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Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Tuffluck13 on March 18, 2019, 10:32:00 PM

Title: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 18, 2019, 10:32:00 PM
Hello,
Total newb here.  Guy in our shop wanted to license our PC that was running our CNC and ended up installing Windows 10.  Long story short, I have since re-installed Windows 7 after not being able to get Mach3 to run with Windows 10 and when the guy installed Windows 10 he did not back anything up.

I have now been tasked with getting Mach3 back up and running on Windows 7.  I have installed the software and am able to get the E-Stop to work, but when  I try to jog the motors, the DRO reads, but the motors don't move.  I have gone through forums and watched videos, but can't find anything as to why it won't work.  Everything worked fine til someone got a bright idea and now we have nothing. 

I have also ran the Driver Test in the Mach3 folder and that came back successfully.  No wiring has been changed.  Can someone take a look at my XML file and see if I've missed something rather obvious???

Thanks in advance and let me know if there is any other info I can provide to assist. 
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 18, 2019, 10:57:27 PM
Hi,
just to be 100% sure you are talking Windows 7 32 bit?
You are trying to use Machs parallel port?

Quote
I have also ran the Driver Test in the Mach3 folder and that came back successfully.

Can you expand on this? Ideally a screen shot of the DriverTest screen......it tells a good deal about the health of the
parallel port.

Craig

Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 18, 2019, 11:19:53 PM
Craig,
My apologies, yes, 32-Bit Pro.  I installed the Parallel Port Driver from Mach3 as well.  For some reason I can only attach one file, or it says file is too large.
Thanks for the quick response and let me know if you need more pics.
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 18, 2019, 11:27:30 PM
Hi,
OK, that looks pretty good, the parallel port driver seems to work.

What we need to test now is the BoBs ability to signal Mach. Do you have an Estop button?
If so can you enable/reset Mach and then cause an Estop by using the physical Estop button?

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 18, 2019, 11:42:49 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean BoBs? 

I do have an EStop, and I am able to push it and have the Reset button start flashing in Mach.  Once I pull it back out, I am able to press the Reset button and it stops flashing. 
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 18, 2019, 11:54:58 PM
Hi,

Quote
but what do you mean BoBs?

Sorry, it means 'breakout board', in your case the PMDX-122.

The fact that you can cause an Estop by hitting the button confirms that an input to the PMDX-122 is propagating
through it to Mach. Its a pretty fair bet then that the reverse is true, that is that Mach can communicate to the BoB.

We can test that.

MDI he following:
G0 X1
X0
X1
X0
X1
X0

That sequence would ideally cause the X axis to move back and forth one unit. What I want you to look for
is the LEDs associated with the X axis stepper driver. I would guess pins 2 and 3 are associated to the X axis,
and probably pin3 is the direction pin. With the sequence of moves I would expect the LED to light in one direction
but then go out in the other direction. Does this in fact happen?

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 19, 2019, 12:13:00 AM
I will try this tomorrow and let you know what I find.
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: reuelt on March 19, 2019, 07:27:28 AM
Hello,
Total newb here.  Guy in our shop wanted to license our PC that was running our CNC and ended up installing Windows 10.  Long story short, I have since re-installed Windows 7 after not being able to get Mach3 to run with Windows 10 and when the guy installed Windows 10 he did not back anything up.

I have now been tasked with getting Mach3 back up and running on Windows 7.  I have installed the software and am able to get the E-Stop to work, but when  I try to jog the motors, the DRO reads, but the motors don't move.  I have gone through forums and watched videos, but can't find anything as to why it won't work.  Everything worked fine til someone got a bright idea and now we have nothing. 

I have also ran the Driver Test in the Mach3 folder and that came back successfully.  No wiring has been changed.  Can someone take a look at my XML file and see if I've missed something rather obvious???

Thanks in advance and let me know if there is any other info I can provide to assist. 
My wild guess is that you still have YET to enabled Port 1 PIN 17 in MACH3 as the CHARGE PUMP output.
Please check & confirm.
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 19, 2019, 01:01:19 PM
Craig,
I had one of the CNC operators try the MDI code you provided.  No LEDs lit up on the stepper motor.  The DRO said that the motors were moving, but nothing was moving on the table. 

reuelt,
You were correct, I enabled Port 1, and entered Pin 17 for the Charge Pump output.  No dice. Still have the same results. 

Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: reuelt on March 19, 2019, 01:36:07 PM
You need to save settings and restart Mach3 after change.
Also please try to untick the "active low" of pin 17. Perhaps it require an "active high" for the Charge pump.

