Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Tjc747 on March 22, 2019, 04:11:30 PM
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Hello everyone, I just have to say sorry for any stupid questions I have but am not be able to move forward with my project without some answers from experienced knowledgeable folks. I also must add an apology but from reading through many of your post on your forum that many do not like the China made components which I am guilty of purchasing. My project started from buying some persons DIY plans but found out after building the structure of the CNC that none the components still existed and had to shop for like kind updated parts. The plans always called for a MACH3 USB (only) interface board. The MACH3 support page on installation and setup which I have read twice seems to only talk about setup for parallel port interface breakout boards. This is where my understanding is very limited and questions are about connecting the stepper drivers and limit/home switches.
My desktop unit I am using that is 2.5 GHZ with WIN10 home.
Interface board is named BL-UsbMach V2.1 5 Axis.
3ea DM860A Microstep stepper drivers.
3ea power supplies.
3ea Nema 34 Bi-polar motors.
I have loaded the MACH3 software with no hickups and did the re-boot after intall. After spending a hr trying to find the Driver Test .exe Only to finally read that its not avaiable for ethernet or USB connections.
The interface board developers send you config docs but many things do not make logical sense like Pin in / Out. They use same pin# for XYZ. I can only get X motor to operate and this is probably my issue but not sure.
The Limit / Home switches have been wired with 2 switches on each axis of XYZ hooked in series with shielded grounded wires. I again was thinking each set needed to be hooked up on interface board each having there own pin# but after reading seems there is a better way of hooking to interface board.
I have no need or desire to hookup my spindle motor since it came with separate power and speed control. I just trying to connect XYZ / Limit/Home switches and config the MACH3 software.
Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Will add the 2 PDFs that came with interface board, I did not use there MACH3 software though but have downloaded the demo version from ArtSoft website.
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Sounds like you have the same motor kit that i have. I had no idea what i was getting into, but in the back of my mind i knew i could do this. It just fascinates me. Everyone on this forum is great and will help when they can.
I hung in there and i love it. Its only been a year for me so i am a newbie as well.
lumber60
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Thanks Lumber60, you have giving me hope hehe. I just removed all the wiring from the interface board to the stepper drivers and going to start over. The vague documents given with Interface shows that XYZ are 0 for Step Pin# and Dir Pin# . This seems odd but again I know little about MACH# config. Do you know if you had different values other than 0. Anyway thanks again for encouragement. Tim
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Hi,
I also must add an apology but from reading through many of your post on your forum that many do not like the China made components which I am guilty of purchasing.
I'm one of the most vocal of such critics. I'm not against all Chinese stuff, most of it is
pretty good value for money. I suspect that your kit is good EXCEPT for the rubbish USB controller.
If you bought a decent US or European controller to replace it then your kit would really
come alive. If memory serves correctly I think lumber60 may have had the same trouble
and I think he may have replaced the controller.
Craig
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Thanks for the response Joeaverage! Well I have read many helpful responses and yes we were one those who has given lots of help. I just have a 3 AXIS system, what is your recommendation for good interface switch. I am ready to trash this horrible USB interface I currently own. I need to stay with USB or could use ethernet. I looked last night online for a substitute but obviously I need someone like you to send me in right direction, need good documentation for newbie. Thanks so much for your quick response. Tim
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Hello everyone, I just have to say sorry for any stupid questions I have but am not be able to move forward with my project without some answers from experienced knowledgeable folks. I also must add an apology but from reading through many of your post on your forum that many do not like the China made components which I am guilty of purchasing. My project started from buying some persons DIY plans but found out after building the structure of the CNC that none the components still existed and had to shop for like kind updated parts. The plans always called for a MACH3 USB (only) interface board. The MACH3 support page on installation and setup which I have read twice seems to only talk about setup for parallel port interface breakout boards. This is where my understanding is very limited and questions are about connecting the stepper drivers and limit/home switches.
My desktop unit I am using that is 2.5 GHZ with WIN10 home.
Interface board is named BL-UsbMach V2.1 5 Axis.
3ea DM860A Microstep stepper drivers.
3ea power supplies.
3ea Nema 34 Bi-polar motors.
