Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach4 General Discussion => Topic started by: rcaffin on December 19, 2019, 04:56:23 AM
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At present I am using Mach3. My fully-licensed version is on the PC running my CNC, with an ESS. But I also have a copy of Mach3 running on my office desk with no hardware attached. This is where I do all my programming and initial testing. I seem to remember that it is legal to run a copy like this for Mach3.
Question: can I do the same with Mach4?
Cheers
Roger
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Yes you can. ;)
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Thanks Tweakie.
Andy at Warp9 is trying to persuade me to switch to get better threading than I WAS getting under Mach3, but I think I have sorted that out now.
Cheers
Roger
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Hi Roger,
Mach4's licensing is much tighter than Mach3 but not unreasonable.
With Mach4 each PC as defined by the unique PCID is licensed. With one Mach4Hobby purchase you may have up to five PCs
licensed at once.
You manage your licenses on-line at the NFS website. If you buy another PC you can license it within minutes 24/7.
If you have a PC which dies you can (on-line) release the license for it and get a new one for its replacement PC. You are allowed seven
such transactions in a two year period.
Craig
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Hi Craig
Those license conditions were not obvious from reading the web site. Where are they?
I would suggest ArtSoft should make those conditions more visible, probably on the 'front page' of the description. I think doing so might be effective.
Cheers
Roger
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Yes, the license conditions are pretty much hidden. They are probably so intransparent with it because the license restrictions may discourage people from buying Mach4. If I had known it earlier I would have thought twice whether to buy a license.
However here are the licensing details: https://www.machsupport.com/my-account/license-maintenance/license-maintenance-instructions/ (https://www.machsupport.com/my-account/license-maintenance/license-maintenance-instructions/)
I wish they would add more details e.g. what exactly causes the PCID to change. Especially because the PCID is not only changed when changing hardware. Some settings in windows 10 cause mach4 generate a new PCID. So be careful when changing settings. It could waste license renewals.
best regards
Brandon
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Some settings in windows 10 cause mach4 generate a new PCID. So be careful when changing settings.
Tell me more, please. I had thought that the PC ID was a hardware thing, not a SW thing.
Mind you, 7 changes per year for a total of 12 is an awful lot of dead PCs ... So far, in 8 years, I have had one change of PC.
I imagine that they are fed up with the Chinese pirates selling hacked versions of Mach3. I can sympathise.
Cheers
Roger
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Tell me more, please. I had thought that the PC ID was a hardware thing, not a SW thing.
I do not really know exactly what changes the PCID. However one setting that changes the PCID that i am aware of is the network computer name.
Mind you, 7 changes per year for a total of 12 is an awful lot of dead PCs ... So far, in 8 years, I have had one change of PC.
I imagine that they are fed up with the Chinese pirates selling hacked versions of Mach3. I can sympathise.
Yes that is very generous. But consider that some windows updates or settings cause the PCID to change too. Thus your renewals consumption is not strictly bound to hardware failures.
I personally dislike the license system because it makes you depended on the Mach4 license service. Consider this: Machines last way longer than a companies' life. I have several machines in my shop whose manufacturer does not exist anymore. Machines older than 20 years, still running Windows 98. If i would have to renew a license via internet it would simply be not possible anymore. That's why I consider the license system of Mach4 a great pity. It's not a smart long term solution for me. Imagine in 3 years there will be Mach 5 or Mach 6. Will the Mach 4 license system always be available? I guess not as everything is discontinued at some point. I agree that they should and must do something against the pirates. But I dislike how they did it. Some competitors sell USB dongles which contain a license. Maybe that would have been a better solution. Besides that I do not think any software is uncrackable. Mayor software these days are cracked and some have a multi-million dollar budget to prevent cracking. When it happens ... it happens. Serving the paying customers with regular and great feature updates is the only real thing that can fight piracy in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I use Mach4. It is great software and I can recommend it with good conscience if one is willing to accept the license restrictions.
best regards
Brandon
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Hi,
That's why I consider the license system of Mach4 a great pity.
I disagree....strongly.
With the open slather licensing of Mach3 NFS or Artsoft, as it was then, lost huge amounts of revenue. The Mach4 licensing is
not to prevent genuine purchasers from using the software but to prevent the lost revenue.