Reuel
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 19, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
Hi,
can you confirm with a multimeter the power supply to the BoB?

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 19, 2019, 08:31:54 PM
Craig,
I'm not 100% sure if I'm checking this correctly.  From what I can tell from the PMDX manual power is applied through the USB connector (J12)...when I put my meter across the USB it appears to short the BoB out....meaning all the LEDs go dark when I connect my meter.  I've attached a picture of my BoB

reuelt,
I tried both Active High and Active Low (restarting Mach after each setting change) and it doesn't make a difference. 

Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 19, 2019, 09:47:50 PM
Hi,

Quote
)...when I put my meter across the USB it appears to short the BoB out....meaning all the LEDs go dark when I connect my meter.

That doesn't sound correct to me.

Can you use your meter to measure some other known good voltage source? Please confirm that the leads are plugged in
to the meter to measure voltage (high impedance input) not to measure current (low impedance input).

Is it possible that the USB cable or the USB port into which it is plugged is faulty? Looking at the pic of your BoB
there is a regular DC input jack adjacent to the USB socket. Do you have a supply that could be plugged in there
to try it?

It also looks like from the pic that the LEDs associated with each output are working? Is that correct? It is those
LEDs I would expect to change state when you run the MDI codes I posted earlier.

I notice also that you have wires running from the step/dir pins (pairs 2&3, 4&5, 6&7) but I don't see any enable
wire/wires hooked up. Can you post a pic of your stepper driver? I'm just guessing that they have an enable input
which you are not energizing.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 19, 2019, 10:13:33 PM
Craig,
Thanks for the quick response. Answers to your questions below.

Can you use your meter to measure some other known good voltage source? Please confirm that the leads are plugged in
to the meter to measure voltage (high impedance input) not to measure current (low impedance input).
- I am able to measure 120VAC across an outlet....I don't have anything to test 24VDC, but I'll be using my meter tomorrow on some low voltage stuff.  I'll verify
 - The leads are in the Voltage socket...not the current socket


Is it possible that the USB cable or the USB port into which it is plugged is faulty? Looking at the pic of your BoB
there is a regular DC input jack adjacent to the USB socket. Do you have a supply that could be plugged in there
to try it?
- I suppose anything is possible, but I wouldn't think so
 - I don't have a power supply that would plug into the round DC power port, but I have a power supply I could wire in to some terminals...I'll have to read through the manual...I thought I saw a couple terminals you could use in lieu of. 


It also looks like from the pic that the LEDs associated with each output are working? Is that correct? It is those
LEDs I would expect to change state when you run the MDI codes I posted earlier.
- It would appear so, but when we ran the MDI codes no lights flickered and no motors spun...only the DRO values changed. 

I notice also that you have wires running from the step/dir pins (pairs 2&3, 4&5, 6&7) but I don't see any enable
wire/wires hooked up. Can you post a pic of your stepper driver? I'm just guessing that they have an enable input
which you are not energizing.
- Picture attached for reference. 
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 19, 2019, 10:55:38 PM
Hi,

Ok, not familiar with that stepper drive but I see from the pic of your BoB you have four wires going to each drive,
two of which are Com and the other two presumably Step and Direction. I would have thought that you would need
at least two more wires, one for yet another Com and the remaining wire an Enable.

Do you have any documentation for the driver?

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 19, 2019, 11:02:59 PM
Hi,
I notice also on the pic of the BoB that the three terminal TO220 IC just North of the DC input socket is a 7805?
Can you confirm, the reflected light in the pic makes it difficult to read the part number.

If that is the case then any voltage supply 12V,15V or so would probably work as it will pass through the 7805 voltage
regulator to end up 5V on the board. Can you probe with your meter between one of the terminals labeled 5V and 0V?
I would expect the USB input would be 15V but critically any 5V terminal should be 5V.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: reuelt on March 19, 2019, 11:10:03 PM

reuelt,
I tried both Active High and Active Low (restarting Mach after each setting change) and it doesn't make a difference. 


From pic of your PMDX-122, it is the earlier version that does not use a CHARGE PUMP.
The jumper in the middle is already set to ALWAYS ENABLE so you do not need to enable signal from MACH3. Sorry, I only have manual for later version.
Try to supply 5V power though the DC socket and not the USB. Just for testing you can use 4 NI-MH batteries in series that will give 4.8 volts to 5.2 volts.
If USB power is used, the board cannot give INPUT signals to MACH3 because USB power being from the PC cannot (not allowed) to supply power to the OPTO ISOLATOR buffer Chips used for the input signals.
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 19, 2019, 11:16:57 PM
Craig,
Yes, it reads 7805AC.  I just found the power supply that I have and it's a 24VDC...I'm assuming that would not work for this application? 

