Machsupport Forum
Third party software and hardware support forums. => HiCON Motion Controller => Topic started by: Fencer on May 28, 2019, 07:14:43 AM
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Please forgive me if this question has already been addressed .... but I could not seem to see anything in the Hicon topic.
I have a 3 axis CNC router, controlled by Mach4 and Hicon Integra 7766.
I know that Vital Systems offer a 'MPG06 Unit w/ DB15M + EStop Button + Differential Encoder' ... so this may seem like a stupid question???
I was wondering if anyone could recommend a 'best-option' remote controller for use with my Hicon/Mach4 system?
I did purchase a hand controller off eBay (It looks exactly the same as the Vital Systems one but it came with loose wires and a Chinese instruction sheet; I tried wiring it up but couldn't get it to work). I don't know if I need to enable something in Mach4? There are settings which I do not understand - like 'Enable VSI MPG', Selection of MPG0, MPG1, MPG2, etc.
I have seen some wireless ones available for Mach4 but do not know if they are a good idea.
What I really want to know is .... Can someone recommend something that they have personally been using without problems ... or is it best just to pay Vital Systems the $295, plus shipping to UK, plus import duty (probably $450 by the time it arrives). :-\
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Smaller photos
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Hi,
I use a VistaCNC P1A and have done for three years. It is USB connected to my Mach4 machine.
It has its own plugin and is independent of the motion controller.
The only wireless pendant I know of is by XHC. The plugin is written by a user not XHC, the company have little
interest in making a working plugin. Their (supposedly) Mach4 ready motion controller doesn't work and they have
shown no interest in fixing that either. All in all I would avoid XHC altogether.
https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=37581.0 (https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=37581.0)
Craig
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Great Craig - Thanks again - very helpful
... so there's no real advantage to using the DB15 pendant connection on the Hicon Integra?
i.e. I'm better off getting a USB pendant from VistaCNC; and controlling the machine through/via the Mach4 software?
And (let's say for examples sake), if your P1A pendant broke and you had to get a new pendant, would you order another P1A or would you get an alternative ... say, a M1, M2, P1A-S, etc. ?
Or is the P1A the best (most uncomplicated, and best supported by it's associated plugin)?
Anthony
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Hi,
... so there's no real advantage to using the DB15 pendant connection on the Hicon Integra?
I am not aware of any advantage but guess that there maybe.
First a USB connected pendant requires its own plugin. For a long while the VistaCNC Mach4 plugin was considered buggy.
I myself had no problems but others did.
I imagine there would be no conflict with a Vital Systems pendant, it does not require its own plugin, it is instead integrated
directly to the Hicon.
I bought the P1A when I was still using Mach3, and it worked perfectly. I chose it in part on the basis of cost, the P1A
has very nearly all the functionality of more expensive models but a few less frills, including the LCD screen which I considered
to be unnecessary. At that time, about three years ago, VistaCNC had a Mach4 plugin so when I migrated to Mach4 I
installed the plugin and started using the P1A in Mach4. As I recall it took a few attempts to get it to work but its been fine
ever since. It can be a bit picky about the USB being plugged in once a Mach4 session is in progress. I find that it needs
to be plugged in when you fire up Mach in order for the USB connection to be established.
There have been a number of users who have struggled to get some models of VistaCNC pendants to work, and in my estimation
all the models for which problems were encountered had LCD screens whereas mine did not. It seemed to make sense to me
to arrange Modbus comms from Mach TO the pendant were problematic, but my pendant did not require comms in that direction.
I was never able to establish this as a fact, I encouraged some users to disregard the screen, but they refused....'if I cant
get all working......I'll not put up with 90% working......instead I'll huff and puff and %%$&*&^%!!!'
A short while ago VistaCNC have released a new Mach4 plugin. Reports by some of those same users who had difficulties previously
report good results. As my installation is not broken I'm not going to try to fix it with the updated plugin.
To my knowledge VistaCNC is the only manufacturer of stand-alone Modbus pendants that have a Mach4 plugin.
