Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => Mach4 General Discussion => Topic started by: Sage on November 06, 2017, 10:57:00 PM
-
I posted the following in the parallel port discussion topic with no response.
Does anyone have the parallel port working with Mach4. Specifically with the charge pump activated? I'd be interested in comparing configurations.
I have been in contact (for several months) with NFS support and they have confirmed that (as I observed) the charge pump signal from Darwin initially comes up and then fails just after Mach4 startup. It requires a toggle of the enable / disable screen button to get it going again. This would not be a big problem except that when if fails the DRO's still change but the axis' do not move because the lack of charge pump signal has disabled the drives. So then the disable/enable trick has to be done and a re-calibrate is required.
In my latest exchange with support they have indicated that they have no (financial) interest in working further to correct the issue and suggest I purchase a motion controller instead. Fair enough I guess but it makes me wonder why they continue to sell the parallel port plug-in (Darwin) when it has this bug. Then it makes me wonder - if they have sold more than the one I have - what have others done to make it work. Maybe I've missed something.
So, Is the parallel port finally dead?
Sage
-
Hi,
is there any reason that you want a charge pump? The charge pump idea has just about gone the way of the dinosaurs in Mach3 let alone Mach4.
Craig
-
The person who did that plug in said the parallel port is dead, it should work with the charge pump off.
it's off limited actions anyway it's only useful for a 3 axis machine I used it for about 6 months then got a pokeys on Arts remediation.
-
Hi,
I believe Art has expressed that he has no intention to add some of the features that have become standard fare...THC and lathe threading.
Arts intent is clear, the parallel port is in its last iteration.
Do yourself a favour and get an external motion controller. As dude1 has mentioned the PoKeys 57CNC has a good reputation as does the PMDX-424 and Warp9's ESS.
CNCDrive have just released a Mach4 plugin for their UC300 which if it proves to be as successful as its Mach3 version will be good. Vital Systems has long enjoyed
a full featured Mach4 ready controller and CSLabs have just released aMach4 plugin. Both manufacture really nice gear but at quite a premium compared to the first
four I mentioned.
Craig
-
The pokeys as far as I know are the closest to being up to date within days of a M4 update
-
Hi,
just having a Mach4 plugin doesn't guarantee that it will work. Pokeys, PMDX, Warp9 and Vital Systems have the most mature Mach4 plugins. CSLabs
and CNCDrives have only just been released. I have seen some threads that indicated that CSLabs had some minor bugs which, given their stated intent, to
hold back on a Mach4 plugin release until all bugs had been worked out must be very annoying.
Even a mature Mach4 plugin can have issues, Warp9s ESS plugin has lathe threading code but won't synchronise at the start of the thread, a fatal flaw. So just
because a company has experience in releasing working Mach4 ready plugins does not make them immune from faults.
At this stage all of the manufacturers have a well established and good reputation in the Mach market with existing Mach3 products and are producing very
creditable Mach4 products. What happens when our Chinese friends start producing their versions remains to be seen, if their Mach3 products are anything to
go by then probably not too flash!
Craig
-
Yer very true
-
Thanks for all the comments on why I should or shouldn't switch to a motion controller but my original question was whether anyone has the parallel port working WITH the charge pump. So I'd rather stay on topic. But to answer your comments:
The charge pump is an important safety feature. If the software goes into the weeds - in theory - the charge pump signal should also fail and will shut down the drive.
We all know how flakey Mach4 (and even Mach3) has been throughout development so I figured it was probably a good safety feature to keep. Besides that I was always switching back and forth between Mach3 and Mach4 to test it for NFS because I have an older XP machine. It was a simple software switch to test, identify problems and then get back to work. No hardware changes required. I was hoping NFS would stand behind the product that I paid extra for and at least fix the bug. I guess not. I'm not expecting them to do any further development on it.
Darwin works fine on my mill other than this problem.The charge pump works. It's just that it comes up and then fails after program startup.
Joeaverage: You mention that the Smooth stepper works in Mach4 - the USB version???. I didn't think so. I have one of those. Brand new - on the shelf - never used - never needed. As far as I'm aware it's a dead product and was a waste of money on my part. But I don't keep up to date on their work so maybe I stand corrected - let me know.
So back to the question. Does anyone have the parallel port working in Mach4 WITH the charge pump. Maybe I missed something in the (very) convoluted configuration.
