Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach4 General Discussion => Topic started by: rndpig on December 27, 2017, 11:44:33 AM
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Hello, I'm completely new to the CNC realm, but I'm excited that there's such a robust community here. I did like many newbies and I purchased a CNC from China (here's the eBay link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/4Axis-6040T-CNC-Router-Engraver-USB-Engraving-Drilling-Milling-Machine-3D-Cutter/192358600143?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649). This is labeled as a 6040T USB CNC. I've been able to perform basic controlling operations using the Planet-CNC USB motion controller software, which means there's a working USB driver installed. What I need help with now is getting Mach4 working to control the board.
I've purchased a Mach4 Hobby license, and my Mach4Mill settings profile is attached. I know the controller (labeled as JP-3163B) is junk, but I want to ensure I can competantly control the CNC with Mach4 before investing in a Gecko 540 controller. Could someone please help me diagnose why Mach4 isn't allowing me to control the motors? Below is an image of the control board, where you can see the jumper settings. When I power on the unit, I can hear it lock and when accessing via the Planet-CNC USB software, I have full control, but nothing is moving/changing when I use Mach4.
Your assistance is greatly appreciated!
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My guess is your controller doesn't have MACH4 support. I'd suggest not wasting too much time with it. I'm also not sure the Gecko 540 has a MACH4 driver either. I don't see one on their website. Plus that is a Parallel port board, not USB or Ethernet. For an all in one, I'd suggest a POKEYS57CNC or the PDMX-424 board. I just got my pokey board up and running and the support from PoLabs is excellent.
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Mach4 requires a motion controller with Mach4 support via a Mach4 plugin.
The G540 is not a motion controller, but a 4 axis stepper drive.
With Mach4, you would connect the G540 to the motion controller.
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Wow, you were both fast on the response; thank you. I'm still getting up to speed on the terminology, so hopefully, I didn't misspeak. The second board in the case is a JP-1635A (see attached), so perhaps that's the motion controller and the JP-3163B is the stepper drive?
Through projects at work, I've had experience with Pokeys boards, and it appears to be a cheap solution with good customer support. I hadn't seen the PDMX-424, but it also looks like a good solution. Considering Mach4 is the future, I felt it was pertinent to go with this version over Mach3. Am I hearing that it would be best for me to replace both the motion control and stepper drive boards for better options that are guaranteed to work with Mach4?
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The stepper drivers you have should work fine. Only the motion controller board you have won't work.
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Yeah, you can use any stepper drives that you want.
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Thanks for that, but other feedback about this hobby CNC suggests the stepper drive will eventually disappoint me as well. Thus, if a higher quality, all-in-one motion controller and stepper drive option is available, that sounds like a good solution here. Just to confirm, would either the PMDX or PoKeys solutions be all that I need? My task would then be to remove the existing boards and re-configure with the new board, correct? Is that something that a newbie like me can handle?
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Replacing the stepper drivers would typically accompany replacing the steppers with a similarly rated capability. You typically match the current rating of your stepper motors with a driver that can output a minimum of the steppers maximum capability. I would simply replace the motion controller with something compatible with MACH4, get it running, and then upgrade steppers/drivers if you find it necessary.
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BTW, I went a similar method to you. I purchased a 6040 frame without electronics and purchased my own electronics. Went through 2 motion controllers till I found the ones that truly support MACH4.
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RBeaubien - so what components did you ultimately go with? For the price I paid, I had no expectations that this 6040 would work outright, and while there were electronics inside, I have no issue with replacing components to build a nice hobby CNC.
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I went pretty strong as I want to cut carbon fiber and aluminum mainly. 425oz/in stepers: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/hybrid-stepper-motor/nema-23-bipolar-3nm-425ozin-42a-57x57x114mm-4-wires-cnc-stepper-motor-23hs45-4204s.html
and the M542 Stepper drivers: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/hybrid-stepper-motor/nema-23-bipolar-3nm-425ozin-42a-57x57x114mm-4-wires-cnc-stepper-motor-23hs45-4204s.html
along with the POKEYS57CNC Motion Controller.