All of the developments over the last year alone, thinking script based THC, Zero Brane, mcSurface plugin and more that I have forgotten, derive
from the revenue that NFS generates. The more revenue, the more they can invest in Mach4.......employing a technical document writer to update
the product manuals for instance, the better. We as paying customers benefit because of that investment.
If we expect a 'professional level CNC software solution' then we must expect to contribute and abide the rules just as we would any other commercial
software vendor.
Craig
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If we expect a 'professional level CNC software solution'
Aye, there's the rub ...
Does the guy buying a sub-1$k cheap router from China expect pro-level SW?
But then, is Mach4 aimed at that guy? Or would he be better off with LinuxCNC or GRBL? Maybe.
What do I want?
Mach3 works for me at present, but if and when Mach4 can do everything Mach3 can, for both Mill and Lathe, and when it has had all the bugs ironed out, maybe ...
Cheers
Roger
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Craig, I agree that pirates are indeed a problem especially for companies that mainly focus on software.
But let me ask who is impaired by the counter measures Mach4 implemented with the new PCID license restrictions? It's not the pirates as they use a cracked version anyway. They just continue to steal software, and they do not have to spend a single thought on PCID changes or license renewals. It's the honest and paying customers who are really impaired. People who use a cracked Mach 4 version can continue to use it even 20 years later, with no restrictions. They can change hardware however they like. However I as a paying customer have to cope with the restrictions and probably cannot use it 20 years later when the license renewal servers are discontinued or Mach5 is superseding Mach4.
What that means is that the honest customers are at a disadvantage compared to the dishonest customers. Making a cracked version more attractive to the customer than a legal version. I could imagine that now even more people change to a cracked version because of that.
Mach4 is the only software I am aware of that uses such license system. I have never encountered other software that required license renewals when changing hardware.
If we expect a 'professional level CNC software solution' then we must expect to contribute and abide the rules just as we would any other commercial
software vendor.
I agree but is the burden the customer has to carry now really a definite solution to piracy? I doubt so. Piracy is going to happen - no matter how many countermeasures are implemented. Other professional software vendors do not need such license system and others can continue to develop awesome features despite having a more customer-friendly license system. I mean there exist even open source software with awesome features that do not require license management at all (LinuxCNC, GRBL etc). I believe that there are better, more user-friendly anti-piracy measurements than the current license system.
However I just have the viewpoint of a semi-professional customer. It's not my business to decide how a company fights piracy. But after all it is my choice to use whatever software I like. I chose Mach 4 mainly because it is cheap and it was quick to get it working. I did not read much into the license system before my purchase. I already bought it so I continue to use Mach 4 for now. I mean i could live with the software bound to the PCID. But I was very dissappointed when I found out the PCID is changed by windows updates or by some simple settings in windows. Thus requiring me to tinker around with Mach 4 licenses and PCIDs. I am not sure that I would go along with Mach 4 in the future when retrofitting other machines. If I find other software that works as good/quick as Mach 4 I will most likely switch. My control manufacturer is even offering it's own CNC software. Maybe I will try that.
For Mach 4, I hope for at least more transparency of how the PCID is generated. That would at least remove some fear of it.
best regards
Brandon
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It is an interesting thought that with Mach4 one might, somewhere in the future after several PC upgrades, be locked out, either because of so many upgrades or maybe because of an NFS server being discontinued. It would not be unreasonable for a bit of good CNC HW to last more than 20 years for instance.
I am well aware that quite a few other servers have been discontinued over the years, leaving the users helpless.
Oh well, I still have Mach3.
Cheers
Roger
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Hi,
But let me ask who is impaired by the counter measures Mach4 implemented with the new PCID license restrictions?
PCID restrictions....really??? Have you used Mastercam or AutoCad latley? You want to talk restrictions then look to the CAD/CAM software market leaders.
Mach4 is the only software I am aware of that uses such license system. I have never encountered other software that required license renewals when changing hardware.
I am not familiar with any other software that is licensed in exactly this manner however NFS did not invent it. I will try to track down the reference to the name
of the system and who crafted it in the first place.