-
Hi,
rubbish, I've been using Mach3 for three years and Mach4 for another year and I've never had a crash where the machine lost it because the PC went wild.
I've had plenty of crashes and in every case I've done something wrong. I've also had a few where the PC stops or is temporarily overloaded which can
break tools but I've never had a machine run away like that.
A charge pump is a bit like the airlines offering you a lifejacket as a safety measure, as if you're ever likely to survive getting off the thing in the first place!
Craig
-
Hi,
AFAIK the USB Smoothstepper does not have a complete Mach4 plugin, the Ethernet version does. The plan is that the ESS plugin will be finished before
serious work begins on the USB plugin. Backlash Beta has just been released (last week). Much of the code is written for lathe threading and THC but is not
yet working, next several months is my guess.
Warp9 are talking an API for the smoothstepper which would be a quantum leap forward but is some time away. The Mach4 plugins completion is their stated
priority.
One last question about the charge pump....have you ever had the charge pump shut down and prevent an immanent runaway?
Craig
-
One last question about the charge pump....have you ever had the charge pump shut down and prevent an immanent runaway?
Craig
Nope. But most fighter pilots have never used their parachute either. ;)
It's there, I expect it to work. But I guess if NFS has no interest in fixing it (for whatever reason) There's nothing I can do about it except bypass it.
So. back to the original question.
Does anyone have Mach4 working with the parallel port and the charge pump?? - OR - Lets start simple. Is anyone using the parallel port at all with Mach4?
Because it works well except for the bug. Why should I throw more money away on a motion controller. I've been waiting for years to get something to show for the money I threw away on the USB Smooth Stepper.
-
Hi,
NFS never wrote the Darwin plugin, that was Art Fennerty.
Craig
-
Yeah. I know all about it. If you go over to the Parallel port discussion thread you'll see I was working with Art on testing it. I don't know the arrangement but NFS appears to claim ownership for it now (in so far as they are selling and supporting it at least) and I've been back and forth with support quite a bit. They can duplicate the issue but say there is no financial incentive to work on it. Also apparently Art no longer has a machine with a parallel port to take a look at it. (at least the way I interpret emails anyway). A shame they continue to sell a (less than perfect) parallel port driver.
I guess the parallel port really is dead. (unless you work around it). A shame really because it works well.
But. I still like to hear from ANYONE that has it working with the charge pump activated.
-
The charge pump does not work as you have found out so how many people useing the charge pump is more than likely 0. I tried the charge pump root it did not work.
even the dude that made the gecko g540 says to turn the charge pump off
-
Hi,
Brand new - on the shelf - never used - never needed
Why did you buy it if you've never used it?
The ESS allowed me to up the speed of the steppers from 1800 rpm to 2400 rpm with the same heat load
and better reliability (loss of steps/stall). Mach is now very much less sensitive to stopping due to other software
and screen redraws with the ESS aside from having a much greater choice of PCs and OSs to run Mach.
Craig
-
I bought it because it was cool I guess. ;) I'm always tempted by new toys and it was supposed to be much better than the parallel port. But on my machine it wasn't that much better.
Also it was about the time the rumors were abound that parallel ports would not be available on newer computers. But I happened upon a really fast old machine with XP and a parallel port so there was really no need to change machines. This machine runs Mach4 just fine. I also had visions of making a smaller footprint package with a new computer. Never got around to it. "If it ain't broke.....
I have 1200oz/in steppers and Gecko drives. It never loses steps and moves faster than the rigidity of the machine can handle.
As I mentioned I wanted to maintain my Mach3 machine and be able to switch to Mach4 for testing back when everyday there was a new and defective edition to be tried. It was a simple restart with different software. I have work to do with my machine so I stick with what works. (Mach3). But I still mess with Mach4 once in a while to see what's new. Seems very stable now.
One day I'll switch but it has to be such that I can switch back. I can't have a machine that gives me problems.
I'm still looking for someone that uses the parallel port with Mach4 - with the charge pump preferably.
Dude1: The charge pump can be made to work. It's just that it drops out a bit after startup. Once you toggle the enable / disable button your good to go. But I think it also requires a double toggle of the enable / disable if it ever gets disabled. This leads to forgetting to do so and then you go to move and nothing moves and the DRO's are off the actual position and a re-cal is required. It's just a pain. Again: because I wanted to be able to switch between Mach3 and Mach4 the config had to be one way or the other on my breakout board. Yes I could turn it off for both but it's a matter of principle. The driver is defective and I guess I'm crazy to think NFS should fix it.
