Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach4 General Discussion => Topic started by: Klaus on May 25, 2018, 06:38:48 AM
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Hi
If I buy a machine with a Mach 4 motion board, can I also run Mach 3 with that board?
Thanks
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Hi Klaus,
what motion controller are you contemplating?.
Most of the Mach4 motion control boards have a Mach3 plugin as well. The only Mach4 board that I know of that does not is the PMDX-422, its Mach4 only.
The rest, the ESS, the UC100 and UC300, the PoKeys 57 series and the Hicon all have Mach3 plugins.
CSLabs CSMIO boards have a Mach4 plugin but it seems pretty ragged and they seem also to have gone off the boil and not doing anything about it. I don't think
I could recommend CSMIO boards as Mach4 ready yet.
I suspect that once you get your teeth into Mach4 you won't want to go back to Mach3 anyway.
Craig
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Hi Craig and thanks for your answer.
I haven't got the machine yet and I am not 100% sure which controller I get but will find out.
The reason for my question, is that I am getting a 4 Axis Router with a Rotary, and if I have understood it correctly, then there are or can be some problems with Mach4 and Rotary's, is that correct?
Another thing I have seen which can have a problem is a Wireless remote and Mach4.
Sorry, I am totally new to all this so I don't know the correct words and names yet :)
Klaus
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What machine? If it's chinese, you may have issues with both Mach4 and Mach3.
The manufacturer would be the person to ask.
Ask them what motion controller they are using, and if there is a Mach3 plugin for it.
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It is a Chinese Machine and I have just emailed them asking what controller they put in.
It actually took me a while to get them or convince them that I wanted a Mach4 Controller:)
About the Mach3 Plugin, how is that working, is it a Hardware plugin or...?
You are saying that there could be issues with both Mach 3 and 4, do you know which controller I should avoid?
Thanks
Klaus
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Both Mach3 and Mach4 use a software plugin to allow Mach3 and Mach4 to communicate with the motion controller.
My opinion is that all Chinese motion controllers should be avoided. I've only seen one that worked with Mach4, and users were reporting problems with it.
Most chinese controllers have some issues with Mach3 as well, even though thousands of people are using them.
I've helped a few people that bought large ATC chinese machines, and replaced the controller as soon as they got the machines, as they never worked properly.
For Mach3, I'd only recommend the Ethernet SmoothStepper, or any of CNC drives UC********* motion controllers. These also work with Mach4, but may not support all of Mach4's features.
PMDX makes well supported Mach4 boards, but most don't support Mach3.
Vital Systems makes excellent, high end boards for Mach3 and Mach4, but they are expensive.
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Hi Klaus,
to my knowledge there is only one Chinese company that produces a Mach4 capable controller and they don't work at all well. AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE!.
If you read any of my other posts you'll find I am pretty scathing of Chinese made gear so you may and probably should consider what I say with some
suspicion.
All external motion controllers require a plugin, its software that allows Mach to talk to the control board. Most control boards will work with both
Mach3 OR Mach4 if you have the right plugin.
I use an Ethernet SmoothStepper by Warp9. They make two models, the Ethernet connected ESS, and the USB connected USS. The USS works with Mach3 only,
so you want the ESS, it will works well with either Mach3 OR Mach4.
https://warp9td.com/ (https://warp9td.com/)
PoKeys make several boards that are capable of Mach3 OR Mach4. The 57CNCdb25 is a single 'port' device whereas the 57CNC has over 50 IO pins. They
have a good reputation for quality and support and the 57CNC is very flexible.
https://www.poscope.com/ (https://www.poscope.com/)
CNCDrive make the UC100, a single 'port' device and the UC300 board with five 'ports'. They have Mach3 and Mach4 plugins. They are good quality and have
good backup. The Mach4 plugin is fairly new and not as developed as some of the others in this list.
https://www.cncdrive.com/ (https://www.cncdrive.com/)
Vital Systems make the Hicon board, very good quality with both Mach3 OR mach4 plugins. It is the most expensive one in this list but is also the most developed
and polished unit. Good backup.
http://www.vitalsystem.com/portal/index.php (http://www.vitalsystem.com/portal/index.php)
PMDX have been in the business of making Mach boards for a long time and the PMDX-411 which has one 'ports' worth of IO or the PMDX-422 which has two 'ports'
worth of IO are popular but have a Mach4 only plugin. Very good quality and support.
https://www.pmdx.com/ (https://www.pmdx.com/)
XHC is a Chinese company that make boards for Mach3 and other models for Mach4. I think they're rubbish, If you get one your on your own....a lot of Chinese
manufacturers don't bother to help you. AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE!
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,36023.0.html (http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,36023.0.html)
CSLabs is a Polish company that make very good boards, their Mach3 plugin is good. Their Mach4 plugin is not and for some reason they don't seem to be very interested in
fixing it, they used to be very good. They are very expensive and given the cost they should support their boards well but are not . Hard to recommend.
https://en.cs-lab.eu/ (https://en.cs-lab.eu/)
Craig
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Hi,
The reason for my question, is that I am getting a 4 Axis Router with a Rotary, and if I have understood it correctly, then there are or can be some problems with Mach4 and Rotary's, is that correct?
