Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => Mach4 General Discussion => Topic started by: Bill Anderson on March 16, 2020, 11:07:21 PM

Title: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: Bill Anderson on March 16, 2020, 11:07:21 PM
I have a problem with a Gecko 540 and a WJ200-022SF. After going through the manual I determined that the WJ200 doesn't recognize PWM input to control it. It does however recognize pulse train inputs. "The WJ200 inverter is capable of accepting pulse train input signals, that are used for frequency command, process variable (feedback) for PID control, and simple positioning.
The dedicated terminal is called “EA” and “EB”. Terminal “EA” is a dedicated terminal." pg40 WJ200 quick ref. manual.
I have not been able to figure out what the signal has to look like or how to configure Mach4 how to deliver it through a pmdx411 and a gecko 540. If anyone has done this or knows how I would really appreciate if you would share what you did.

thanks
bill a.
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: joeaverage on March 17, 2020, 01:43:48 AM
Hi,
Hitachi inverters a good quality and much respected....and they can't be controlled by an analogue input....twaddle!
Hitachi probably invented it!!

See attached from the manual. The first is the choice of frequency source. The second (page 4-5)shows quite clearly the possibility of
controlling the frequency (of the VFD output) by using a potentiometer OR a 1-10V analogue input OR a 4-20mA current input, and
as you point out pulse inputs, whatever they are. ALL of these input modes are virtually industry standard, and Hitachi is one of the
standards of the industry.....of course it has analogue input.

The PMDX-411 has only one port as does the Gecko540, you simply don't have enough IO to start buggering around with pulse inputs.
The PMDX and the Gecko support analogue output in the form of a 0-10V output derived from PWM. Don't try and re-invent the wheel,
use what PMDX, Gecko and Hitachi have provided.

Craig
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: thosj on March 17, 2020, 10:33:56 AM
I SUPPOSE you could say it's not controlled via PWM! It's controlled by 0-10v which is, in turn, controlled by PWM!! I actually own that inverter and it works just great with PWM/0-10v controlling it.
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: Bill Anderson on March 17, 2020, 11:19:13 AM
I SUPPOSE you could say it's not controlled via PWM! It's controlled by 0-10v which is, in turn, controlled by PWM!! I actually own that inverter and it works just great with PWM/0-10v controlling it.
Would you explain how you have the WJ200 configured and how you have configured Mach4.
Thanks
bill a.
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: thosj on March 18, 2020, 09:05:37 AM
I SUPPOSE you could say it's not controlled via PWM! It's controlled by 0-10v which is, in turn, controlled by PWM!! I actually own that inverter and it works just great with PWM/0-10v controlling it.
Would you explain how you have the WJ200 configured and how you have configured Mach4.
Thanks
bill a.

Wow, where to start? Page 41 of the WJ200 manual shows how to wire 0-10v, so there's that. But you need to specify things like motor poles, accel/decel values, base frequency (60HZ?), max frequency you want to use. Only you will know these values. So, briefly, WJ200 manual page 81 for motor poles, page 51 for input source and frequency you desire.

As for setting up Mach4, Jeff Birt had a nice write up for a G540 and Mach3, don't know if there's something around like that for Mach4. Google is your friend here. Here's Jeff's Mach3 write up.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=2ahUKEwjv35SrhaToAhVH2qwKHRJmAvQQFjADegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.soigeneris.com%2FDocument%2FGecko%2FUsing_the%2520Gecko_G540_VFD_Output.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2K_aYtD6ctlpFYAj2BLKON

From that you should be able to figure out pins to use and basic setup, which will apply to Mach4, sort of!! The Warp9TD web site has wonderful Mach4 setup info for their SmoothStepper, much of which would apply to YOUR setup regarding PWM setup, so lots to learn there.

Frankly, if you know nothing about VFD's, you have to start a bit more basic, learn how to wire it, learn how to use it to control your motor from the VFD control panel first, maybe. Then, once it's setup and your motor is wired correctly and working from the control panel (the VFD basically COMES setup for this, but you will minimally need to specify your motor poles, base frequency, max frequency), then venture off into externally controlling it.

If you know nothing about this and don't want to dig in, then you might need to get someone local to you to come and set it up for you. These things are complicated to figure out and the manuals are written such that the info is THERE, but you have to figure out how to apply it all. You only need 5% of the stuff in the manual, but figuring out where that 5% IS is the problem.

All that said, you bought likely the BEST, most versitile, VFD you can buy. Open the PDF manual, from the CD or the web, and print out the entire parameter section along with the HOW TO PROGRAM section, and study it, with highlighter in hand, until you understand it. I don't think it'd be TOO hard to blow up your motor or maybe even the VFD by NOT understanding before you get your screwdriver out.

Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: Bill Anderson on March 18, 2020, 11:45:25 AM
I know how to configure a VFD, I have the WJ200 manual. My motors are running fine manually with the external control panel. I have wired the Gecko 540 and can turn the VFD off and on, Forward and Reverse through Mach4. I can't control the speed using the the 10v reference pin H and logic gnd L to the G540 and pin 14 on the Gecko back to pin EA on the VFD. I have set the PMDX411 to PWM and pin 14. I have set A001 to 06. If you can tell me how you have set your VFD to use PWM/0-10v to control the speed through Mach4 I would appreciate it as I can't seem to make it work.
Thanks
Bill A.
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: joeaverage on March 18, 2020, 01:47:30 PM
Hi,
try wiring the return to pin O of the VFD. Pin O IS the analogue input pin, it shows it clearly, 0-10V, on the pic I posted
which came from the manual.

Craig
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: joeaverage on March 18, 2020, 03:28:13 PM
Hi,
see attached pic from the Gecko 540 manual.

It clearly shows three connections to the VFD.
Pin 7 Main Terminal Block of  the 540 to pin L of the WJ200
Pin 8 Main Terminal Block of  the 540 to pin O of the WJ200
Pin 9 Main Terminal Block of  the 540 to pin H of the WJ200

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the so called 'PWM' output of the G540 is a digital pulse train....it's not....internal to the
G540 there is a PWM to analogue output circuit. If you hook the 10VDC supply to the PWM output circuit (pin H to pin 9) and its return (pin L to pin 7)
and probe with a mulitmeter between pin 8  and pin 7 of the G540 you should see a 0-10V DC voltage that varies with the commanded speed in Mach.
That varying DC voltage is  an OUTPUT ( pin 8 ) of the G540 and is connected to the voltage INPUT (pin O) of the WJ200.

Craig
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: thosj on March 18, 2020, 06:07:52 PM
No, no, set VFD parameter A001 to 01...Control Terminal, NOT 06...Pulse Train Input. Set A002 to 01...Control Terminal

Page 41 of the manual shows how to wire, but you must have that, and Craig showed it again, a couple times!!

Tom
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: Bill Anderson on March 18, 2020, 08:05:31 PM
Many thanks to those who replied. I have it running the spindle now both fwd & rev from mach4. I still haven't got the speed calibrated but I know Mach4 is sending a control voltage to the vfd. I proved this by setting the pin 14 output to low and had the vfd run away. When I reset it to high and sent a M3 S400 from the MDI it took off and went to 1354 rpm. I was able to reduce the rpm with the spindle override, dropping it all the way down to 908 rpm at 50%. I am hoping that you might have some additional parameters to set in the VFD to calibrate the voltage fed from the gecko to the rpm output of the VFD.

thanks
bill a
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: Bill Anderson on March 18, 2020, 08:36:38 PM
I think I found it!!! The C081 parameter scales the input voltage seen by the VFD. But the A011 - A015 parameters have an effect also. If someone has already figured this out please share. With all the parameters on this VFD I am hoping to be able to control spindle speed down to the rpm

thanks
bill a.
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: joeaverage on March 19, 2020, 01:09:38 AM
Hi,

Quote
If someone has already figured this out please share. With all the parameters on this VFD I am hoping to be able to control spindle speed down to the rpm

I think your enthusiasm is running away with you, you will never successfully control the speed of a VFD driven spindle using
analogue control to greater accuracy than a few percent.

In the first instance you are powering an induction motor which, by definition, must have some slip. Therefore the commanded frequency
IS NOT THE ACTUAL RPM but about 3% higher than spindle rpm depending on load.

The second issue is why bother? Its nice to have control of spindle speed but within 5-10% is adequate. For years we've used
manual mills and lathes WITHOUT being able to close control the spindle speed and the parts still came out fine, if 3000rpm works
in the old manual mill, despite the optimum being 4000rpm, then my CNC will work at 3000rpm as well.

Craig
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: thosj on March 19, 2020, 08:53:43 AM
As right as Craig is about getting the RPM down to THE RPM, yours is nearly 4x. Should be able to get somewhat better than that!! I wouldn't chase parameters in the VFD, I'd chase PWM frequency in your setup or something. Perhaps Mach4 Pulley setup, or whatever it's called now. If you put a volt meter on the output and you're getting anywhere NEAR 0 to 10 volts, the VFD with default parameters, should be way closer than 4x.

