Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: collincv on March 26, 2019, 01:19:41 PM
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Hey Guys,
I got some (a lot) of jerk in my stepper when I jog. Sitting on cardboard on my Kitchen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vance_Miller) table it sounds like a midget with a hammer beating it to death. I have wired up my X stepper and only that. I'm trying to get good movement before I move on to ordering more material and parts. I'll list the specs below.
Hardware:
Dell M70 Laptop XP (circa 2005) with docking station including parallel port
3 PCS Nema 34 Stepper Motor with Dual shaft 1600oz-in holding torque
3 PCS Stepper Driver with 7.8A replacing MD882
3 PCS Power Supplies for 350W,60VDC
1 PC Breakout Board
Settings:
CV is on
Dip Switches are set to 2000 pulse/rev
Dip switches are set to 3.5 peak amps
Wiring is correct to my knowledge from everything I've seen so far
Ports and Pins are correct from every forum/tutorial i've seen (have to have steplow active on in order to get movement)
kernel speed is 25Khz
MaxNC mode is off
look ahead is at 20 lines
Here is where I am lost. Everyone and I mean everyone has told me the steps per in motor tuning is what you need to mess with. It was set at 2000, which is what my dip switches are set at. (no one has ever said anything about step pulse or dir pulse (they are both set at 0)). From what I understand the 2000 is how many steps to make an inch or mm, whatever your settings are. Where am I going wrong? Any advice is appreciated.
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Hi,
it sounds like the parallel port is not running smoothly.
Run DriverTest.exe ( in the Mach3 directory) and post a screen shot of the result. It gives a pretty good indication
of how the parallel port is running.
Craig
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It said something about high frequency or fast something, I can't remember exactly, I will post as soon as i get home
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???Does this mean I can't use this laptop as a parallel port?
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Hi,
that is very poor, certainly as is the parallel port would fail utterly to run your machine.
There was, of a time, a list that circulated on the forum about a number of items which could be deleted /set/optimized
for the purposes running a parallel port.
I updated to Mach4 and an Ethernet SmoothStepper 2-1/2 years ago and so have had rather less
interest in Mach3's parallel port since.
Your options are:
1) Persevere with the laptop, deleting components and otherwise optimizing it, I estimate only a modest chance of success.
2) Buy yourself another PC, a desktop model Windows7 32 bit or earlier, preferably with a built in parallel port
3) Buy yourself an external controller like an Ethernet SmoothStepper. I have a very low opinion of Chinese made
controllers, often they don't work at all or don't support all the realtime functions required and you won't get any help
form them when you encounter problems.
4) Take up knitting :D
The advantage of a good external controller is that then you can run just about any PC you want, XP through Windows 10,
32 OR 64 bit, laptop OR desktop. If you do like the idea of an external controller may I suggest that you get one that
has a Mach4 plugin, then should you wish to update at a later time you can change without the extra cost of a Mach4 ready
controller.
Craig
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Dip Switches are set to 2000 pulse/rev IS DEFINITELY WRONG.
Stepper is usually 1.8deg/step so is 200pulse/rev
Assuming you use 8 microsteps, you should set to 1600 pulse/rev.
(10 is not a binary number unlike 1,2,4,8,16)
look ahead should be 200 lines or more
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Hi,
Dip Switches are set to 2000 pulse/rev IS DEFINITELY WRONG.
Rubbish, many stepper controllers have microstep regimes which include multiples of five or ten.
Craig
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Does this mean I can't use this laptop as a parallel port?
Not as it is now. It shows a pulsed speed of 2154. This should be close to 25,000.
You need to turn off all power saving features.
You may need to install Windows as Standard PC, instead of ACPI.
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Hi,
ftp://machsupport.com/Extra%20Information/XP_Optimization_Guide.txt (ftp://machsupport.com/Extra%20Information/XP_Optimization_Guide.txt)
Craig
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Hi,
Dip Switches are set to 2000 pulse/rev IS DEFINITELY WRONG.
Rubbish, many stepper controllers have microstep regimes which include multiples of five or ten.