I'll see if I can download the manual from Yako's website if we don't have the manuals in the shop (We've had all the other manuals thus far). 

The crappy part about this whole debacle is that the machine worked perfectly, before someone decided to try and license something that didn't need to be licensed. Lol.  Theoretically, I wouldn't think any software installs would hose anything up, but stranger things have happened.

Also, I did contact the previous owner of the machine and he said he MIGHT have a backup for the XML file he had on that machine.  If he does indeed have it, I'll give that a try as well and advise. 
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 19, 2019, 11:23:07 PM

No problem reuelt,
Any input is appreciated.  As far as the USB power...it was working that way when we got it so it was just left that way.  Can you elaborate as to what inputs you would be referring too?  Would the E-Stop be considered an input in said case?
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 19, 2019, 11:24:28 PM
Hi,
just found this pic on the net for your driver. The inputs named MF+ and MF- are the equivalent of an
enable as shown in the pic attached.

Those drivers require an enable signal.

reuelt commented:

Quote
Try to supply 5V power though the DC socket and not the USB. Just for testing you can use 4 NI-MH batteries in series that will give 4.8 volts to 5.2 volts.

I'm not sure that is correct. If my guess about the 7805 IC is correct then you would need a minimum of 8V for the
regulator to work. The difference is called the dropout voltage.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 19, 2019, 11:27:03 PM
Craig,
When you say they require an enable signal, is that the setting in the Pins/Ports where you enable the axis?  If yes, I did enable them.
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 19, 2019, 11:30:49 PM
Hi,
just found this in the PMDX-122 manual.

If you use the jack or pins nominated you can use a 9VAC or 7-12VDC supply.

If you have batteries as reuelt has suggested you can use those too, just not through the jack.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 19, 2019, 11:33:45 PM
Thanks Craig,
I'll see what I can get rounded up tomorrow to test this and I'll post my findings. 
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 19, 2019, 11:39:30 PM
Hi,

Quote
I just found the power supply that I have and it's a 24VDC...


No, the manufacturer says a maximum of 12V. I commonly use 7805's, there like an asshole.....everyones got one,
and they are rated to about 30V input, so I would have thought 24V would have been fine. I would be cautious though,
you don't want to blow the IC up, it could be repaired easily enough but you don't want to tell the boss that you ignored
the manufacturers recommendation and therefore damaged it.

As far as the enable signal goes, I'm not talking about either Mach or the Bob.....but the stepper driver. The input terminals
MF+ and MF- require a constant 5V signal otherwise the drivers do nothing.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 19, 2019, 11:44:21 PM
Ah, I understand where your going with this now.  :) Also, I just dug through my box of cables that I've been saving since the dawn of time and found a round pin 9VDC power adapter! Lol. Now I can finally tell the wife I used one out of the box. I will post my trials tomorrow. Thanks again for the help thus far!
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: reuelt on March 20, 2019, 12:23:28 AM

No problem reuelt,
Any input is appreciated.  As far as the USB power...it was working that way when we got it so it was just left that way.  Can you elaborate as to what inputs you would be referring too?  Would the E-Stop be considered an input in said case?

Input from Limit/home switches etc. can use HIGH voltage and so through opto-isolation chips (sort of relay) for safety reason. The PC USB is grounded with with PC case so USB is NOT isolated from PC.
Usually USB power cannot also power the opto-isolation chips (sort of relays). But OUTPUT signal pins from PC will work using USB power. E-stop usually use a large AC relay to switch off a/c so it may still work with USB powering the board.
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 20, 2019, 02:41:15 AM
Hi,
reuelt commented:

Quote
Input from Limit/home switches etc. can use HIGH voltage and so through opto-isolation chips (sort of relay) for safety reason. The PC USB is grounded with with PC case so USB is NOT isolated from PC.

This is potentially misleading. I have attached the representative digital inputs (DB25 pins 10,11,12,13,15) and none of them are
optically isolated. If you put more than 5V on any of them you will fry the buffer IC. DO NOT USE 24V INPUTS unless you
make and provide some voltage translation. Exceed 5V input to 74LS TTL IC's frys them!

I have also attached pics of the digital outputs (DB25 pins 14,16,17) and the motor outputs (DB25 pins 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9)
and they are not opto-isolated either.