Craig
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Hi,
the thread I recall is this from CNCZone:
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/mach-4-a/393202-mach-4-pcid-changed.html (https://www.cnczone.com/forums/mach-4-a/393202-mach-4-pcid-changed.html)
And the thread indentifies the licensing system to be Enigma Protector:
https://enigmaprotector.com/ (https://enigmaprotector.com/)
Craig
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Hi,
the thread I recall is this from CNCZone:
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/mach-4-a/393202-mach-4-pcid-changed.html (https://www.cnczone.com/forums/mach-4-a/393202-mach-4-pcid-changed.html)
And the thread indentifies the licensing system to be Enigma Protector:
https://enigmaprotector.com/ (https://enigmaprotector.com/)
Craig
Interesting. Thanks for the link Craig. That really brought some light on the license system.
PCID restrictions....really??? Have you used Mastercam or AutoCad latley? You want to talk restrictions then look to the CAD/CAM software market leaders.
Yes but you should compare not with CAD/CAM software but rather with software that controls hardware. PLC Software and such.
I am not really against making it bound to the PCID. I am against the fact that the PCID can change so unexpectedly and that you have to use an online service to renew it. But after reading the link you provided i am a little more relaxed. It seems that the computer name is the only software thing that influences the PCID. But why is that nowhere documented on the Mach 4 Websites?
Best regards
Brandon
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Hi,
Yes but you should compare not with CAD/CAM software but rather with software that controls hardware. PLC Software and such.
Why not?. Employees of a CNC software company need to be paid just as surely as employees of a CAD/CAM software
company. Further I would suggest to you that as Artsoft was founded in 2001 that NFS already has an 18 year history.
In previous posts the concern seemed to be that a piece of CNC hardware should last 20 years an therefore the company
that supports it MUST last 20years also. Well Artsoft/NFS is well on the way to establishing that. Companies take on a life of their
own and NFS will still be around in 20 years IF it remains profitable. As a customer of NFS I hope that they do remain profitable,
including my own modest contribution to that outcome, as their continued existence is to my advantage.
I am against the fact that the PCID can change so unexpectedly and that you have to use an online service to renew it.
This I understand, I rather doubt the NFS like the idea that a Windows update can cause the PCID to change either, but
the on-line service is great. How else would you have it done? Send a letter in the mail to have a flesh and blood
person generate your license and post it back?
With Mastercam you need an internet connection every time you boot the software, you can have it boot up without a
connection for a short period of time but by and large you need a connection.....just to boot the software. This is a program
that costs $20,000 and $2500 annually. At least with a stable PCID the Mach4 license is likewise stable and perpetual.
My machine PCID has not changed since the day I loaded Windows 7, over five years ago.
But why is that nowhere documented on the Mach 4 Websites?
Bryanna explains the situation:
https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=36585.msg250765#msg250765 (https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=36585.msg250765#msg250765)
You may have seen some of my posts where I am starting a new mill build. I have elected to use Delta 750W Series B2
AC servos. Just a plain servo, and I have two of those, not counting the more expensive braked servo, is $500USD.
I could buy 212 Mach4Hobby license for the price of just one servo. Lets put Mach4Hobby into
perpective........at $200 (perpetual) its as cheap as chips. I pay more annually for carbide tools than a Mach4Hobby
license!!!
Craig
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Bryanna explains the situation:
https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=36585.msg250765#msg250765
Now that is REALLY relevant. Thank you.
Seems to me the target of the licensing system is not the honest user but the Chinese pirates.
Cheers
Roger
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Hi Roger,
Seems to me the target of the licensing system is not the honest user but the Chinese pirates.
Yes, that is 100% correct. That is exactly what inspired Brandon to say:
But let me ask who is impaired by the counter measures Mach4 implemented with the new PCID license restrictions? It's not the pirates as they use a cracked version anyway
It is the honest user whom has to jump through hoops to use software he/she has legitimately paid for because the
Chinese among others want to rip it off.
While I dislike intensely some of the licensing and validation techniques used by the big software manufacturers they are desperately
trying to protect their property......I understand it. NFS has not gone down that road....yet, but they could and maybe they will have
to if hackers keep cracking Mach. As much as I would dislike having on-line validation if that's what NFS HAS to do to stay in
business then so be it. Certainly if they are not in business I lose out too.
Craig
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As much as I would dislike having on-line validation if that's what NFS HAS to do to stay in
business then so be it.
Would not work. Could not work.
Having the PC which controls the CNC online means that you would be subject to random crashes when Windows decides to download a large update. No, you can NOT turn off all the updates in W10, even if you try. It would simply send most users back to W7/Mach3 or off to LinuxCNC/UCCNC.