I have loaded the MACH3 software with no hickups and did the re-boot after intall. After spending a hr trying to find the Driver Test .exe Only to finally read that its not avaiable for ethernet or USB connections.
The interface board developers send you config docs but many things do not make logical sense like Pin in / Out. They use same pin# for XYZ. I can only get X motor to operate and this is probably my issue but not sure.
The Limit / Home switches have been wired with 2 switches on each axis of XYZ hooked in series with shielded grounded wires. I again was thinking each set needed to be hooked up on interface board each having there own pin# but after reading seems there is a better way of hooking to interface board.
I have no need or desire to hookup my spindle motor since it came with separate power and speed control. I just trying to connect XYZ / Limit/Home switches and config the MACH3 software.
Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Will add the 2 PDFs that came with interface board, I did not use there MACH3 software though but have downloaded the demo version from ArtSoft website.
Read/download document from
https://www.scribd.com/document/399210224/USB-MACH3-Interface-Board-BL-UsbMACH-V2-1-Instruction
Your controller will need a MACH3 plug-in to work and the pirated MACH3 from China is version 1.96 which will NOT support plug-ins or any OS other but WinXP.
Uninstall Mach3 and delete the whole Mach3 folder, reboot PC and start over with legal MACH3 (DEMO is OK to test first).
Just follow the manual to the letter.
After you machine is running, think of investing is better Ethernet motion controllers like the ESS from Warp9.
My advise - avoid ALL USB motion controllers if you want to do real CNC work.
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Thanks Reuelt for your help and suggestion on ethernet interface. I am presently looking at it online.
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Hi,
I personally use an Ethernet SmoothStepper and it works well. There are six seven US and European manufacturers
that ALL make quality devices and they ALL have great customer support.
https://warp9td.com/ (https://warp9td.com/)
The Ethernet SmoothStepper is the model of choice. It has both Mach3 and Mach4 plugins and a company supported forum.
Warp9 is days away from adding realtime THC support to its Mach4 plugin meaning that all the commonly required realtime
functions are now available in both Mach3 and Mach4 plugins, things like backlash comp, lathe threading and THC. Costs
about $190US. Needs to be partnered with one (or more) parallel BoBs, for which there is a wide choice. C10's are $23 each
whereas the MB2 from CNCRoom with all three ports developed is about $200. The ESS has a total of 51 inputs and outputs
up to 4Mhz pulse output rate.
https://www.poscope.com/products/pokeys-devices/ (https://www.poscope.com/products/pokeys-devices/)
PoKeys do two devices that may interest you. The 57CNCdb25 is a USB connected device that converts the USB data
form Mach into pulse streams in parallel and presents them to the real world in the form of a db25 (aka the parallel port)
plug. It has 12 outputs and 5 inputs. Costs about $120. Good for a simple (one ports worth of IO) machines.
The other device is the 57CNC. This device is optionally Ethernet connected and has a total of 57 inputs and outputs.
Some of the inputs can be analogue, a nice feature. Has both Mach3 and Mach4 plugins. Max output pulse rate is 125kHz,
so not fast but usable and quicker than any parallel port! Cost about $150. Note that the 57CNC is based on the same core
as the 57E and 57U which could be used for CNC and it an attractive proposition because they are under $100 BUT they
are not really fully developed for CNC use and you have to add other circuitry to take advantage of all its features. In short
I would recommend spending the extra and get the 57CNC from the outset.
https://www.cncdrive.com/ (https://www.cncdrive.com/)
CNCDrive do three models of interest to Mach users. The venerable UC100 is still very popular at about $120. It is USB connected
and has one db25 plug output much like the 57CNCdb25 I described above. It has one ports worth of IO, that is 12 outputs
and 5 inputs. If you like the idea of such a device don't buy a Chinese ripoff from Amazon or Ebay, buy direct from CNCDrive
or their nominated distributor. Other models are the UC400 which has two ports, about 34 inputs and outputs or the UC300
which has five ports for 85 inputs and outputs. Both are Ethernet connected and about $150. Note than CNCDrive make
their own software called UCCNC and it is apparently pretty good too. The UC100, UC300 and UC400 all have Mach3 and Mach4
plugins. Max output pulse rate is 125kHz, not blazing fast but useful. CNCDrive has just (fortnight ago) released a new model
AXBB but at this stage is for their own UCCNC software only. It may well at some time in the future has Mach plugins as well
but not yet.