It is my intention to cut parts for a new Z- and Y-axis for the frame. I want a larger Z-Axis than the current 70mm and need it to be solid.
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Okay, I had the sense you were good at this, but now I feel silly for posting my problems! I've been digging through the specs on all components in the electronics enclosure I received, and attached is a photo of everything. Looking up the JP-1635A board suggests that's the stepper for my 4th axis (A), which means that the JP-3163B must be both the motion controller and stepper driver, correct? Apart from the 24V power supply and spindle controller, there's nothing else in the box. While I'm not as competent as this individual (https://hackaday.io/project/6776-3040-cnc-milling-machine-mods/log/20946-day-1), I'm thinking about modifying my case to receive the replacement PMDX or PoKeys board and leave everything else as-is. Do you think that would work?
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Hi,
that controller board has three stepper drivers on it. If you remove the controller you in effect remove the stepper drivers as well.
The six white ICs on the board look like optocouplers to the driver ICs so it might be possible to 'insert' signals from another controller and have the drivers respond to it and
leave the existing board in place but the controller section of it would be idle.
While you could do that unless you have fair electronic skills it likely to be a battle. I note that you said the power supply is 24V. That is a low voltage for steppers
and they will be pretty slow. The golden rule is that with steppers the higher the DC input voltage the faster you can spin them without stalling or missing steps.
Given the comparatively low voltage which could be a reflection of the voltage limits of the driver ICs then the effort to modify what you have just to use three
underperforming stepper drives becomes even less attractive.
It is highly likely that you will replace the stepper drives at some point. Those driver IC's are pretty tender. If one blows you have to desolder it and replace it.
If you cant desolder without damage to the board or you can't find/buy a new IC then you throw the whole board away. Even if the ICs didn't fail you will be
disappointed at the axis speeds you can achieve with only 24V.
The real option is to replace the controller with a Mach4 ready board, fit a breakout board should your selected controller require it, and replace those stepper drivers
ideally with a matching high (50-70V) voltage supply.
Clearly if you are buying quality parts the you may expect to spend $500-$1000. Is this within your budget? The fact that you have bought Mach4 means that you are committed
to getting a Mach4 controller, the simplest and cheapest from known manufacturers are $120. Such simple devices have 'one ports worth' of IO. They are adequate for
a simple router but lack the IO for any real expansion. The PMDX-424 has two ports, the ESS has three ports, the UC300 has five ports and the 57CNC has the equivalent
of three and bit ports. Any of these devices will work, all have reputable backup.
As for stepper drivers Gecko has a well deserved reputation for quality and reliability. The G540 is a breakout board and 4 axis driver combined. It is 50V capable,
good but not earth shattering. Many people use it with satisfaction, they are $300. You could also buy individual Gecko drives which are rated to 70-80V but
they will cost something like $150 each
A number of experienced CNCers on the forum recommend Leadshine AM882 drivers, capable to 80V and up to 8A. They can be had for about $80 each, good value.
Craig
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Here is the box I built. I have made room for a 4th axis. It has a 600w 36v power supply.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171227/cb5d54435deb8e3029cbf350c0e3ff40.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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Thanks for the input. Ideally, I'd like to spend no more than an additional $300 to find a Mach4-compatible motion controller and stepper drivers, and the suggestions that have been put forth in this thread certainly fit the bill. I'm lucky to have a friend close-by who is an actual engineer (unlike me, I'm a biologist), and he's going to review the thread and help me work toward a good solution here.
I just want to state once more how impressed I am with the liveliness of members of this forum. This is highly encouraging for a newbie like me, and I look forward to contributing back ASAP.
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Hi,
for that budget you'll get a good external motion controller Mach4 ready but not much more.
Nice pic of the box but the boards in it are different from the pic in your earlier post?
Hard to make out whats what...
Craig
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Hi All,
sorry should pay more attention, that's Rob's box of goodies not OPs.
Looks good Rob.
