameter .0625” I was wondering where one would get that small of a bit. The smallest that I can find is 1/16” . As I intend to cut inlays as well I will need to get some of these really small bits.
Thanks again, this is starting to be fun again.
Bill Green
Mountain Craft Stringed Instruments
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Bill, look in the links, tabs just above the video control panel. Look in tooling. You can find the tiny bits there.
Brett
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Bill take a look at this link! http://www.pmtnow.com/ I think you will be amazed. I have not yet done inlay because my current machine has too much flex, which I feel would ruin both the inlays and the bits. the other thing I am wondering is the time involved in inletting an inlay using a bit that measures .005". I understand you would rough it out with larger bits progressing ever smaller, but by the time it is done I am not so sure you couldn't do it by hand.
Do you have a web site?
Mike
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Those are exactly what I need!! Of course I am going to have to get over some of the software issues that I am having, but I’m gaining some real optimism. I do have a website (www.mountain-craft.com) but there really isn’t anything there yet, our production has been so slow, building our guitars with just standard tools, that we have not needed to put up a decent site as word of mouth has given us as many orders as we can fill. I hope to automate the more time consuming tasks so that we can get to a reasonable production output. Thanks again for all of your help.
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Bill
0.0625"and 1/16" are the same size. 1 divided by 16 = 0.0625
Steve
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Steve:
Of course you're right! All this math, I have been spending so much time converting SAE to metric, I blew the easy one. anyway I found the bits I need. Thanks.
Bill
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It is funny what a little poking around on the web will get you. I have found what I need: http://www.precisebits.com/applications/luthiertools.htm plus they have a great deal of useful information about CNC inlay. Maybe this will be helpful for the rest of you as well.
Bill
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I have done the same thing when making a exhaust port header adapter.
I scanned in the old part into Corel draw. Then I drew all the curves, drill holes etc, on top of my scanned picture. When the complete piece was redrawn with corel I just deleted the scanned picture and was left with a new perfect drawing of the new piece. Now, it was a little tedious, but it ended up being better then the original scanned drawing and I could modify it if I needed too. I would think that you would need the full versions of both mach and lazy cam to do this.
But so far I haven't found a perfect way of scanning and posting code in one simple step.
Jonny
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I haven't tried drawing with a CAD program, most of my work is relatively simple, and I can write the G Code straight to the machine (or on here and transfer it).
I have two of the programs mentioned in this post - Turbo Cad - which I find excellent as an accurate drawing tool, and I have just found a version of Coral Draw in my discs - which I must confess, I haven't tried.
I am wanting to design a spoked wheel, which will be then milled out of a solid disc - the wheel is approx 8 inches in diameter and about 1 inch thick. (It does not matter how long the program takes to mill it).
I can draw it in Turbo Cad and probably Coral Draw - but can anybody advise me what program to use to then translate that drawing into G Code for the machine - in fact - forget the wheel - has anybody any experience of converting drawings from Turbo Cad or Coral Draw into G Code.
I have converted simple 2D outlines into G Code milling patterns, using a program called Ace.exe - but how do the programs convert 3D drawings - I ssume they must layer them for the cutter depth.
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You'll need a 3d cam program like Meshcam to convert 3d models in to gcode, and it'll have to be a 3d model not 2d drawings.
Alibra design express is a free very easy to use program, and very powerfull.
It has some good tutorials with it as well.
Meshcam only has simple 4th axis control though so you may need to find a program that can handle rotating 4th axis gcode but you may find that meshcam can handle what you want to do.
Ok just re read your post, it looks like your wanting to mill out a something that looks like a spoked wheel, this can be done in Meshcam, you'll need to make a 3d model and use 2 sided machining.
Also I think you'll have to get a good bit of practice in designing in 3d before attempting to make a spoked wheel, you will be able to do it, it's just the way to go about it that'll take practice.
If I was doing it I think I'd create the rim and hub first using a revolved profile and then add 1 spoke and array it, then mirror the array and do the spokes going the other way in the same way.
I've never done it though so it'll most likely be a lot harder than it sounds ;D
Steve
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Yes - we seem to be a bit off post now, but I was thinking of starting in the lathe for the rim, and facing and bore etc, then mounting it on a circular table to cut the spokes. In that wau I only need one profile, and then turn the appropriate number of degress and do it again.
Still - that's a bit in the furture - thanks for the info.
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JIM have you tired using the NFW wizards?? You can do a great deal with them and it will even complie all your moduals to gether as one complete program. Do you have a drawing of what you want to make??
(;-) TP