http://www.vitalsystem.com/portal/index.php (http://www.vitalsystem.com/portal/index.php)
The Hicon Integra is the model of choice, costs about $600 without extras. It is a high quality Ethernet connected device which
supports all the common realtime functions. It has both Mach3 and Mach4 plugins. The are extra modules that allow the use of
analogue servos, a Machh4 ready THC feature, an onboard API feature....all extra to the base price. No breakout board required
as all IO is 24V tolerant. Pulse output rates of up to 12MHz, so blazing fast.
https://www.pmdx.com/ (https://www.pmdx.com/)
PMDX has two models of external controller, the PMDX-411, a USB connected db25 plug output device at about $120 and
the PMDX-424, a two port (34 input and outputs) device with onboard power supply and no breakout board required, at $250.
PMDX has a great reputation for quality and, especially, backup. These are Mach4 devices only.
https://en.cs-lab.eu/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwj9LkBRDnARIsAGQ-hUceuDpuI7xnofziZ6ULmGY2Y02GyukLySQ3L1RWU7b-kNQpQ6AxhngaAsQnEALw_wcB (https://en.cs-lab.eu/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwj9LkBRDnARIsAGQ-hUceuDpuI7xnofziZ6ULmGY2Y02GyukLySQ3L1RWU7b-kNQpQ6AxhngaAsQnEALw_wcB)
CsLabs have a couple of models, a step/direction model and an analogue model, both about 600 Euro, so not cheap.
They are good quality and have a loyal support base especially in UK and Europe. They also enjoyed a good reputation
for support. That reputation has tarnished somewhat of late....may be some change within the company. They have both
Mach3 and Mach4 plugins but the Mach4 plugin is buggy and they have done nothing about it for months. Given the price
of the device I hesitate to recommend it despite the high quality and innovative design. Without top notch support I wont
be parting with my money.
http://www.galilmc.com/ (http://www.galilmc.com/)
Galil is the last word in professional quality motion control. Has a Mach3 plugin and just recently a Mach4 plugin. The Mach4
plugin is written and supported by one of the Mach4 developers so it will be just like Galil.....rock solid. Downside is that
a moderate entry level three axis controller is about $2000. You get what you pay for. Just as a matter of interest the top
model, the 40 series, accepts encoder inputs up to 22MHz and step outputs up to 6MHz.....you want Ethercat....we got Ethercat,
and the list goes on and on and on.
Craig
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Hello Craig, all I can say is wow, thanks!! Well reading the forum this morning for me I saw that many CNC users use the Ethernet SmoothStepper and so with you using it think it would be a great fit for me. I found one that will can be delivered in just a few days if order tonight. Their Warp9td website is full of helps which is awesome to me but only thing holding me back is the BOB's and you covered that with C10's. For just using 3 axis XYZ and limit switches how many C10's would I need. I found the C10's on amazon and ebay so was going to order same time as Ethernet SmoothStepper.
Thanks mucho, Tim
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Hi,
any of the devices I listed would work well.
A C10 is a simple bidirectional breakout board. It does not have any opto isolators nor does it have a dedicated
PWM to analogue converter. You might well find you have to make a couple of simple electronic circuits to meet a
specific requirement. Are you OK with that? The advantage, if indeed you accept that proviso, is that they are cheap.
There are more sophisticated breakout boards but cost more and because the manufacturer has built in some of the additional
circuits I mentioned you must now abide that manufacturers design methodology.
One C10 BoB (breakout board) accommodates one 'ports worth' of IO. Your first port defined in the ESS plugin will
have pins 2-9, 1, 14, 16, 17 as outputs with pins 10, 11, 12, 13, 15 as inputs. That is just enough for a simple machine.
You can use pins 2-9 as step/dir for up to four axes, one input for an Estop which leaves four inputs for homes/limits
and a probe. Having to combine homes and limits because of the limited number of spare inputs is a PITA. It has caused
so much grief to so many people over the years.