Craig
ONLY if you have "FIVE PHASE" stepper motors which is not commonly used in DIY CNC.
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alright, so instead of using my laptop from school from '05 that is POS (was great back in the day) I'll choose option 3.
do you have a recommendation for the best smooth stepper for the money? Do I still run my BOB in addition to this? I'm assuming theres a ribbon cable style plugin to DB25 that I need to buy as well? Currently just looking at a picture of warp9 ESS and it has 3 ribbon cables with an expansion port. Do I need a BOB for each port to run each axis or does one port have the capibility to run 3, possibly 4 axis?
Hi,
that is very poor, certainly as is the parallel port would fail utterly to run your machine.
There was, of a time, a list that circulated on the forum about a number of items which could be deleted /set/optimized
for the purposes running a parallel port.
I updated to Mach4 and an Ethernet SmoothStepper 2-1/2 years ago and so have had rather less
interest in Mach3's parallel port since.
Your options are:
1) Persevere with the laptop, deleting components and otherwise optimizing it, I estimate only a modest chance of success.
2) Buy yourself another PC, a desktop model Windows7 32 bit or earlier, preferably with a built in parallel port
3) Buy yourself an external controller like an Ethernet SmoothStepper. I have a very low opinion of Chinese made
controllers, often they don't work at all or don't support all the realtime functions required and you won't get any help
form them when you encounter problems.
4) Take up knitting :D
The advantage of a good external controller is that then you can run just about any PC you want, XP through Windows 10,
32 OR 64 bit, laptop OR desktop. If you do like the idea of an external controller may I suggest that you get one that
has a Mach4 plugin, then should you wish to update at a later time you can change without the extra cost of a Mach4 ready
controller.
Craig
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Hi reuelt,
ONLY if you have "FIVE PHASE" stepper motors which is not commonly used in DIY CNC.
Wrong again, the pics I posted came from the Gecko website and is the G201 driver which is for a two phase stepper.
The other pic is from the Leadshine website again for a two phase stepper. Neither of these companies make or supply
five phase steppers or drivers.
By the way I am familiar with five phase steppers, I use Vexta 5 phase steppers on my machine.
Craig
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Hi,
Dip Switches are set to 2000 pulse/rev IS DEFINITELY WRONG.
Rubbish, many stepper controllers have microstep regimes which include multiples of five or ten.
Craig
ONLY if you have "FIVE PHASE" stepper motors which is not commonly used in DIY CNC.
His steppers I guessed are two-phase. That is why he needs binary numbers (1,2,4,8,16,32) for microstep
Detailed information :
1. Nema 34 stepper motor:
Technical Specifications
Part No.: 34HS5435C-02B2
Frame Size: NEMA34
Phase: 2 Phase
Step Angle: 1.8 degree
Current: 3.5A
Rated Voltage: 5.6V
Resistance: 1.6 Ohm/phase
Inductance: 22mH/phase
Holding torque: 1600oz-in (10.5N.m)
Detent torque: 24.5N.cm
Rotor inertia: 3600g.cm²
Number of wire leads: 4 (Red A+ ,Green A- ,Yellow B+ ,Blue B-)
Weight: 5kg
Length: 151mm
The diameter for motor shaft is 14mm
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Hi reuelt,
yes even that two phase stepper CAN be driven at 2000 steps per rev....if you would look at the information I provided
you might learn something new.
Craig
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That's not right,
If you have 2 or 4 coils (2-phase motors) you cannot divide by 5 or 10
If you have 5 coils or 10 coils (5-phase motors) you CAN divide by 5 or 10.
His motors are jerky now because 2 or 4 coils cannot divide by 5 or 10.
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Hi collincv,
do you have a recommendation for the best smooth stepper for the money?
I answered a similar question a few days ago.
https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=39731.msg266363#msg266363 (https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=39731.msg266363#msg266363)
The short answer is that a UC100 or a 57CNCdb25 is the cheapest at around $120. But they are limited to one 'ports
worth' of IO, enough for the simplest of machines only.