Craig
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NEMA 23 Stepper - $25.21 * 4 = 100.84
M542T Stepper driver - $31.93 * 4 = $127.72
POKEYS57CNC $159.22
Total: $387.78 + shipping/taxes
You'd also likely need a higher output power supply. A 36v 600w power supply will be $80, or a 48v 1000w will be $150 so $500 would be bottom end decent for a hobby machine.
And to clarify, I don't have the CNC experience, but I do have a lot of experience with Stepper motors and drivers from building and using 3D printers for years, so I am comfortable recommending those parts.
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Hi rndpig,
my confusion notwithstanding.....your budget pretty much precludes replacing the drivers at least with good quality ones.
There are plenty of cheap Chinese driver boards on EBay but all of low quality. It maybe that you have to get one as a temporary measure.
The other possibility is as I suggested earlier and modify your existing controller so that you can use the stepper drivers only.
My training/profession/obsession is electronics. If I had the board in front of me I could probably tell you within ten minutes whether what I've proposed is
feasible. In absence of the board I would like some detailed pics of the board close up. In particular I wish to see the circuit traces of the six white Opto ICs.
Where abouts in the world are you...I live in New Zealand so I can pretty much guarantee that I'm a long way from you. It still might be feasible to send me the board
and withy luck ( could modify it and send it back without costing us a fortune in postage.
Craig
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Hey Craig, correct me if I'm wrong, but since it looks like that board has a parallel port on it, couldn't he use a UC100 motion controller? Might be a cheap way to get going. ( I did confirm you can connect to PC with parallel port).
EDIT: https://cnc4pc.com/catalog/product/view/id/978/s/pokeys57cncdb25-motion-controller-for-mach4/category/152/
You should be able to use this with your electronics as is with MACH4.
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Hi Rob,
yes you are right.
To OP,
as Rob has pointed out if you were to use a UC100 (or an PMDX-411 or a 57CNCD25) you could just plug into the parallel port socket on your controller board
and it would work That would require that you have decent info about your board so you can match to the UC100. Do you have GOOD documentation
with your controller?
The only other issue is that future expansion is very limited, the UC100 has one ports worth of IO. If you are of the opinion you will want more in the near future
you'd be better off buying a more capable unit straight up. However all three devices are attractively priced, around $120USD. Just as a warning there are lots of
Chinese UC100 knockoffs on Ebay in particular. DON'T waste your money on that rubbish, go direct to CNCDrive or their nominated distributor.
Craig
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Craig - I’m in the US and while I appreciate your generous offer, I’d rather replace existing junk with higher quality components.
I’m going to get some local engineering eyes on my situation and I’ve passed this thread to my local contact so he can help me make a decision. It seems straightforward to purchase a motion controller with expansion capacity and then gain CNC experience before replacing steppers down the road.
You’ve all been great and thank you for being so responsive all day today. I’m watching some good football while typing this post, so I’ll sign off and bid you all a good night.
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Or this, plug it straight into that par port
https://www.pmdx.com/PMDX-411
I have a couple of PMDX products, a 126 and a 107, and am happy to vouch for the quality and attention to detail in the electronics design and execution, rock solid and reliable with superb support.
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As time allows, I've made good progress on getting my setup working. Based on submitted feedback, I've added a Pokeys 57CNC motion controller board that communicates with the original JP-3163B stepper driver via a custom cable (see attached photos). I've been able to print mounts that still allows me to use the original controller housing, but I'm having a few issues getting smooth control over the CNC.
At this point, I can control the Pokeys board via Mach4 and when I send MDI commands, they're being transmitted by the Pokeys57CNC motion controller and relayed through the JP-3163B stepper driver. However, just doing a test on the x-axis runs, the motion appears to be jerky or not smooth when I use a feed rate less than 50. With help from an engineering colleague, I've been messing with the counts per unit (i.e., the steps per unit) for the x-axis motor, and while I don't know the exact specs of my leadscrews, I've pretty much got it dialed in to get the correct distance per input I provide in the MDI code. My problem is that I can't figure out why I'm not getting smooth motion when testing the x-axis.