Given that you have bought an ESS you don't have to do that rubbish! You have all those spare inputs and outputs so
take advantage of them. If you buy a second C10 you can change a jumper on the C10 board that turns pins 2-9
into inputs. Thus you could define the second port of the ESS in the ESS plugin as pins 1, 14, 16, 17 as outputs and
pins 2-9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15 as inputs. Thus with two (of the three) ports of the ESS populated with two C10 BoBs
you have a total of 16 outputs and 18 inputs, swags and swags!
My recommendation is therefore to buy two C10's. You could get away with one but two allows you to take advantage
of what the ESS has to offer.
I use MB02 from Homann Designs in Australia (not to be confused with the MB2 of CNCRoom) and they are almost indentical
to the C10. Australia is near enough to local to me and Peter Homann designs and builds good stuff.
There is another alternative and that is the MB2 (confusing I know!) board by CNCRoom (Malaysia). That has ALL three ESS
ports developed in one high quality board. It has all those extra circuits I mentioned so you lose a little flexibility but still
you will have plenty of inputs and outputs optimized for certain functions. If you want to avoid any making any electronic circuits
its a good choice. Costs about $200.
Craig
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Hi Craig, well again thanks for all your time and info. I am presently looking at buying the Malaysia MB2, Its seems there bob is made to match the ethernet smoothstepper and I am looking at simplicity and functional. It looks thought might take a month to get it. If this all comes together I may be a constant throne in your side asking questions hehe. Ordered the ESS board and now looking if stuck buying from Malaysia just because of time.
Thank a million, Tim
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Good choice for buying the ESS.
In the "3 little pigs and the big bad wolf" fairy tale, Only one of them got it right from the beginning.
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Hi,
Its seems there bob is made to match the ethernet smoothstepper and I am looking at simplicity and functional.
Yes indeed, they have made it specifically for the ESS and is a worthy choice.
My thing is electronics so I would rather have something simple and flexible ( and cheap)like a pair (or trio) of C10's and
make whatever specialist circuits I want. I can understand that you might prefer the ready to go option.
I am surprised they don't have a distributor in the US...that might reduce the wait. In the meantime any cheap parallel port BoB
would probably be enough to get you going.
Craig
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Craig
You are correct. I did purchase the UC100 from CNCDrive, and currently us the DB25 bob.
I also took your advice and purchased Mach4. Works great
lumber60
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I am presently looking at buying the Malaysia MB2
CNC Room just released a newer model, the MB3.
https://www.cncroom.com/interface-cards/mb3
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Hi Gerry, thanks for taking the time to send me info on updated MB3. I have already purchased the MB2 but you are right that the MB3 does have many nicer features. I told Craig about telling my wife who has been very involved in my building my CNC that it would cost just under a $1000 and now just broke $3500. I should have gone ahead and paid the extra 30 but really but felt I had already exceeded my limits. If after I get these components installed, setup and running for awhile I think I will sell the MB2 and replace with MB3.
Thanks again Gerry for your help! Tim
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Good Morning Craig, just wanted to say thanks again for your encouragement and input. You were so right about the folks on this forum being so very helpful. I did order the ESS SmoothStepper and its companion BOB. Hopefully get the components in a week and can finally enjoy the fruits of my wife's and my labor hehe. Hope you have a great weekend!
Tim
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Hi,
maybe that extra $30 would be better spent on some nice flowers and chocolate treats for your missus.
You never know, you may have to soften her up for yet another (budget) blow! ;D
Craig
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I received my new SmoothStepper Ethernet and BOB yesterday. I just wanted to say thanks again to all that helped guide me to the right interface and BOB. Today I will begin to install and setup this baby!
Tim
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I 1st of all must say thanks for all the support I have received from forum members which has gotten me thus far. I finally got my wiring properly configured and now in need of Mach3 configuring for my motors. I used a Stepper Calculator posted and tried the numbers on the inch scale.
I am useing the following equipment and hardware.