Staring around $150 through to $200 there are several controllers with at least two ports and up to five ports worth of
IO. Several of those models require the use of a breakout board such as you already have. You may want yet another if
you want to use all those spare inputs and outputs.
Currently just looking at a picture of warp9 ESS and it has 3 ribbon cables with an expansion port. Do I need a BOB for each port to run each axis or does one port have the capibility to run 3, possibly 4 axis?
To answer specifically about the ESS it has three ports and an expansion port. To my knowledge no one can use the expansion
port yet. If you fit just one ribbon cable to attach one BOB you will end up with exactly the same situation that you have
been using for a while, ie 12 outputs and 5 inputs. If you want to add a second ribbon cable and BoB you could have
another 12 outputs and 5 inputs, or optionally, as inputs are sought after, 13 inputs and 4 outputs.
Should you decide on an Ethernet SmoothStepper you will need a separate 5V regulated power supply of at least 500mA,
you cant power the ESS form the PC.
Craig
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Hi reuelt,
That's not right,
If you have 2 or 4 coils (2-phase motors) you cannot divide by 5 or 10
Yes you can and if you follow this link:
https://www.geckodrive.com/stepper-motor-controls.html (https://www.geckodrive.com/stepper-motor-controls.html)
You will find the attached document......and please note this is for a two phase stepper. Gecko is probably the most
respected brand in the two phase stepper driver market, and roughly half of their designs have microstepping
regimes of either multiples of five or ten.
Craig
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I think the info is misunderstood.
We are talking about discrete MICROSTEPS which is a division of a whole step. The number of magnets and coils will decide how you can divide equally. If is it not equal, the motor will only give you the nearest microstep (round up or round down) - that is why the motor is jerky.
By the way, another user who complained that his motor COULD NOT moving, took my suggestion of 1600 microsteps and everything from then works for him.
If the engine is misfiring buying better tires, and cockpit and bucket seats, and GPS is NOT going to fix the problem.
Sorry.
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Hi reuelt,
We are talking about discrete MICROSTEPS which is a division of a whole step
That is 100% correct. The stepper driver I have pointed out to you can perform 10 steps within one fullstep.
Many thousands of CNCers around the globe do likewise, including ALL the Gecko G540 users, tens of thousands of users,
and they have ONE and only ONE resolution, 2000 step per rev. The Gecko G540 does not have any DIP switches
or similar to change the resolution....is fixed at 10 microstepps or 2000 steps per rev.
Here is a supplier a little closer to home:
https://www.homanndesigns.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=24&products_id=157&zenid=18dpasdjevd4tp8lm14a9ou8d2 (https://www.homanndesigns.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=24&products_id=157&zenid=18dpasdjevd4tp8lm14a9ou8d2)
Notice the description:
allowing it to run in full step, half step, 5 microstep and 10 microstep modes.
If is it not equal, the motor will only give you the nearest microstep (round up or round down) - that is why the motor is jerky.
That is wrong, in this case the OP's laptop is doing such a poor job of running the parallel port that I'm surprised the
motor ran at all. Did you see the jitter....900 plus micro seconds, the kernel period is 40 microseconds!!
By the way, another user who complained that his motor COULD NOT moving, took my suggestion of 1600 microsteps and everything from then works for him.
I remember that post, the guy had some ridiculous microstepping regime in place, something like 51200 step per rev and
consequently his kernel speed was to low to run it at all.
Craig
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2000pulse per rev is only correct if you have a 0.72deg stepper motor.
360deg /.72 give 500 steps per rev
4 microsteps then gives 2000 pulse per rev
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Hi,
2000pulse per rev is only correct if you have a 0.72deg stepper motor.
360deg /.72 give 500 steps per rev
4 microsteps then gives 2000 pulse per rev
Wrong again......2000 steps per rev is achieved by a 10 microstep regime on an ordinary two phase 1.8 degree/ full step
stepper. If you bother to look at and read any of the documentation I've posted you would see that.
