Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach4 General Discussion => Topic started by: Overloaded on January 25, 2018, 08:26:29 PM
-
Hi folks.
I have 2 pc's that I bought from a financial institution in town along with several monitors.
Both pc's are Dell with enough processor and memory for Mach4 but both are loaded with Vista.
What would you suggest for an OS ?
I'd like to have one on my machine and one on my desk for cad/cam and such. Neither would be online (internet).
I see 10 Pro is 200 bucks a clip.
Newest thing I have here is XP Pro.
Thanks,
Russ
-
I have been using windows 7 with great success on all of my CNC machines. I am upgrading from XP to Win7 on all the existing machine computers and when I build a new computer as well.
My daily computer is windows 10 with as much junk turned off as possible.
Mike
Mike
-
Running Windows 10 here.
-
I've got a 7 - 32bit disc that I bought a few years back for a machine but never used it. Used a PLC instead.
Will it load on 2 pcs?
-
Hi,
my machine has Windows7 Embedded Standard 32 bit, has been fine.
Until recently my laptop was Windows8 but it had a meltdown. As I had a licence for Windows7 Embedded I loaded
that onto my laptop, 32 bit. May have been a mistake, only effectively have 2.5G RAM despite 8 G being fitted.
Have had trouble trying to fire up Machs Lathe profile.
Will over the weekend try my machine just to see whether the 32bit Windows7 Emmbedded is adequate to allow
Machs Lathe profile to load.
It seems that the GUI load but my laptop trips up when loading the canned cycle module and the lathe panel.
Have yet to work out how to overcome that limitation, it does load OK from time to time, and once it loads it runs
fine. I have to hold my tongue to the left!
Craig
-
Thanks Craig, that's encouraging.
I'm anxious to try 7 out tomorrow.
Please post how well you got along.
Regards,
Russ
-
Hi,
no trouble with Win7 32bit except when loading the lathe profile. I thought it was a memory issue but maybe its a firewall or virus problem...haven't
sorted it out yet.
Craig
-
Maybe graphics ?
Gads of images in those wizards.
Maybe reload lathe without the wizards and see how it runs.
-
I've got a 7 - 32bit disc that I bought a few years back for a machine but never used it. Used a PLC instead.
Will it load on 2 pcs?
It will load on as many PCs as you want but you will a different "COA" for each one. I have had good luck buying Win7 COAs on eBay for short money and they work when activating windows through Microsoft. I was leary that they were fake so I tried one and it worked so I bought 3 more and 2 have worked so far. I haven't tried to install the third one yet.
Mike.
-
Coming from an IT background as opposed to any Mach 4 specific issues, I'd recommend you go with either Windows 7 or Windows 10.
Vista and Windows 8.1 are both best avoided.
Windows 10 doesn't require any more processing power than Windows 7 so if you had a straight choice between the two, go with 10. However, the cost may be a factor although I'm not sure if you can even legitimately buy 7 anymore?
-
Running Windows 10 here.
Pro ?
Thanks.
-
Windows 10 Pro is $150.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832588491
It doesn't make sense to "upgrade" to an old operating system.
-
Windows 10 Pro is $150.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832588491
It doesn't make sense to "upgrade" to an old operating system.
Good point Gerry.
Not being very "savvy", are there any foreseeable issues going with the OEM over the retail version ? Just for a machine controller.
Thanks,
Russ
-
Not being very "savvy", are there any foreseeable issues going with the OEM over the retail version? Just for a machine controller.
Assuming you mean Home versus Professional (you can't buy the OEM version, it only comes with a PC) then see https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/compare for the differences.
Assuming you aren't too paranoid about security i.e. can do without Bitlocker which encrypts the hard drive of the PC and don't need to join a domain, you should be fine with the Home version
-
Hi Tom.
No, I mean Win10PRO-OEM compared to 10PRO Retail.
NFS recommends 10Pro.
Thanks for looking,
Russ
-
Yes, you can buy an OEM version. I always buy OEM versions, and build my own PC's.
The advantage of the Pro version with Windows 10 is that you can defer automatic updates. Windows 10 Home doesn't allow you to.
-
also looks like they now do allow moving the OEM to a different MoBo if necessary. An initial no no .
? if I understand correctly.
Thanks
-
I don't think you can do that with any version? I think if you call them, you can if it's an identical replacement motherboard.
Licenses are tied to the PC, so it''s good for one PC (motherboard).
Fwiw, I haven seen a motherboard fail in about 20 years.
-
Yes, you can buy an OEM version. I always buy OEM versions, and build my own PC's.
