Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: bennet on February 19, 2018, 01:58:43 PM

Title: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: bennet on February 19, 2018, 01:58:43 PM
hi, I need know if possible pilot the motor brushless with  5 axis stepper motor card :
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: joeaverage on February 19, 2018, 02:36:54 PM
Hi,
you'll not be able to use that motor to achieve position control, you could use it as a spindle motor.
A simple on/off or if you have a speed control for the motor you might be able to have Mach assume
that as well.

Craig
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: TPS on February 19, 2018, 02:42:50 PM
sorry t have to say this,

it's like a question: can i drive a car with bananas?

sorry again
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: bennet on February 19, 2018, 03:16:27 PM
can you explain me how to make ? I have also the servo tester for variable speed motor.

the follow picture this is the the wiring scheme for right use of motor and the output /input wires of the control speed driver.

the red wire send 5V for power the servo tester, and the yellow wire is a signal, green wire is the ground.
 
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: joeaverage on February 19, 2018, 04:12:19 PM
Hi,
that 'servo tester' refers to a radio control servo which a specialised PWM modulation, probably more technically
described as pulse position modulation.

Mach3 is not capable of producing such a pulse stream, with a suitable electronic circuit no doubt it could but
I'm dubiuos thats the right way to go.

Have a look at some of the brushed DC spindle motors on Ebay.

Craig
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: TOTALLYRC on February 19, 2018, 08:47:13 PM
IIRC someone makes a device to do what you want. GOOGLE is your friend.

Mike
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: Roaster on February 20, 2018, 11:12:23 AM
What do you want to use the brushless motor for?
You need a pwm output to control the ESC, and you might not have that on your stepper control card.
If you have an Arduino board you can experiment generating a pwm signal and run the brushless motor. The pwm signal goes to the white wire and grd goes to the black. The battery (or dc power supply) for the ESC goes between black and red. That would be +5v to the red from an arduino. This is a good idea to help you learn how this stuff works.
Observe voltage limit of the brushless motor, sometimes listed as 3S, 4S etc. This refers to the size (number of stacked cells) of LiPo batteries. The current draw of an ESC is quite large compared to common power supplies capability, so using a brushless motor in place of a stepper is a bad idea. Typical ESC might be 40A, and go up to 160A and higher. I have a water cooled brushless motor that uses 4S batteries and a 200A ESC for an RC boat. A stepper motor might draw 3A.
A brushless motor and a stepper motor are very different with different intended use. A brushless motor is a 3 phase motor, like a blower motor, so using it as the spindle motor of a cnc machine is it's only choice, and a bad one. They work very well spinning a propeller on a quad-copter due to large power developed and variable speed, and the ability to use a battery.
Stepper motors are not intended for fast, continuous rotation like a spindle motor or a blower motor. They move to an exact position based on the number of steps ordered, usually 200 steps per revolution (or a multiple of that). This is why they are used to move the axes of a cnc machine ... precise positioning at a slow rate. A 24vdc 15A psu are enough for three of them, and way cheaper than batteries.
Learn how 3 phase motors work (the 3 leads circled in black above) and how radio controlled models are controlled (small plug circled in blue above).
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: bennet on February 20, 2018, 12:57:24 PM
I want use as spindle motor in mini mill, not same stepper motor. I want pilot the brushless with the card ST-V2 5 axis and mach3. But I not know how to make . I can wire the ESC control speed to output control spindle joint inverter on the breakboard ?

I have the BRUSHLESS :
Specs.
Turns: 10T
Voltage: 3~4S Lipoly
RPM/V: 1250kv
Internal resistance: 0.022Ohm
Max Loading: 54A
Max Power: 755W .

CONTROL SPEED SBEC Specs:
Max Cont. Current: 70A
Max Burst Current: 85A
Max BEC Current: 3A
BEC Voltage: 5.5v
LiPo: 2~6S
NiMH: 5~16cells
Weight: 84grams
Max RPM (2-pole): 200,000rpm
Size: 69 x 33 x 23mm
Motor Plug: Female 4mm bullet Connection
Battery Plug: Nil
Features.
Extremely low internal resistance
Very low operation temperature
Over temperature protection
APEC MoSfets (Taiwain)
Programming Options.
Battery Type: 2S~6S
Forward/Reverse
Soft Start
LV Cut off Type (Ignore, Reduce Power, Stop Motor)
LV Cut off setting (2.5~3.5v in 0.1v increments)
Timing (Auto, Very Low, Low, Normal, High, Very Hgh)
Switching (8,16kHz)
Factory Restore
Active RPM Control: On/Off (Governor Mode)
Default factory settings.
Brake: off
Battery: LiPo Auto Detect
Low Voltage: 3.2v (power down motor)
Timing: Auto
Frequency: 8KHz

SERVO TESTER  :
Servo & CCPM Servo Consistency Master/Checker
Size: 49x43x29mm
Input: 4.8 ~ 6V
Output up to 3 servos at once!