Craig
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joeaverage,
Thanks for all the info so far.. So let me get this straight because this is what I'm getting from what you're saying. UCC is the cheapest, whichever I am a tightass, but I want this to be right, and not halfass it like I have a ton of things in my life and have to buy something twice. So I get the warp9. I'd need a ribbon to parallel port adapter to run my current breakout board. (My experience with gecko (on a plasma table) currently was that I couldn't run my gecko with my floating z and proma 150 due to inputs, but if i had the proma SD THC, i would have been fine, so inputs were limited.) So if i want x,y,z home switches on a router, with the capability to run a plasma on the same machine, i'm understanding I basically need 2 breakout boards, 2 ribbon adapters and the warp9 ess?
Hi collincv,
do you have a recommendation for the best smooth stepper for the money?
I answered a similar question a few days ago.
https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=39731.msg266363#msg266363 (https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?topic=39731.msg266363#msg266363)
The short answer is that a UC100 or a 57CNCdb25 is the cheapest at around $120. But they are limited to one 'ports
worth' of IO, enough for the simplest of machines only.
Staring around $150 through to $200 there are several controllers with at least two ports and up to five ports worth of
IO. Several of those models require the use of a breakout board such as you already have. You may want yet another if
you want to use all those spare inputs and outputs.
Currently just looking at a picture of warp9 ESS and it has 3 ribbon cables with an expansion port. Do I need a BOB for each port to run each axis or does one port have the capibility to run 3, possibly 4 axis?
To answer specifically about the ESS it has three ports and an expansion port. To my knowledge no one can use the expansion
port yet. If you fit just one ribbon cable to attach one BOB you will end up with exactly the same situation that you have
been using for a while, ie 12 outputs and 5 inputs. If you want to add a second ribbon cable and BoB you could have
another 12 outputs and 5 inputs, or optionally, as inputs are sought after, 13 inputs and 4 outputs.
Should you decide on an Ethernet SmoothStepper you will need a separate 5V regulated power supply of at least 500mA,
you cant power the ESS form the PC.
Craig
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Hi,
UCC is the cheapest, whichever I am a tightass, but I want this to be right, and not halfass it like I have a ton of things in my life and have to buy something twice
The UC**** series is good value but is also the least developed of the Mach4 plugins, no backlash comp, no lathe threading
or THC. All of these function are supported in Mach3 but not Mach4 (yet).
The ESS is somewhat more expensive but when THC is released over the coming days maybe weeks it will be the
most completely developed mid priced Mach4 controller, with the $600 Hicon Integra having had all those features
for a while.
So if i want x,y,z home switches on a router, with the capability to run a plasma on the same machine, i'm understanding I basically need 2 breakout boards, 2 ribbon adapters and the warp9 ess?
Yes, from your description two ribbon cables and one extra BoB will be required. A C10 BoB is an economical alternative
at $23. IDC header to DB25 ribbon cables are about $5 each.
Craig
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Hi,
sorry I've got a few different threads going on....you are not especially concerned about using Mach4?
In which case either the ESS OR the UC300 (or maybe the UC400) would be fine as they both are fully developed
for Mach3.
Craig
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Craig,
Well if I build a good enough table, I plan on taking the license from my dad's machine that has mach3 purchased and possibly selling his. Or running linux cnc. I've dove into ubuntu a few years back and linux isn't terrible, just take some re-learning again. From everything I've read so far, mach4 is about 8 times as much for the industrial version and there's not much difference between the mach3 and mach4. I have no personal experience with it so take that with a grain of salt. BUT if I ever wanted to be able to use mach4 in the future, I want to be able to do it without having to buy something else. It's like not buying 4 wheel drive when you only need it "in case of emergencies"
Casey
Hi,
sorry I've got a few different threads going on....you are not especially concerned about using Mach4?
In which case either the ESS OR the UC300 (or maybe the UC400) would be fine as they both are fully developed
for Mach3.
Craig
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Craig,
Also, on Warp9's website it says the ESS already has THC for plasma
Threading for lathes (single pulse per rev for RPM, or encoder A for RPM. Index pulse required for synchronization)
M10/M11 support for lasers/ water jets
Backlash Compensation
THC for Plasma Cutting
Runs with Mach3 and Mach4
does that mean it has been released?