Mach3 software (latest version)
Smoothstepper ESS
CNCroom MB3 BOB
3ea DM860A Microstep stepper drivers. (Nema34 Stepper motor driver DM860A 7.8A 256micsteps 24~80VDC LONGS)
3ea power supplies. (350W,48VDC Power Supply 7.3A for Nema23&34 Stepper motor&Driver CNC Router)
3ea Nema 34 Bi-polar motors. (CNC NEMA34 Stepper Motor 1232OZ-IN 8.7NM,5.6A,118mm,4leads) Stepper motor
Technical Specifications
Part No.: 34HS1456
Frame Size: NEMA34
Phase: 2 Phase
Step Angle: 1.8 degree
Current: 5.6A
Rated Voltage: 3.1V
Resistance: 0.55Ohm/phase
Inductance: 5.5mH/phase
Holding torque: 1232oz-in (8.4N.m)
Detent torque: 12.5N.cm
Rotor inertia: 2900g.cm²
Number of wire leads: 4 (Red A+ ,Green A- ,Yellow B+ ,Blue B-)
Weight: 3.8 kg
Length: 116mm
Matched drive:DM860A
I am only using XYZ axis and drives are CNC SFU1605 Ball Screw SET. My power supply is set at 48V.
Any help with Moto tuning and Setup Motor outputs, not sure DIR LowActive or Step LowActive
Using the Mach3 MPG I am able to activate each motor nut they seem to chug and whine and miss a pause in rotation. I have verified the motor wiring to stepper driver is correct. I have my BOB wired using VCC connected to PUS+ and DIR+ then XS- connected to PUS- and -XD onnected to DIR- .
I have tried to list everything I have done, any help will be mucho appreciated.
Thanks Tim
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Hi,
are your steppers direct coupled to the ballscrews?
What microstepping regime have you got your drivers set to?
Craig
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I have motors connected directly to Ball screws. I have settings set sw 1 ON sw2 ON sw3 OFF, sw4 I left off and then I thought I needed to set sw 5 6 7 8 25600 not sure where I read something about that so OFF OFF OFF ON for SW5 thru 8.
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Hi,
I have settings set sw 1 ON sw2 ON sw3 OFF, sw4 I left off and then I thought I needed to set sw 5 6 7 8 25600 not sure where I read something about that so OFF OFF OFF ON for SW5 thru 8.
That does not mean that much to me, these are your stepper drivers, you have them in front of you. You have to use the
driver instructions to determine what that means.
If your microstepping regime is 25600 steps/rev its unrealistic.
You need to set the switches for 8 microsteps per full step or 1600 steps/rev. Note that 4, 8, 16 or even 32 microsteps
per fullstep would be adequate. Adjust the following calculation to suit if you choose other than 8 microsteps.
I assume because you have metric ballscrews that your native units are mm?
Then you steps per unit, which you put in the motor tuning page would be:
1600 (steps/rev)/5 (mm/rev)=320 steps per unit
I would set, as a preliminary estimate, a max velocity of 500 rpm or 500 X 5 =2500 mm/min
I would set, as a preliminary estimate, a max acceleration of 500 mm/sec2
Craig
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Well Craig you have giving me a starting place and just think I thought I had a little grasp on this area and now realizing I need bunches of help. I will go in and check and I am sure I used inches.
Thanks again for coming through for me, Tim
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Hi,
if you are using metric ballscrews then why use inches?
If the calculation is done in inches:
1600 (steps/rev) / (5/25.4)= 8128 steps per unit (in inches)
Craig
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Well I am obviously a bear of small brain, now that you put it that way makes very good sense :) ! I am heading out to do the settings in few minutes and will post a update, mucho thanks
Tim
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Howdy Craig, after re reading many times this bear of small brain understood, I always get mixed up when taking about Stepper motor which is used many times to say stepper drivers. Anyway I made the adjustments and the machine came to life. I am sure I will be doing some fine tuning but its works and I owe you a BIG Thanks!! attached is a picture of my SAW 1st test cut
Thanks sooooo much!
Tim
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Hi,
kool. CNC is one big learning curve.
Craig
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Very nice construction, congratulations on a job well done.
However I do see one problem. There are 3 power supplies with fans in the bottom area. I hope you have a plan for filtering the sawdust out of their cooling air.
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Congratulations for nice construction.
Your ESS, motors and drivers etc are well PREPARED for a future much larger table possibly with wide movable gantry so that heavy 8'x4' or 10'x5' plywood and long hardwood (for huge sign) could remain stationary.
For a large table, consider tensioned "bicycle chain" type design for the x-axis (the longest axis) instead of a ball-screw and BACKLASH will be then mechanically zero and you can even move the gantry easily by just pushing when the motor is off instead of having to slowly turn/crank the ballscrew.