All others are either parallel wired hardware pendants like the Vital Systems or are based on the Xbox controller or the
ShuttlePro, which have plugins written by users and NFS respectively. XHC have two models which are reputed to work with
Mach4, one a USB connected version and the other a wireless version. XHC has taken no part in the development of the required
plugins and the hobbyist users who wrote the plugins have been kind enough to share but are not in a position to support a plugin.
There is sufficient evidence on the forum for me to actively dissuade you from buying an XHC pendant.
I have personal experience operating the VistaCNC P1A with good results.
I have only anecdotal reports regarding the Xbox controller and the ShuttlePro, but there are sufficient users to suggest
that they do work and certainly enough users for you to get a first hand opinion if you seek it.
I do not recall any reports about the Vital Systems unit. I would be EXTREMELY surprised if it did not work perfectly.
Vital Systems may not be cheap but can be relied to work as advertised.
Craig
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thats how i would wire that thing
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and this should be the setup
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here: http://www.vitalsystem.com/portal/cnc/motion/MPG_datasheet.pdf
is a pinout from the original pedant
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Hi,
... so there's no real advantage to using the DB15 pendant connection on the Hicon Integra?
I am not aware of any advantage but guess that there maybe.
First a USB connected pendant requires its own plugin. For a long while the VistaCNC Mach4 plugin was considered buggy.
I myself had no problems but others did.
I imagine there would be no conflict with a Vital Systems pendant, it does not require its own plugin, it is instead integrated
directly to the Hicon.
I bought the P1A when I was still using Mach3, and it worked perfectly. I chose it in part on the basis of cost, the P1A
has very nearly all the functionality of more expensive models but a few less frills, including the LCD screen which I considered
to be unnecessary. At that time, about three years ago, VistaCNC had a Mach4 plugin so when I migrated to Mach4 I
installed the plugin and started using the P1A in Mach4. As I recall it took a few attempts to get it to work but its been fine
ever since. It can be a bit picky about the USB being plugged in once a Mach4 session is in progress. I find that it needs
to be plugged in when you fire up Mach in order for the USB connection to be established.
There have been a number of users who have struggled to get some models of VistaCNC pendants to work, and in my estimation
all the models for which problems were encountered had LCD screens whereas mine did not. It seemed to make sense to me
to arrange Modbus comms from Mach TO the pendant were problematic, but my pendant did not require comms in that direction.
I was never able to establish this as a fact, I encouraged some users to disregard the screen, but they refused....'if I cant
get all working......I'll not put up with 90% working......instead I'll huff and puff and %%$&*&^%!!!'
A short while ago VistaCNC have released a new Mach4 plugin. Reports by some of those same users who had difficulties previously
report good results. As my installation is not broken I'm not going to try to fix it with the updated plugin.
To my knowledge VistaCNC is the only manufacturer of stand-alone Modbus pendants that have a Mach4 plugin.
All others are either parallel wired hardware pendants like the Vital Systems or are based on the Xbox controller or the
ShuttlePro, which have plugins written by users and NFS respectively. XHC have two models which are reputed to work with
Mach4, one a USB connected version and the other a wireless version. XHC has taken no part in the development of the required
plugins and the hobbyist users who wrote the plugins have been kind enough to share but are not in a position to support a plugin.
There is sufficient evidence on the forum for me to actively dissuade you from buying an XHC pendant.
I have personal experience operating the VistaCNC P1A with good results.
I have only anecdotal reports regarding the Xbox controller and the ShuttlePro, but there are sufficient users to suggest
that they do work and certainly enough users for you to get a first hand opinion if you seek it.
I do not recall any reports about the Vital Systems unit. I would be EXTREMELY surprised if it did not work perfectly.
Vital Systems may not be cheap but can be relied to work as advertised.
Craig
Wow Craig, that's probably the most comprehensive and informative reply I could have hoped for. This sure will save me a lot of trial-and-error and messing about.