Casey
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Hi,
the ESS has THC support in Mach3 and will have in Mach4 very soon now.
Craig
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Hi collincv,
From everything I've read so far, mach4 is about 8 times as much for the industrial version and there's not much difference between the mach3 and mach4.
Both Mach3 and Mach4 are Gcode interpreters and as such if you present a Gcode job to a Mach3 machine and
it cuts a part in a certain way then I would expect Mach4 to do exactly the same.
What is not apparent from its outward behavior is that Mach4 is or can be very much more flexible. It may
well be that you don't require powerful programming ability to have your machine operate properly
and in that circumstance Mach3 is entirely adequate.
There is a new feature of Mach4 that Mach3 does not have, its called Surface Map. The essential idea is that
you probe the surface of the bed of the mill an Mach records that data and thereafter corrects all moves to
accommodate the surface not being flat. There again it may not be strictly necessary for your machine but it does
serve to point out that Mach4 is progressing with new ideas and features whereas Mach3 is not.
That does not even touch on the Mach4 probing module or the Zero Brane editor/debugger......
It is true that Mach4Industrial is $1400 but Mach4Hobby that you and I use is only $200, with Mach3 still $175.
Mach4Industrial has only one feature that Mach4Hobby does not have, Macro B programming. If you don't
know what it is its because Mach3 never had it either. The real reason that Mach4Industrial is so much more
expensive is support. You can ring NFS anytime with a problem and you go to the top of the queue.
It is fairer to compare apples with apples and Mach3 should be compared to Mach4Hobby. The difference
in price is modest,$25 or 12.5%. Mach3 can be installed on any number of machines, Mach4 on up to five
machines.
Personally the modest differences in price and licensing are subsumed by Mcah4 being light years ahead of
Mach3 in terms of programming flexibility and new and upcoming features.
Craig
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Craig,
I see there is many advantages to mach4 over mach3. Building my own machine I don't see the advantage yet when I have mach3, but hearing what you said makes mach4 sound very appealing. I'm an design engineer by trade, have some of my own machines (mill, plasma, lathe (in no way shape or form do i claim to be a professional at anything lol)) but have done very little programming other than F-carve, heekscad/cam, and a few other low end/free programming software. I know we are running off topic here, but still I have questions I feel you are knowledgeable enough to answer. What software do you personally suggest for creating G-code? I'm not asking for top of the line, more the most user friendly and relatively economical. Just three axis work with the possibilities to use a 4th axis if I get that far along in this project. We run mastercam and NX at work for programming, yet I have never touched them due to not being my job or my workstation having the licenses
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Craig,
Also, you have my sold on the warp9 ESS. That's what i'll be buying and considering I have a license of mach3 and it already has the THC built in per say, I'm not going to wait right now for the newer version to come out.
Casey
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Hi,
until recently I had access to Mastercam through work. It is exactly the opposite of what you want, very expensive,
top of the line and hell of a learning curve......but damn was it good!
So its back to Fusion 360, its not bad and of course it is free. Say whatever you like about Autodesk, and I am one of their
critics, but they have given a true gift to the hobby/maker/student community.....Thanks to Autodesk.
A lot of stuff I do at my mill is pretty simple, face a bit of aluminum, pocket a rectangular hole then drill a series of
equidistant holes say. For that purpose Mill Wizard ($75 from NFS) is great. Chain together a few simple ops and
the job is done. Produces Mach3 and Mach4 compliant code. No CAD, no CAM, just a Wizard.....too easy. Download a demo
and try it out. You'll have tool paths chained together within half an hour.
That's what i'll be buying and considering I have a license of mach3 and it already has the THC built in per say, I'm not going to wait right now for the newer version to come out.
Hey, if you already have Mach3 then carry on. Later if you find there is some particular functionality that Mach4 has that Mach3
does not, or not easily, then consider it. The ESS will be just as good with Mach4 as it is with Mach3, you'll have it for years.
Craig