This has implications.
First one and one only 5V supply is needed. It can be derived is different ways but still only one supply is required.
Under no circumstances apply more than 5V to any input.
Do not demand that any output exceed sink or source current appropriate to 74LS TTL. To be safe no more than 10mA
sinking or sourcing.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: reuelt on March 20, 2019, 04:26:56 AM
Hi,
reuelt commented:

Quote
Input from Limit/home switches etc. can use HIGH voltage and so through opto-isolation chips (sort of relay) for safety reason. The PC USB is grounded with with PC case so USB is NOT isolated from PC.

This is potentially misleading. I have attached the representative digital inputs (DB25 pins 10,11,12,13,15) and none of them are
optically isolated.
Craig
Craig,
if your BOB inputs are not optically isolated, it must be an old model (design).
Most newer models are optically isolated (only for input pins).
See attached PIC.
For this typical BOB board for MACH3, the optical isolation chips (relays) must be powered by 12V to 24V otherwise the input pins will not work.

Gecko G540 spec also says
"Opto-isolation on all LPT signal pins"

Reuel


Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 20, 2019, 05:24:15 AM
Hi,

Quote
if your BOB inputs are not optically isolated, it must be an old model (design).

Rubbish, while it is true that a lot of BoBs are opto isolated it is also true that a lot aren't. The pics I posted are from
the PMDX-122 manual and none of the inputs or outputs are opto isolated. I should point out the PMDX has a superb
reputation for quality products.

Quote
For this typical BOB board for MACH3

You posted a pic for a 'typical' parallel port BoB.......but it bears no resemblance to the pic posted by OP of his BoB.
Indeed look at his pic again and see if you can identify any optos, bet you can't because there aren't any.

I use MB02 BoBs from Homann Designs in Melbourne. Peter Homann is a legend in Mach circles and his MB02's don't
have optos either. I've been using them for five years.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 20, 2019, 05:41:52 AM
Hi,
while it might be desirable to have BoB inputs opto isolated, and of course many are,what happens with bi-directional
boards like OP's PMDX-122?.

Under normal configuration pins 2-9 are outputs, commonly step/dir for the motors. It would be unusual for outputs
to be opto isolated, especially when so many stepper drivers have opto isolated inputs. If the board is used on the second
parallel port to get more inputs then pins 2-9 will be inputs. This board accommodates this. But now you have a problem,
if you have an opto output the phototransistor is hooked to the output terminals whereas if it has an opto isolated input
the photdiode must be hooked to the terminals.

To my knowledge there is no such thing as a bi-directional opto isolator. To construct one out of opto ICs adds unnecessary
complexity, especially given the requirement for yet more isolated power supplies.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: reuelt on March 20, 2019, 07:24:31 AM
I think PMDX sells a opto-board calls PMDX-105 to "PATCH UP" for the PMDX-122 lack of opto-isolation.

Years ago, I saw on ebay a Canadian company selling BOB with extra wires that jumps over the opto-isolation - claiming that the BOB were otherwise faulty.
(They just MISTAKENLY did not connect a 12V supply for the opto-isolation chips).

Some even make videos on youtube WRONGLY "teaching" people how to solder jumper wires.
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 20, 2019, 01:08:14 PM
Hi,

Quote
I think PMDX sells a opto-board calls PMDX-105 to "PATCH UP" for the PMDX-122 lack of opto-isolation.

Why bother, this BoB has worked for years in this configuration.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: reuelt on March 20, 2019, 05:28:28 PM
Hi,

Quote
I think PMDX sells a opto-board calls PMDX-105 to "PATCH UP" for the PMDX-122 lack of opto-isolation.

Why bother, this BoB has worked for years in this configuration.

Craig

New version PMDX-122 (REV D) now has a Charge Pump - it is for added SAFETY to prevent machinery motors from moving UNTIL operator using MACH3/4 is FULLY in control.
PMDX-105 optional card is to provide Opto-isolation so that limit/home switches can optionally operate on higher voltages (e.g. 12V or 24V) instead of just TTL level of 5V.
Advantage of higher voltage limit/home switch is that HF noise from VFD & steppers for example will be less likely to falsely trigger the limit switches. HF noise or spikes will have to swing higher voltages to falsely trigger limit switches running at 12V or 24V  instead of 5V.
Another advantage of Opto-isolation is to prevent PC motherboard or parallel ports BLOWING UP. Some companies e.g. Abililty Systems (maker of famous Indexer LPT) used to tell customers to plug in a PCI LPT card or 2 and not use the LPT port on motherboard so that if there is an input surge, you ONLY have to replace the PCI card and not the whole computer.
Opto-isolation prevents blowing up your whole computer or just your PCI/PCIe cards.