So, the XHC is off the table because the producers don't support Mach4 and some user reports have been bad? And though someone has been kind enough to openly share a plugin, it may not work with my particular setup.
The VistaCNC models with LCD displays could potentially be problematic due to 2-way comms? … that's ok - I don't think I need that feature anyway.
I don't think I'll bother looking into the Xbox or ShuttlePro controller. Personally, I don't like the idea of using a games console or multi-media controller.
SO … that leaves me with 2 choices, either:
- VistaCNC P1A at around $200
- Vital Systems Hicon Integra MPG06ED at around $400/$450 (I remember the postage and duty for my controller was very high for whatever reason)
Hmmm?? … food-for-thought.
But here's a question ….
If you plug the Vital Systems Hand-Wheel into the Hicon Integra Controller, don't you then have to configure all the pin inputs in Mach4?
In other words, aren't you sending instructions FROM the controller TO Mach4 (then, in-turn, Mach4 sends signals BACK to the Hicon controller, and on-in-turn-to the CNC machine)?
So, essentially this is no more advantageous than VistaCNC/USB control structure?
… or am I misrepresenting/misunderstanding the workings of the Hicon controller/Pendant?
Anthony
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- Vital Systems Hicon Integra MPG06ED at around $400/$450 (I remember the postage and duty for my controller was very high for whatever reason)
IMHO your pedant is a clone of the MPG06ED
But here's a question ….
If you plug the Vital Systems Hand-Wheel into the Hicon Integra Controller, don't you then have to configure all the pin inputs in Mach4?
the configuration i posted in REPLY#7 is from Vital System Manual and recomended for MPG06ED and should also work for your pedant.
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Hi,
But here's a question ….
If you plug the Vital Systems Hand-Wheel into the Hicon Integra Controller, don't you then have to configure all the pin inputs in Mach4?
No, that is not my understanding. The Vital Systems pendant interfaces with the Hicon directly. You may have to configure the Hicon
somewhat but the MPG sends signals to the Hicon which enacts the movements commanded. Those movements are signaled back
to Mach so that the DROs remain in synch but the movement occurred without Machs intervention.
The operating principle is somewhat different with the P1A (or Xbox or ShuttlePro). The P1A signals Mach using a Modbus protocol
and then Mach signals the motion controller to make the moves.
I am not aware of any compelling reason to favor one over the other.
One difference between the two solutions is that the manual MPG has at most 15 wires to communicate to the Hicon. That will
limit the number of features that a manual MPG can offer WITHOUT going to a bigger (more wires) cable.
A USB connected pendant can string together long streams of data and so offer more features. In addition the pendant can receive
data as well, hence the LCD screen.
The manual MPG is simple and robust. Further I think TPS is correct, the MPG you have is a clone of the Vital Systems unit and
if you are prepared to learn how to connect it to your Hicon you may not have to spend anything.
The VistaCNC solutions work but are very much more complicated and the probability of incompatibility goes up......having said
that I've been using mine for three years without major drama.
Unless you are under time pressure I would follow TPS's advice an try to get your existing pendant working. It will almost
certainly teach you about your controller and very probably work quite satisfactorily, it is after all pretty simple.
Craig
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- Vital Systems Hicon Integra MPG06ED at around $400/$450 (I remember the postage and duty for my controller was very high for whatever reason)
IMHO your pedant is a clone of the MPG06ED
But here's a question ….
If you plug the Vital Systems Hand-Wheel into the Hicon Integra Controller, don't you then have to configure all the pin inputs in Mach4?
the configuration i posted in REPLY#7 is from Vital System Manual and recomended for MPG06ED and should also work for your pedant.
Hi TPS
Absolutely unbelievable.
I can not tell you how much I appreciate your response.
It is so kind of you to take the trouble to study the diagram and make notes on it for me.
I did not expect anyone to be so helpful. Needless to say ... I really appreciate your response.
I am a newcommer to this forum, and people have been so helpful and kind.