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Hi All, again want to say thanks for all the help you have given me, and Reuelt I love the way you think :) on building a larger saw. MN300 I also agree in looking for away to keep dust away from my power supplies, THX. The learning curve as Craig said has just began and now asking what software would be a good start for me. I am just a hobbyist at this time and would like to make some simple signs and such. I have spent the last day looking and so much of the software is for true milling parts etc and extremely expensive. I just want to do some text and graphics (simple) stuff. Any suggestions again as always will be mucho appreciated.
Thanks Tim
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Hi,
for chaining together operations like face the part, two rectangular pockets and a row of holes, MillWizard ($75 from NFS)
is very easy and often all that is required for simple engineering parts.
Fusion360 is a freeware CAD/CAM program and is pretty damn good.
I am not familiar with sign making and engraving software. It seems all the good stuff you have to pay for.
As an extreme example a fully optioned copy of Mastercam will cost $20,000 plus $2,500 annually for one seat!
Numbers like that make the price of Mach and its hardware look like chicken feed.
Craig
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"I just want to do some text and graphics (simple) stuff. "
Get some ebay "60deg v-bits" (1/2" 3/4" 1")
Download FREEWARE
1. F-engrave
2. DMAP2gcode
and
3. Gcode-ripper
from:- https://www.scorchworks.com
They are excellent.
And you can get many many freeware "stick fonts" for F-Engrave. It also can use most True type Fonts from windows.
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Thanks Craig for speedy response. I guess again I don't understand what I should. I do own Mach3 software now but do I understand right that its only used as interface to my saw and can load Gcode into it. I am under the understanding I need a program to do my designs and then output to be loaded into Mach3. I thought Fusion 360 was free but looked at it and now have 30 day trail and then $500. Example I wanted to make small plaque stating my wife and I made our saw and then wanted to make a design for a bracket to connect a vacuum system. I saw that prices for doing truly extreme parts milling and watched so many YouTube video that are awesome. Those like commercial CNC machines are very expensive. I will download my trial version of Fusion 360.
Thanks Tim
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Hi,
there seems to be a lot of people using Vectric.
The entry level Cut2D (Desktop) at $150 and VCarve (Desktop) at $350 sound like pretty good value.
I'm guessing that there is an upgrade path.
The cost of either ($150 or $350) or even the Pro versions of each ($450 or $700) are still really inline
with the investment you have made in the machine, Mach and Mach specific hardware.
If you went and bought a new truck and made mods and repairs to it......would you then scrimp by not putting gas in
it?
AutoDesk will try to get you to pay for Fusion360 but the vast majority of users do not.
AutoDesk have a simple policy 'take your trousers down and bend over while we extract money'. In the case of Fusion360
they are trying to get new customers familiar and loyal to the Autodesk brand. The opportunity they have presented
to amateurs, hobbyists and students is very good indeed and my previous comment about AutoDesk not withstanding
are to be congratulated.
Craig
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Well my stomach now hurts from laughing, your opinions are highly regarded but your while very practical and helps, you do it with great candor. I will go checkout your leads to apps. I did the Vcarve and they free trial does give you the full power of there app but will not let you export anything you create. I will also download Fusion 360 and see what it will let me do.
Tim
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Hi,
I did the Vcarve and they free trial does give you the full power of there app but will not let you export anything you create.
That is the norm with trial versions of CAD/CAM software. I suspect it changes when you buy it. I think you will find
some restrictions of similar nature in Fusion360 as well.....and they to evaporate or at least substantially reduce if you
pay up.
Making CNC parts is a process and its not unreasonable to say that CAD/CAM software underpins the whole thing, I mean
what good is a Mach CNC machine without Gcode programs for it to consume?
I would recommend your current course of trialing all and any software, get inputs from other users before buying.
Every CAD/CAM package I've come across requires considerable learning to get the most from it. You don't want to make
that investment only to realize that its not capable of your current requirements or future needs. The chances are that if you
buy a program you will gain so much familiarity with it that you will be a loyal customer of that company. This is exactly
what AutoDesk want and they cant be blamed for trying it.
Craig