One possible solution to this problem is to embed a key throughout the SW: not just in one place. NEVER in just one place. So many 'License Managers' rely on a single key subroutine called from a few places, but that will fail when someone finds the critical 'return from subroutine' (RTS) instruction which returns a single True/False flag. You just patch that single line of code to always return True.
True story: someone managed to find this RTS instruction in the Digital Equipment (DEC) License Manager and mentioned it at a conference I was at. The DEC Licensing Manager was there, and he suggested that this was really counter-productive. He pointed out that if you want to play with, say, the DEC COBOL compiler (much $$), just ask and DEC would give you a temporary license for free. What the paid license really gave you was the telephone support, and for a commercial organisation it was the support which mattered.
So - embed a distributed license manager if you must, but providing updates and support to licensed customers is a better solution. Each customer gets a unique license number. That does not need an internet connection. Yeah, sure, it raises operating costs a bit - not as much as the increased sales revenue though.
Cheers
Roger
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Hi Roger,
Would not work. Could not work.
There are many software packages that work exactly that way, Mastercam among them. If you really don't like
having online validation then buy a dongle, an extra $1500USD.
No, you can NOT turn off all the updates in W10, even if you try.
Windows 10 Pro and Windows 10 Enterprise can both have updates disabled.
Windows 7 Embedded and I imagine other Embedded Windows OS's allow not just disabling updates but not even load
the update code onto the PC. My machine PC has Windows 7 Embedded and it CAN'T update because there IS NO update
code for it to do so.
Whether Mach4 is being pirated at a rate which is harming NFS's ability to trade is beyond me. I would guess that
the NFS strategy has always been to sell to OEMs and Mach4Industrial, that's where the real money is. OEM's would
paint a target on their back if they tried peddling pirate Mach and are not likely to do so. A realistic and cost effective
licensing system for OEM's is the primary requirement and is in fact exactly what pertains now.
Hope Christmas finds you and family in good cheer. If I understand correctly you are in Australia? If so how are the
conditions (heat, fires) in your locale? I think the kindest gift that could be given to any Australian at this time is a good
rainfall!!
Craig
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There are many software packages that work exactly that way,
To be sure, but they are not controlling a Real Time system! I dare say many of us have seen the 'Run out of data' error message a few times. You can lose a 4 hour milling operation that way - and break cutters.
Windows 10 Pro and Windows 10 Enterprise can both have updates disabled.
My understanding is that the 'disable' does not work too well. At one stage I believe they were downloading the update regardless and then deciding whether or not to install it.
Me, I am running stock W7 with as much turned off as possible and no internet connection at all. Actually, there is no internet in the workshop. It works.
Australia - yeah. Fires - yeah. Our farm.
Cheers
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Hi,
Holy s*********t.....that looks bad. I'm not really a religious sort of person but I'll pray for rain for you guys.
Craig
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Yeah, it's not good. So far it has burnt over 5 million hectares (>12.3 million acres). It could be months before those fires are out.
The fire fighting is being done by volunteers in the Rural Fire Brigades. I was one once. They are getting a bit tired: 12 hour shifts.
So our Prime Minister thought it would be a good time to take a week or two of holiday in Hawaii. It was a PR disaster of course, so he came back and cuddled orphan koala bears for the cameras. But he still wants to start new coal mines.
Meanwhile, towns in Australia are running out of water - literally, because of the drought and the extreme pumping by big irrigators - often illegally. But the gov't does not wish to cut them off.
Cheers
Roger
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Hi Roger,
I'm sorry to say it but Australia has more to risk than most when it comes to global warming yet successive governments
are underplaying it, not perhaps as brazenly as the US but still... New Zealand cannot claim to be doing any better.
My folks live in central Victoria, and by their own description have had a better run than the north of the state and NSW
but my mother told me they had 44.30C the other day. If the power went off I think that would kill them, they are
nearly 90.
Craig
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90 and still at home?
They must be tough.
Sit in the bathtub with cold water.
Brazen? Trump, Boris and Morrison - all totally corrupt and contemptible.
Cheers
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Hi,
we have a fairly young (nearly 40) women as Prime Minister. I don't pretend to support her party, being essentially 'tax
and spend', however of all the things she may be, she is NOT CORRUPT.
Integrity I can respect, even if I don't agree with the person.
Craig