Okay TPS - yes, it does appear to be the same controller (except that mine has only 4 axes - XYZ and 4 the Vital systems has 6). This was the reason that I bought it in the first place [it was a lot cheaper - it cost about $60]
I have wired it up as per your instructions. And I m in the process of configuring Mach4.
I will reply shortly to let you know if it has worked.
Thank You
Anthony
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- Vital Systems Hicon Integra MPG06ED at around $400/$450 (I remember the postage and duty for my controller was very high for whatever reason)
IMHO your pedant is a clone of the MPG06ED
But here's a question ….
If you plug the Vital Systems Hand-Wheel into the Hicon Integra Controller, don't you then have to configure all the pin inputs in Mach4?
the configuration i posted in REPLY#7 is from Vital System Manual and recomended for MPG06ED and should also work for your pedant.
Hi TPS
Absolutely unbelievable.
I can not tell you how much I appreciate your response.
It is so kind of you to take the trouble to study the diagram and make notes on it for me.
I did not expect anyone to be so helpful. Needless to say ... I really appreciate your response.
I am a newcommer to this forum, and people have been so helpful and kind.
Okay TPS - yes, it does appear to be the same controller (except that mine has only 4 axes - XYZ and 4 the Vital systems has 6). This was the reason that I bought it in the first place [it was a lot cheaper - it cost about $60]
I have wired it up as per your instructions. And I m in the process of configuring Mach4.
I will reply shortly to let you know if it has worked.
Thank You
Anthony
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Hi,
in my previous post I thought that the Hicon directly enacted the motion commanded by the MPG.
Re-reading and studying the screenshot of TPS reply#7 I am less than sure. It certainly seems that the Mach4 plugin requires
inputs to be defined. I assumed this provided the means of the Hicon communicating back to Mach so that Mach could
stay in step with commands from the MPG, but maybe that's not the case. Maybe, as you suggested the MPG signals
Mach THROUGH the Hicon, then Mach signals the Hicon to make the moves.
Either way it happens, just how is not as clear as I thought it was.
The shot attached (reply#7) suggested that the Mach plugin needed to be updated to accept the MPG inputs. The other inputs,
namely the axis selector switch are defined in the Hicon plugin but are relayed through the Mach plugin.
I use an ESS and it does similarly. If I define an input to the ESS it automatically updates the Mach plugin as well.
Not all, but most inputs are treated that way.
Craig
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Okay Craig - I would really like to get a control pendant working - but no, I am not in a mad rush (especialy if it saves me $200).
So, as you and TPS have suggested, I have wired-up the (what looks to be a Vital Systems clone) pendant, and am currently trying to configure it in Mach 4.
I cannot get it to move my machine.
However, it does light up some of the green lights in Diagnostic -> Hicon -> Hicon Status Screen; indicating that I probably have a configuration problem. In TPS's post showing the Hicon Configuration, I don't understand what those settings are (MPG0X, MPG0Y, MPG0inc0, etc.), or why they have been assigned P14 1,3,5,6,4,2,0 ??
This is what happens in Hicon Diagnostic ...
First of all P14 8 and 9 inputs are showing as ON (green light on)
Press the enable button on side of controller ======= P14 0 and 3 light up
Press emergency stop button ======== P14 10 lights up
Turn wheel clockwise ===== P14 9 Flickers
Turn wheel anticlockwise ===== P14 8 Flickers
Turn left black knob (OFF x Y Z 4) ======= nothing happens
Turn right black knob (x1 x10 x100) ======= nothing happens
Anthony
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Sorry .... this is what happens ....