I've convinced myself that this isn't a hardware problem because I have a direct drive setup and the stepper motor isn't physically slipping on the leadscrew. As I try to diagnose the issue, I've noticed that the jerky motion isn't consistent from run-to-run, but it is certainly much worse when I use a slow feed rate. Any feed rate less than 50 and I'm sure to lose distance moved because the motion hesitates at some point. In the attached video (http://www.amazon.com/photos/share/LzcklOx62Hd6FQ00eDM10hM5eXv15WHFSIYEV0rsoyw (http://www.amazon.com/photos/share/LzcklOx62Hd6FQ00eDM10hM5eXv15WHFSIYEV0rsoyw)), you can hear the hesitation (low hum goes away during hesitation). I tried to keep my phone still while recording, but there are places in the 30-second video where you can see and hear the problems I'm having.
Any ideas of what may be going on? Could it be that the Pokeys57CNC motion controller is sending commands to the JP-3161B stepper driver too quickly? If so, what would I need to change in the configuration? I didn't find an option in the Pokeys plugin config that allowed me to change the baud rate or even change the communication speed. When I used the Pokeys diagnostics tool, it appeared that the communication was never more than 25% of max, so I'm really at a loss here.
Any ideas?
Ryan
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I went pretty strong as I want to cut carbon fiber and aluminum mainly. 425oz/in stepers: https://www.oyostepper.com/category-1-b0-Hybrid-Stepper-Motor.html
and the M542 Stepper drivers: https://www.oyostepper.com/category-16-b0-Stepper-Motor-Driver.html
along with the POKEYS57CNC Motion Controller.
It is my intention to cut parts for a new Z- and Y-axis for the frame. I want a larger Z-Axis than the current 70mm and need it to be solid.
I have confront the some problem as above commentros. I have a robots, i face some problems.
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If I was King of the land, which I am not............. ;)
A declaration would be made such that any Chinese junk 60xx controller would be considered contraband and must be destroyed.
Anyone in possession or providing the contraband item would have only two options, namely, life imprisonment or death.
Back to dreaming ............. , ;D
RICH
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If I was King of the land, which I am not............. ;)
A declaration would be made such that any Chinese junk 60xx controller would be considered contraband and must be destroyed.
Anyone in possession or providing the contraband item would have only two options, namely, life imprisonment or death.
Back to dreaming ............. , ;D
RICH
Excellent ;D
Tweakie.
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Hi,
you've done well and got a good external motion controller and very much doubt its causing your problem. I think those stepper drivers are the problem.
Do you have them setup for microstepping? The problem you describe sounds like midband resonance which is common in cheap drivers and especially with no
microstepping employed.
Craig
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Craig,
Thanks for the reply, and I'm sorry that the thread went a little off-topic here recently. I will say that being a novice, I've learned far more by having to really dig into the hardware/software, which is in contrast to the sentiments being expressed recently.
I will ensure that the steppers are set up for microstepping, but I believe I'm missing a few set screws to connect the stepper motors to the leadscrews. I'm trying to figure out the setscrew specs now, but when I sacrificed some from another axis, the X-axis motion issue appeared to go away. Thus, I'm beginning to conclude that this was a hardware issue all along.
Regards,
Ryan
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I can make the JP3163b working fine but i can NOT set up the input for the probe can everyone know how to set it up for the input probe.
that all i need so i can run. my system to setup to run with UC100 USB motion controller for the config is X = 2/3 Y = 4/5 Z = 6/7 A = 8/9
they are running fine.
Thank you in advance.
my email is mctslc@gmail.com
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Hi,
the probe is an input into Mach4.
The UC100 in a sense mimics a parallel port and replicates a parallel port numbering.
pin 1 output
pins 2-9 outputs
pins10-13,15 inputs
pins 14,16,17 outputs.
You need to decide which of the very few inputs you have to spare, pins 10-13 and 15, and connect one of them to your probe.
Then in the UC100 plugin you need to connect that pin to Machs Probe signal.
Craig