People can make their own decision based on more knowledge.

Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: joeaverage on March 21, 2019, 01:34:17 AM
Hi,
we should do some polling.

Quote
now has a Charge Pump - it is for added SAFETY to prevent machinery motors from moving UNTIL operator using MACH3/4 is FULLY in control.

I am well aware of what a charge pump is and what it does and guess that most understand it also. I have never used a charge
pump with either Mach3 and parallel port or Mach4 and ESS, without problems. This comes in large part as a deliberate
design choices on my part that all potentially dangerous (when uncontrolled) motors and pumps are naturally in the OFF
state should the controller be out of service.

My guess is that 3/4 of all Mach users do not use a charge pump. Once upon a time yes is was the norm....not so today.
Would be worth doing some polling.

Quote
PMDX-105 optional card is to provide Opto-isolation so that limit/home switches can optionally operate on higher voltages (e.g. 12V or 24V) instead of just TTL level of 5V.

I certainly agree that optos allow an increase in flexibility, being able to use 24V devices is worthy of consideration.

Quote
Advantage of higher voltage limit/home switch is that HF noise from VFD & steppers for example will be less likely to falsely trigger the limit switches. HF noise or spikes will have to swing higher voltages to falsely trigger limit switches running at 12V or 24V  instead of 5V.

This is a widely held opinion but it is too simplistic to be accurate. The real determinant of noise immunity is not voltage
but impedance.

A 24V device may have a very high input impedance and therefore any inductive spike causes a substantial voltage swing
and potential interference with the signal of interest. The same circuit but at lower impedance with the same inductive spike
will have a proportionately lower voltage swing, ie less interference.

Thermal noise is described by Boltzmans equation:
P=4.k.B.T.R
P=noise power
k=Boltzmans constant
B=bandwidth
T=temperature (0K)
R=resistance (or impedance if reactive)

So for a given temperature and bandwidth, the lower the resistance, the smaller the noise power.

Have you wondered why so many electronic communication systems run at such low voltages? Take Ethernet for
instance, a voltage swing of less than 1V between a '1' and a '0'. That you might have thought that would render Ethernet
susceptible to noise yet in fact Ethernet is very noise resistant. The reason is the low impedance that Ethernet operates
at.

It is possible therefore to have a 5V TTL signal be as noise immune as a 24V signal IF the impedance is chose wisely.
For instance I do not like to load a 74LS TTL output more than about 10 mA, despite the maximum rating being 24mA.
By the same token I always like to load a TTL circuit such that an ON state current of at least 10mA, ie low to moderate
impedance for the sake of noise immunity.

Quote
Another advantage of Opto-isolation is to prevent PC motherboard or parallel ports BLOWING UP

Ok, yes you can blow up a PC by backfeeding the parallel port.......but when was the last time you heard of anyone
actually doing it? There again I think we should do some polling to find out. I know lots of people run scared but
I don't know anyone who has actually blown up a PC.

Hey, I usually have a good go at getting electronic stuff to go......but I have an AWSOME reputation for blowing stuff
up.....and I haven't managed to do so yet and I've got non isolated inputs and have done for five years.

Craig
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: Tuffluck13 on March 21, 2019, 08:59:38 AM
SO...update on progress....Boss won't let me change any wiring on the board yet...He is of the opinion that it worked before, so it should work now ???

I explained to him that we're not necessarily "changing" anything....only unplugging a USB and plugging a round pin in to test and he still isn't budging.  Apparently he got a hold of the previous owner and is going to get his XML file to try before he'll let me swap the power supply.  Here's the kicker....apparently he was told you can't email the XML file. LOL.  So he's going to make a special trip to get the XML via USB on Saturday.  Whatever...I'm just a penny. Lol. 

I'll update once we have the XML....I'm kind of hoping it still doesn't work out of spite.  ;D

Thanks again for the help thus far!
Title: Re: Mach3 / PMDX-122 Issue
Post by: reuelt on March 21, 2019, 06:01:20 PM
Ethernet is very noise resistant because the signal is a difference between the two twisted pair cables. Since noise will affect both twisted pair equally, the difference will remain the same. There is a differential circuit at each end.

USB, limits switches do not use "differential circuits". Noise will change the signal cable but not the ground cable.