First of all P14 8 and 9 inputs are showing as ON (green light on)
Press the enable button on side of controller (whilst axis selector is in off position) ======= P14 2 lights up
Press the enable button on side of controller (whilst axis selector is in x position) ======= P14 1 & 2 lights up at same time
Press the enable button on side of controller (whilst axis selector is in y position) ======= P14 2 & 3 lights up at same time
Press the enable button on side of controller (whilst axis selector is in z position) ======= P14 2 & 5 lights up at same time
Press the enable button on side of controller (whilst axis selector is in 4 position) ======= P14 2 lights up
Press emergency stop button ======== P14 10 lights up
Turn wheel clockwise ===== P14 9 Flickers
Turn wheel anticlockwise ===== P14 8 Flickers
Turn left black knob (OFF x Y Z 4) ======= nothing happens
Turn right black knob (x1 x10 x100) ======= nothing happens
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Press the enable button on side of controller (whilst axis selector is in off position) ======= P14 2 lights up
means MPG0 Inc is selected
Press the enable button on side of controller (whilst axis selector is in x position) ======= P14 1 & 2 lights up at same time
means MPG0 X and MPG0 Inc is selected
Press the enable button on side of controller (whilst axis selector is in y position) ======= P14 2 & 3 lights up at same time
means MPG0 Y and MPG0 Inc is selected
Press the enable button on side of controller (whilst axis selector is in z position) ======= P14 2 & 5 lights up at same time
means MPG0 Z and MPG0 Inc is selected
Press the enable button on side of controller (whilst axis selector is in 4 position) ======= P14 2 lights up
means MPG0 Inc is selected but MPG0 A is not selected -> Looks like wiring problem
Press emergency stop button ======== P14 10 lights up
means E-Stop button is wired correctly but is is not assigned at the Moment we will have a look for this later
Turn wheel clockwise ===== P14 9 Flickers
Turn wheel anticlockwise ===== P14 8 Flickers
means the turn wheel seems to bee connected correct
Turn left black knob (OFF x Y Z 4) ======= nothing happens
Turn right black knob (x1 x10 x100) ======= nothing happens
i think you have to press the enable button hold it and turn the knob to see P14 1..x seen changing.
i also think you have to press an hold enable button during Operation.
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However, it does light up some of the green lights in Diagnostic -> Hicon -> Hicon Status Screen; indicating that I probably have a configuration problem. In TPS's post showing the Hicon Configuration, I don't understand what those settings are (MPG0X, MPG0Y, MPG0inc0, etc.), or why they have been assigned P14 1,3,5,6,4,2,0 ?
MPG0 X, MPG0 Y, MPG0 Z, MPG0 A is the selection of the axis you whant to move
MPG0 Inc0, MPG0 Inc1, MPG0 Inc2 is the step distance you whant to move (0,001 0,01 0,1 1mm...)
P14 1,3,5..... are the physical Inputs from Hicon where your Hardware signals (pedant Signals) are wired zo.
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Yes TPS, you are right.
If I hold down the enable button, the axes move .... excellent work!!
I only have 3 axes ... so I don't need position 4.
Now - how do I assign emergency stop button in the configuration screens please?
And, how do I make it so that I can enable from pendant (and not have to hold button permenantly)?
Thanks
Anthony
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Now - how do I assign emergency stop button in the configuration screens please?
here it starts to get hard for me because i don't have a hicon Controller and don't even use Mach4,
but lets try
Device -> something with Hicon
Input Name -> something like [P14] Input 10
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And, how do I make it so that I can enable from pendant (and not have to hold button permenantly)?
i am affraid there is no way to skip this enable button (without linking it inside the pedant), but it is some Kind of safety.
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You are exceptionally good at this - considering you do not have Hicon nor use Mach4
Okay - great I got that working. Thank you
Now how do I make the enable button work please?
Anthony
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Sorry, I did not see the last post about the enable button.
... so, I can link it inside the pendant? .... how so ?? ... Please?
Thank You
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i never had one of those pedants (this type), but i think if you open the pedant (dont know how),
there will only be two wires going to this enable button, and These two have to be wired together.
or try to use tape to hold the button pressed, would be the simply way.
or find an other "mechanical" way to keep it pressed
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Oh sorry - you mean - permenantly short the button inside the pendant ..... so it is always active?
Is there no way to make it activate the 'Enable' button in the Mach4 GUI (just as if you were hitting the button with the mouse)?
I can see that the vital systems pendant appears to have the same button - but it does not say 'enable' and there is a plastic cap over it.
What do you think is going on there ?