I stand corrected. It seems Microsoft changed their licensing terms to forbid Joe Public from using OEM licenses beginning with Windows 7 but then reversed the decision beginning with Windows 10.
It also seems they didn't make it very clear that they were changing it which lead to many people continuing to sell OEM licenses of Windows 7.
OEM version means you don't have access to basic Microsoft tech support. The last time I called basic tech support I was halfway through explaining what a printer driver did to the 'expert' on the other end of the call when I realised that I was probably wasting my time and hung up :-)
-
Afaik, you've always been able to buy OEM licenses. My Windows 10 Pro is an upgrade from an OEM copy of Windows 8 that I bought, which doesn't match your theory.
The last time I needed to call Microsoft was when I was using Windows NT 4.
-
See https://www.howtogeek.com/197232/microsoft-is-misleading-consumers-with-windows-8.1-system-builder-licensing/ for a potted history.
I've had the misfortune to work for a Microsoft partner up until about a year ago so we had to play by the rules. Unfortunately finding out what the rules were on any given day was more or less impossible.
If you think that is fun, try getting MS to give a straight answer on portability of virtual machines between physical hosts...
And if you think THAT'S fun, try getting Oracle to give a licensing answer to anything other than "What's your annual IT budget? Right, send that to us."
-
See https://www.howtogeek.com/197232/microsoft-is-misleading-consumers-with-windows-8.1-system-builder-licensing/ for a potted history.
That's a very interesting read .... thanks.
Russ
-
So we're both right.
Technically, you weren't allowed to buy them, but they were readily available for purchase at the biggest online retailers.
-
OK. So I got one of the Dells running, loaded the latest M4 Hobby lathe demo and everything looks to be working REALLY well.
Nothing weird ... at all. Honestly, being the recommendations skipped over VISTA, I was expecting the worst.
I wonder why VISTA was not listed above but is included below to be used with the PP driver.
Does anyone know if the 32 bit Vista will work with the list of "ready" motion controllers ? Or, is that a question for the motion controller supplier ? I'm sort of hoping that it was just a typo in the upper list omitting Vista. All else is really looking good !
Dell Optiplex 740
Windows Vista Business
Service Pack 2
AMD Athalon Dual Core Processor 4400+ 2.3 GHz
Memory (RAM) 4.00 GB
System Type 32-bit Operating System
On-board video is a bit weak at 128 but I could add a better card. ?
These were wiped clean and set up fresh by the IT dept and are sharp and fast !
Fingers crossed .......... :)
Thanks :)
-
Hi Russ,
I think that combo should be fine.
I run my machine with a dual core Atom CPU with on chip graphics on a miniITX board with 4 Gig. smurph calls the graphics on the Atom 'execrable' and its CPU power
is even less than a single core Athalon XP CPU I used years ago but it runs Mach4 just fine.
smuprh has also experimented with a 'mud' board, a slightly more powerful CPU than mine and he reports that it works fine as well. I think the graphics demand
by Mach4 is very much less than Mach3, at least once the initial draw is done.
Any attempt to redraw while Mach3 was running caused Mach3 to halt with the usual consequences. Mach4 on the other hand has never given me any grief like that.
The only real problem with the Atom is that if I try and load a largish file (about 5M) its very slow to load and draw. The second issue is that with a 32bit OS the CPU
can only address about 2.5 Gig of RAM. As it turns out that has been sufficient for my machine. I recently had to install 32bit Windows 7 onto my laptop after a meltdown
left me without a usable copy of Windows 8. The laptop has 8 Gig installed but only 2.5 usable and I keep running into memory shortages, never thought I'd say it but
I miss Windows 8!
Craig
-
Just for information really...
A couple of years back large numbers of Win7 Pro PC’s were being replaced and scrapped here in the UK (government or large corporate concern perhaps). An enterprising trader removed the COA’s before scrapping the hardware.
I am not sure of all the rules here but using the Win10 Pro iso. (legally downloadable from Microsoft website) or an official installation disc, the Win10 Pro installation can be activated with the Win7 Pro key even though the free upgrade offer ended July 2016.
How is this possible? – I really don’t know but I have just done it with this disc and COA.
If you check out ebay, the old COA’s are around £6.00 and the new (unused) scratchable COA’s around £17.00.
Tweakie.
-
Thanks guys.
So, Vista has nothing at all to do with it ? ?
Am I to be the first guinea pig ? (or link to another)
Would love a confirmation from Steve Smurph.
And/or Steve Stallings perhaps ?
Thanks again Gents,
Russ
-
I can't answer for either Steve or indeed for Mach4 but in general, any APPLICATION that runs on Windows 7 will run on Vista.