And the breakboard is this :
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: joeaverage on February 20, 2018, 01:13:19 PM
Hi,
the ESC uses a PWM popular with RC. It has a pulse width of between 1 and 2 millisecond refreshed every 20 milliseconds or so.

Mach3/BoB does not produce that sort of signal naturally. You will have to have a circuit to convert standard PWM (duty cycle) to RC style. As Mike said:
Google is your friend.

To use this motor as a spindle is likely to cause it to overheat.

Craig
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: Roaster on February 20, 2018, 02:49:05 PM
To use it as the spindle you need to feed the ESC the correct voltage with enough amps, making the power supply a major expense, unless you use lipo batteries as it was designed for. Up to you, but it would be easier to get a 120v mini router and adapt it to your machine. This gives you a collet to hold tools too. How are you going to put a collet on the brushless motor?
If you really want to do the brushless, you need to set up an Arduino ($12us) and program it to deliver a pwm to the ESC with a potentiometer on an analog input. Or just use the servo tester. If you really want to control the motor from the motion controller, you could take the 0-10v output spindle speed control signal (if it has that), put it through a voltage devider ckt and send 0-5v to an analog input of the Arduino, then generate the pwm based on that. Easy to do the control, but why would you want to?
Go nuts man.
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: bennet on February 20, 2018, 03:23:54 PM
If you really want to control the motor from the motion controller, you could take the 0-10v output spindle speed control signal (if it has that), put it through a voltage devider ckt and send 0-5v to an analog input of the Arduino, then generate the pwm based on that. Easy to do the control, but why would you want to?
Go nuts man.

thanks Roaster for your reply detailed,  I have begun a project for conversion mini mill,and had already replace the spindle and motor original with a brushless motor, spindle ER11  and pulley with belt. Then I have a cnc system with four motor stepper Nema23, breakboard card ST-V2 and I need of drive the brushless motor.
Now you can explain in detailed info, also scheme draw it's a good,  how to wire from my terminals 0-10V pvm on breakboard with the voltage devider to motor brushless ?
I give to power the ESC controller a power supply PSU 12V. 30A, it's work fine 
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: Roaster on February 20, 2018, 04:15:39 PM
OK. In previous post I said connect red from esc to +5v on arduino. Don't do that.
The red wire from the small plug is to feed voltage from the esc battery to a radio control receiver, and the adruino doesn't need that.
All you want to do is generate a pwm signal like the servo tester does, and reference it to the 0-10v from the controller card.
You have an arduino uno or nano? plenty of videos on you tube how to program what you want. The white wire goes to a pwm pin on the arduino and the black goes to grd. clip the red half way there and insulate for later splice and re-use.
A voltage divider is a series of resistors, say two 250 ohm resistors in line. connect the ends to 0-10v out and motion controller ground or 0 volts.
Splice to the wire between the two resistors (250 ohm on either side of the center point)  and put that to an analog input of the arduino. connect the arduino grd to motion controller grd.
Program the arduino to get analog input and control pwm output on whichever pin you chose. Search you tube for arduino pwm control.
Should be a piece of cake.
You could maybe use a servo shield to use a canned example of pwm control.
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: Roaster on February 20, 2018, 05:21:25 PM
Maybe use 1K resistors instead of 250 ohm. I don't know what the expected load is there, probably high impedence.
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: bennet on February 22, 2018, 01:10:40 AM
can you send me a little schematic draw of your idea, then I will try this .  I'm sorry I have a study of base of the English language :-[
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: joeaverage on February 22, 2018, 01:25:42 AM
Hi,
do you have an Arduino? This idea wont work without it.

Craig
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: bennet on February 22, 2018, 02:04:35 AM
no, and never used it. I need buy it ?
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: Tweakie.CNC on February 22, 2018, 02:15:53 AM
Hi Bennet,

There are some links in this thread that may be of interest to you; http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,27447.0.html

Mach3 PWM converted to the RC standard using a Microchip processor; http://www.graytel.talktalk.net/bldcPWM.wmv

Tweakie.
Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: bennet on February 22, 2018, 03:39:55 AM
hello Tweakie , your help is gold...   I have understand how to pilot the Rc motor, and I wil try now.. But a little bit dubt, where i need  wire the two cables "signal from Mach3" on  interface board  to my breakborad terminals output: 

Title: Re: I need use the motor brushless with 5 axis stepper card
Post by: Tweakie.CNC on February 22, 2018, 04:35:31 AM
Hi Bennet,

You may need the 12V to 24Volt power supply for any of the BoB spindle control outputs to work correctly.

I think you need to use the P1-PWM terminal and a GND terminal then configure Mach3 with the PWM Output onto the LPT parallel port Pin1.

Tweakie.