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Hi,
change the input associated with the enable button from active high (or low ) to active low (or high) in either (only one)
plugin, either Mach4 Control or the Hicon plugin. It has the same effect as wiring the switch closed.
Craig
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Hi Craig
There is no option in either of the screens to associate an input pin with the enable button.
... unless the enable button has an alternative-name/alias in the drop down???
Anthony
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Hi,
you have assigned inputs to match the pendant in the Hicon plugin and those inputs can be active high or active low.
Craig
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I changed them all to active low but it makes no difference ???
It must work in a different way (unless I need to do something else as well)?
I reckon if I change that button on the side to one that stays-on/clicks-on (then clicks-off when you press it again), I'll be in business. It's the next best alternative. I forget what the name for those buttons are ... is it toggle?
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make all Settings like they have been.
this enable button seems to be hardwired in the com line for all Switches,
because it is not assigned anywhere, so it must be hardwired.
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have a look here:
http://www.markusmechatronics.com/HandradAnschluss.jpg
S1 is the enable button, do not worry about the wire Colors of this digramm,
it is just an example.
EDIT:just checked the Colors are the same.
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Okay TPS - Thank You - but I do not understand wiring diagrams very well?
Is my best option to change the switch for a push-button toggle switch (one that stays on when pressed ... then goes off when pressed again) ?
And do I need to connect the B- purple and black wire to pin 4 ?
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And do I need to connect the B- purple and black wire to pin 4 ?
if everything is working without i think there is no Need.
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Yes - all working BUT I still need to hold down the button to make anything work.
However, I understand the pendant/diagram much better now.
Anyway, really good TPS Thank you very very much for helping me.
Anthony
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So it looks like this is pretty much fixed up for now.
And I don't even need to spend a single cent on a pendant.
Though, I now know where to go if I fancy a pendant with extra functionality.
I REALLY CANNOT THANK YOU GUYS Craig/TPS (in alphabetical order) ENOUGH.
You are both very kind to take the time answering my questions and guiding me.
Now to see if I can get this machine to run some code :)
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Yes - all working BUT I still need to hold down the button to make anything work.
Anthony
Hi guys. Just a quick question.
Isn't that momentary enable button there for a purpose ?
To maybe isolate the MPG from any inadvertent action, say a bump or other unintended input ?
Jogging is isolated while code is running, but having the pendant enable "latched" seem like a bad idea (to me).
I assumed you had to pick it up to use it, and the button is very ergonomically placed on the side .
Just wondering, thanks,
Russ
:)
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Yes - all working BUT I still need to hold down the button to make anything work.
Anthony
Hi guys. Just a quick question.
Isn't that momentary enable button there for a purpose ?
To maybe isolate the MPG from any inadvertent action, say a bump or other unintended input ?
Jogging is isolated while code is running, but having the pendant enable "latched" seem like a bad idea (to me).
I assumed you had to pick it up to use it, and the button is very ergonomically placed on the side .
Just wondering, thanks,
Russ
:)
Yes Russ, that's what TPS suggested earlier in the thread.
However, I had gotten it into my thick head that it was supposed to be an 'enable' button for Mach4 - just because it says 'enable' on it. But I think the label is just a coincidence. It means 'enable' in a different context. I wasn't listening carefully enough, and completely missed the point when TPS mentioned it was some kind of safety.
So yes, I do believe on reflection you are both right … it is a safety feature - a momentary enable to ensure you intended using the turn-wheel.
Top job people - thank you
Anthony
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I would just like to add at this point …
With hindsight, I'd recommend to potential purchasers of the Hicon 7766, that it probably makes more sense to buy the MPG06 Pendant at the same time; unless you have at least a couple of spare days to work out the wiring, ask the questions, and to be fortunate enough to get the answers.
That said though - I have very much enjoyed learning about the workings of this pendant, and have gained some valuable insight into my Hicon controller and Mach4 configuration. It's great to talk to knowledgeable people who are kind enough to share their insight.
… It's not the destination so much as the journey.