No, Mach4 handle 4 axes no problems but it can't really draw a toolpath very well. The motion is fine.
Another thing I have seen which can have a problem is a Wireless remote and Mach4.
I suspect you are talking about the XHC wireless pendant. A forum member has made a Mach4 plugin for one model of XHC pendant and may work with the wireless model as well
but it is not made by XHC itself. Hard to recommend. I don't like wireless pendants anyway......trust your machine to a wireless connection......I value my fingers, hands and other parts
of my body.
Craig
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Hi,
one last thing is that there are a lot of Chinese ripoffs on sale in places like Amazon and EBay.
Buy direct from the manufacturer or their nominated distributor.
I saw one recently that claimed there was a Canadian made Ethernet SmoothStepper inside.......unless Canada has become a province of China then its an absolute
lie.
Craig
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First of all, wow this is a great Forum, nearly instant answers from very knowledgeable people, much appreciated, so thanks for that.
2 problems for me here:
I am not knowledgeable into CNC at all, so just to understand the answers can be difficult, but still much appreciated and I will learn :)
Second, If I want a CNC Router apart from a little homemade machine then my economy forces me to go the Chinese way :(
I should mention that I 2 years ago bought a Laser cutter/engraver directly from the manufacturer (Redsail) and I have absolutely no problems.
I am aware that if I want to buy from China it should be directly from the manufacturer.
My plan was of course to buy a fully functional machine, which I still hope I can.
I am still quite satisfied with the quotes I got from China and I can see that some of the Control boards mentioned here are nearly a quarter of the machines price!
I will maybe end up buying another Controller if I can't get it to work.
So if I get a Mach4 compatible board, I will also be able to run Mach3 with a Mach3 Plugin?
Joeaverage, I am pretty sure that you are right that it is XHC board, I have emailed them but will not get an answer before Monday.
By the way I can see you are in New Zealand, where are you located? If you don't mind me asking :)
Thanks guys
Klaus
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Hi,
So if I get a Mach4 compatible board, I will also be able to run Mach3 with a Mach3 Plugin?
As I explained earlier if a board has a Mach3 AND a Mach4 plugin then you can use either. Some manufacturers do, some don't.
You wont get a Chinese board for Mach4, if they tell you they have one they are lying.
I would get the machine bare...that is to say without any electronics at all. Buy US, European or Japanese electronics.
I live in Akaroa, about 80k from Christchurch in the South Island. The pic attached to my post is an aerial shot of Banks Peninsula
and Akaroa is a village there.
Craig
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Hi Klaus,
totally off the subject...as you can see I live in a marine paradise and it wont come as a surprise that I sail on keelboats as part of a racing fleet.
One day we had some visitors on board an Isreali couple both University lecturers. She was a historian and a fascinating woman to talk to. Anyway we were well down the harbor
looking due south over the ocean an I said 'and on a clear day you can see Antarctica...' and she suddenly stood and looked intently...it was a beautiful day...maybe she could se it!
It took her about 15 seconds to work out that I was joking.....and she was big hearted enough to laugh.
They had a great time and spent the rest of the day with us and most of the evening eating and drinking...
Craig
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Hi Craig
Ha ha funny story :)
Yes, it is beautiful down on the South Island, but you guys are not so lucky with Earthquakes and all kind of stuff :(
Back to the subject.
The more I'm reading and watching on Youtube the more confused I get :(
Can you or anybody else please explain the difference between a motion controller and a breakout board.
I can see some people have both?
So if I was going with the same board as yours, do I both need a motion controller and a breakout board?
That board is actually not so expensive so it could be possible maybe a little later, but wow just install it and set it up inside Mach4 seems very confusing to me.
Klaus
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A motion controller "talks" to Mach3 via a software plugin. Mach3 sends low level commands to the motion controller, and the motion controller generates the step and direction pulses for the stepper drives.
A breakout board basically just provides screw terminals for connecting your drives, buttons and switches.
Some motion controllers already have terminals, and don't need a breakout board. But many others only provide DB25 or IDC26 connectors to plug a breakout board into.
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OK thanks Gerry.
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Hi Klaus,
I use breakout boards firstly because of the convenience of hooking wires up but more importantly
because it buffers the IO pins of the ESS to the oustide world.
I've popped one input one one BoB, it was an Estop, I don't know exactly what or how I did it
but I'm glad its only a BoB....not the ESS!!!
Craig
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Thanks Craig
Any chance you have a photo with all the things connected?
Klaus
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Also, breakout boards can add features to the motion controller, like analog speed control for VFD's, or allow the use of 24V inputs, to improve noise immunity.
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Hi,
I use MB026's from Peter Homan, Homan Designs, Austrailia. Near enough to local for me.
They've been great. They don't have either a digital to analogue output nor relays or 24V
outputs. I'm into electronics so any of those I prefer to design and build my own.
What they do have which I'd have to recommend, in fact would say they are mandatory is LEDs
on all inputs and outputs.
I might be into electronics but personal experience tells me the risk of me blowing something up
when trying to probe a board or connector with a multimeter is high. Don't do it! One slip and it can,
at worse case, be all over for the board your working on. LEDs on the outputs obviates the need
for it and you can see all of them at a glance, just the 'dogs dangly bits'.
I'll post a pic but may not be able to do so tonight.
Craig