Actually, with a 4x discrepancy, I'd be looking at the VFD's motor plate and pole parameters, parameters B012 and H004. Other than that, you lost me;

The problem with chasing VFD parameters is you BETTER remember, write down, everything you changed so that when you figure out the Mach4 setup and your electronic equipment setup/wiring, you can get the VFD back to where it was!!! Just my experience. When the VFD comes out of the box, other than matching your motor pole/nameplate settings and frequency of your electricity (60hz and default in the US), then setting your control input, it should just work.

Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: Bill Anderson on March 19, 2020, 11:11:02 AM
Thanks, I did get to around 10% I was just getting anal with all those various parameters having an effect.

bill a
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: joeaverage on March 20, 2020, 07:39:49 PM
Hi,
given that you have a UC100 as motion controller you have little flexibility because the IO is so scarce.

I will point out that if you used an ESS you would, if you employed all three ports have 51 input and outputs, quite a step up from 17 inputs and outputs in the UC100. In addition the ESS now offers PID spindle control so spindle speed within 1% is eminently feasible.

Craig
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: Bill Anderson on March 21, 2020, 10:40:18 AM
I have a USB smooth stepper that never worked for threading and crashed on a regular basis. I bought it over 10 years ago and although I kept looking for updates or fixes they never appeared. When they came out with the ESS I did not hurry out to buy one. In fact it surprises me that they are still in business. I am using a PMDX411 one of the first to support Mach4, still works, crashes from time to time but no where near the frequency of the Warp9 product. Just sayin'
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: Steve Stallings on March 21, 2020, 11:55:13 AM
The Ethernet SmoothStepper (ESS) works reliably and is well supported. Just sayin'     :)
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: joeaverage on March 21, 2020, 02:21:19 PM
Hi,
to my knowledge BOTH the PMDX-411 and the ESS are good.

The reason that I suggested the ESS is because of the much expanded IO. The PID spindle control is
just the icing on the cake.

Craig
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: Bill Anderson on March 21, 2020, 08:46:15 PM
Thanks for the recommendations. I'll probably review all the forums before upgrading my other ShopTask.
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: joeaverage on March 21, 2020, 09:18:42 PM
Hi,
at the current time there are six credible, and one not-credible (as opposed to incredible :D) manufacturers of
Mach4 ready motion controllers.

PMDX, you are aware of, you might like to consider the PMDX-424, it has two ports developed and thus has double the IO
of the PMDX-412. PMDX do have threading but not realtime THC.

The UC series of controllers by CNCDrive, are good quality and stable however they have the least realtime supports and
misses on threading and realtime THC.

PoKeys 57CNC is good qualitiy and has a fairly complete set of realtime supports EXCLUDING realtime THC. The 57CNCdb25
is very very similar to what you have already, ie only one port.

The Hicon Integra by VitalSystems is good quality and has a full suite of realtime supports, some of which occur an extra
licence fee. In addition it can be activated (at additional cost) to handle closed loop analogue servos. Starts at $600USD
WITHOUT extra activations.

The ESS by Warp9 enjoys probably the most complete suite of realtime supports including threading, realtime THC and laser
vectoring/rastering. It is not a feedbback controller like the Hicon. Retails at $180, and requires a BoB or BoBs.
The previous model USS does not have a Mach4 plugin and is all but obsolete.

CSMIO/P and CSMIO/A are good quality but have a buggy Mach4 plugin, and contrary to their history have gone right
off the boil with their support. As they start at 600Euro I find it hard to recommemnd them despite their quality and undoubted
performance with Mach3. Their performance with Mach4 is just too patchy.

XHC is the only Chinese manufacturer claiming a Mach4 plugin but its so buggy I don't think anyone uses it. Avoid like the plague.

Craig
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: rvasud on March 28, 2021, 09:42:01 AM
Hi,
My name is Razvan and I am new to CNC, I have been trying to find a solution to my problem for a while now but without success.
Because Bill Anderson's setup is the closest to mine I am asking it here.
I have: Mach4, UC400ETH, GECKO 540, Hitachi VFD WJ200-007MF with a 0.8 Spindle.
All my connections are per the instructions in the manuals and every thing is working in manual mode but I cannot start the spindle from Mach4.
If at all possible I would ask this forum for some direction on how to make the Spindle run and change the RPM from MACH4.
Thank you and I appreciate any help!
Title: Re: Configuring Mach4 with Hitachi WJ200 without Modbus
Post by: Bill Anderson on March 28, 2021, 04:06:35 PM
It will be a couple of days till I get out to the shop