Typically, when you see that an application is supported on certain versions of Windows it means that the product has been TESTED against those versions of Windows, not that it's KNOWN not to work with versions not listed.
Windows 7 and Windows Vista have very broad compatibility, I'm yet to encounter an app that would run on one but not the other.
Drivers, on the other hand, are another matter. Here you're more likely to encounter issues if a version isn't supported. This is because the framework for drivers gets updated with most Windows version upgrades although they mostly maintain backwards compatibility.
I've had fairly good luck with using drivers certified for older or newer versions of Windows on versions they weren't supported by. That said, if my sound card doesn't work properly it doesn't have the potential to cause thousands of pounds worth of damage so I'd probably stick with supported versions for CNC breakouts :-)
-
Typically, when you see that an application is supported on certain versions of Windows it means that the product has been TESTED against those versions of Windows, not that it's KNOWN not to work with versions not listed.
That is precisely what I am inquiring about. Well said.
So much of this adventure is non-typical.
smurph, Brett and Mr. Stallings would/(do) definetly know the answer.
Might have to try a different posting.
Thanks TommyG,
Russ
-
Windows Vista was released 11 years ago. That's a long time ago. :)
-
:) I knew I saw this earlier, don't know how I overlooked it while searching this time.
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,31954.msg222381.html#msg222381
The following is from the PMDX website.
System requirements for the computer running Mach4 are:
PREFERRED: 32 or 64-bit Laptop or Desktop - Using an External Motion Controller
Windows XP with SP3, Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 10 Pro
(Windows 10 Home not recommended because updates always install automatically)
(As development tools evolve it is becoming harder to support XP and it may become
deprecated in the future.)
An appropriate external motion controller such as the SmartBOB series by PMDX.
Mach4 Plugin for the selected Motion Controller
2Ghz processor in native mode (virtual machines not supported)
Multi-core processor strongly recommended. If single core please enable hyperthreading in your BIOS.
minimum memory 1GB RAM for XP or Vista, 2GB for Windows 7 and later, Mach4 updates may raise minimums
recommended memory 2GB RAM for XP or Vista, 4GB for Windows 7 and later
Video graphics (card or integrated) with 256MB RAM minimum (Large G-code files, especially 3D files will require a video card with 512MB RAM or higher)
Video graphics must support Open GL version 1.5 or later
Wired Ethernet controller (USB adapters are OK but must remain plugged in, using a wireless Ethernet adapter for your PCID will cause problems) Network connection is not required while running MACH4.
ALTERNATE: 32-bit Desktop - Using parallel port for control
32-bit version of Windows XP with SP3, Windows Vista, or Windows 7
(Windows 8 and later cannot use the printer port for CNC control)
Desktop computer with a parallel port using a DB-25 connector
Using a laptop and its parallel port with Mach4 is not recommended or supported.
Using a USB to printer converter will not work because the converter will corrupt the timing.
Mach4 Parallel Port Legacy Plugin (must be purchased separately)
Legacy Parallel Port Plugin does NOT support Lathe Threading, Backlash Compensation, or Plasma Cutter Torch Height Control and these features are NOT planned for the future.
2Ghz processor in native mode (virtual machines not supported)
Multi-core processor strongly recommended. If single core please enable hyperthreading in your BIOS.
minimum memory 1GB RAM for XP or Vista, 2GB for Windows 7 and later, Mach4 updates may raise minimums
recommended memory 2GB RAM for XP or Vista, 4GB for Windows 7 and later
Non-integrated Video Card with 256MB RAM minimum (Large G-code files, especially 3D files will require a video card with 512MB RAM or higher).
Motherboard based video graphics generally will not play well with the parallel port driver.
Video graphics must support Open GL version 1.5 or later.
Wired Ethernet controller (USB adapters are OK but must remain plugged in, using a wireless Ethernet for your PCID will cause problems) Network connection is not required while running MACH4.
Still wondering if one is correct, and the other not. :-\
Thanks,
Russ
-
Windows Vista was released 11 years ago. That's a long time ago. :)
My 39 Chevy is all original ... and still runs fine.
If it ain't broke, why fix it ? :)
-
I'm not completely sure on this RC but I think the reason Vista is not listed for use with an external motion device is that no external motion device manufacturer tested their plugin against Vista. I can't say as I blame them either. Vista was\is considered by most (evidently, microsoft too) a big typo in itself. Kind of a bastard child. Coupled with the fact that Microsoft had ended support for it before Mach4 even came out......... yeah, I wouldn't have given it the first thought myself.
-
And I'm guessing Art was kind of forced into making the parallel port driver work in Vista with 3 years ago (which was a huge pain form what i understand). Yeah, if you have it, might not hurt to throw it in. But if you don't, surely not worth the effort to.
-
OK, thanks. But PMDX does list it. (see above)
Here is an earlier post by PMDX referencing the NFS site that INCLUDES Vista.
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,28907.msg202863.html#msg202863
Currently, NFS does NOT include it, but PMDX does ?
Oh well, I guess we are all still just guessing. :)
-
And I'm guessing Art was kind of forced into making the parallel port driver work in Vista with 3 years ago (which was a huge pain form what i understand). Yeah, if you have it, might not hurt to through it in. But if you don't, surely not worth the effort to.
That's the good part. I have two fresh, free vista pc's all cleaned up and ready to go. (for what its worth ;D)
-
Yup, guessing here confirmed. Not like I have a Vista PC so can't confirm or deny either way.
That's the good part. I have two fresh, free vista pc's all cleaned up and ready to go. (for what its worth ;D)
Good for who? Lol
My 39 Chevy is all original ... and still runs fine.
If it ain't broke, why fix it ? :)
Good point. But installing Mach4 and using an external motion device on a Vista PC is the equivalent of adding air ride, ABS brakes and electronic fuel injection to that 39. If Vista works good for you, I'd run it to death. But similarly, if your car breaks chances are it's gonna be a bit more troublesome to fix than something that has parts that are readily available and doesn't require a specialist with knowledge of ancient technology. Well, setting a system up with Vista is no different. I think what you need to do is push on through with the Vista/Mach4 setup. When you get done you can be the resident specialist for such cases. You could probably even make some money doing it. Tons of it. I'm talking Elvis Presley rich. ;D
-
Cute analogy ... a little off ::), but cute ;D
I've only ever had 95, 98 and XP.
Didn't realize vista was such a turd. wow ... that different, huh ?
I don't have the time, money or resources to be the guinea pig on this one.
If the developers did an intentional detour around vista, that's cool. All I'm asking is for them to say so. :)
Till then, I guess me n' you'll keep guessin'. ;D
Thanks Brett,
Russ
-
Yup, and you know what they say.......... can't polish a turd. ;D
I wish I knew definitively for you but I don't. But I do know that most anyone knowing just a little about OSs avoided Vista all together.
The only thing about PCs that were designed to run a certain OS is that often they are lacking resources to run the next (even more bloated) version. But I guess since they didn't run a few hundred extra wires in that 39 in the anticipation of future advancements I can understand.
I hung in there with XP like a hair in a biscuit.... or so I thought. I only updated because I had to get a new UPS and it did not have drivers for XP. Some still run it today while I have been through Windows 7, 8.1 and for the last year I guess, 10. I haven't missed XP at all. But I sure didn't want to move on from it. It did all I needed (except work with my UPS..... and pretty much every peripheral device I have gotten since then). I have had to learn a few things over or the new ways of doing old things. It really wasn't that bad though and some of the new features are easy to warm up to.
My experience is the sweet spot for users of OSs and the hardware that it runs on is in the drivers seat (where most are, they drive the market). Not on the bleeding edge (hood ornament) or stuck in the past (holding onto the bumper with all you got to keep from getting left behind).
-
It is true that PMDX has not continued to test against Vista. Vista was
never very popular and we have not emphasized support for it.
That being said, Vista was the first of the Windows platforms to offer the
current set of Microsoft API interfaces and as such offers much better support
for Mach4 than XP does. Current development tools from Microsoft are making
it difficult to compile Mach4 to run on XP and it is likely that XP will be
deprecated in the future.
Currently we recommend Windows 7 as the best choice for people who
do not like Windows 8 or Windows 10.
-
Thank you very much Steve.
I have had excellent results using your products in the past and am planning to continue with your 424/407 combo when I move to Mach4. I commend you also on your documentation.
Thanks again,
Russ
-
Hi,
haven't spoken to anyone whos tried the LattePanda with Mach4 but the price is brill, just the OS alone costs more than the complete setup!
http://www.lattepanda.com/ (http://www.lattepanda.com/)
Craig
-
That is ridiculously cool !
-
Hi,
yeah the little LattePanda is pretty hard to beat.
The larger of the two has 4 gig RAM 32gig EMMC, sort of poor mans SSD and Enterprise Windows 10, based on Windows 10 PRO and the PRO version is required for
Mach all for $210.
This has more powerful options and without OS:
https://www.udoo.org/udoo-x86/ (https://www.udoo.org/udoo-x86/)
Craig