-
Hi,
yeah, I've got a 'you beaut' low backlash angle drive like that, kool, but so far i haven't got around to exploiting it.
My steppers 'sound' so much happier when being driven by the ESS.
Craig
-
So to be clear you are using which Mach version and Which Smooth stepper?
-
Hi,
Mach4 and ESS, previously Mach and dual parallel port.
Overall I rate the Mach4/ESS combination better. It terms of movement there's not much in it, my steppers run
smoother and cooler, not a lot but some, and about 1/3 faster than before. Mach4 has proven to be a bit more stable
than Mach3 and very much less sensitive to CPU demand, not that I had any complaint against Mach3.
I definitely like Lua/wxWigets/Mach API and Mach4s modular structure over Mach3, very much more dependable and
flexible than Mach3.
To my knowledge the only features that I'm missing are THC and lathe threading. I don't have a plasma or a lathe
so is not of concern to me. Those features are part of the motion controller so the ball is in Warp9s court at the moment.
Much of the preliminary work is done so by years end or early in the new year those features will be added.
When I switched I had like you thought to have both operating so I could change back and forth at will. In the event
I found with the ESS that was not easy and further once I had Mach4 running there was nothing about Mach3 that I missed.
Whether I would come to the same conclusion if I were operating as a business I don't know.
If you were making your own machine, particularly some specialist machine for coil winding or cylindrical grinding or whatever
the flexibility of Mach4 would be a slam dunk.
Craig
-
Sage to me haveing to fluff around like that is a waste of time, I tried it and read the same thing at the time when I tried it.
-
Joeaverage: I guess you're using the network ESS? Because I thought the USB ESS did not have a Mach 4 driver yet - right?
SO rather than spend more money. I'll hold out until they get the USB ESS working. Then I'll switch. OR I'll just turn off the charge pump and use Mach4 with the parallel port or stick with Mach3.
dude1: Exactly. You shouldn't have to fuss with it. That's why I'd like to see them fix the bug and present a finished product. Especially when they are charging extra for it.
But (as before) I'd still be interested in hearing from anyone using the parallel port with Mach4 with the charge pump.
-
Hi,
yes that's correct, the ESS is Ethernet Smooth Stepper. The Ethernet offers measurably less latency than USB. USB still works pretty damn well, latency
or not.
When I made the decision to switch to Mach4 my intention was to use a parallel port, after all I'd had plenty of success with Mach3 and dual PP. But then
it occurred to me that despite buying secondhand off Ebay I paid an average of $200 each for my Vexta drivers over $200 for my steppers with low backlash
planetary gearboxes, over $1000 for a German made spindle....and the list goes on. Why would I pinch pennies after spending lots for the best I could afford
for everything else?
I have found myself in similar situations before where I come on all righteous about spending a sum of money when I have blithely done exactly that for
another item which may have less overall impact than the item in question. That's how the ESS is, a smallish investment in the overall scale of what I've
put into my mill and yet it has probably the most impact on how it will perform. So I bought it. It has proven to be money well spent. Its not magic by
any stretch of the imagination but I have smoother and more reliable motion as a result. In addition I've had to learn a whole bunch about Ethernet
comm protocols, the internals of motion controls and so on. Any and all learning is a positive outcome for our hobby.
I think your strategy is fine. Quite frankly worrying about the charge pump I think is a waste of energy and I don't think anyone in NFS or Art F have any interest
is such an arcane fault. I never had a charge pump with Mach3 and don't need one with Mach4 either. The parallel port still works pretty damn well. Art has
said right from the get go that Darwin will never have all the features that the Mach3 PP had, like single point lathe threading and so on. When you exhaust the
possibilities of Darwin there are a number of external motion controllers around the $200 mark.
The question is best placed on the Warp9 forum but the USB Smooth Stepper has a smaller FPGA IC in it than the Ethernet Smooth Stepper. There is a question
whether there is enough silicon real estate in the smaller FPGA to achieve all that has been accomplished with the ESS. It seems the answer is....probably....
but until Andy actually tries it no one knows for sure.
Either way I suspect that over a period of time you'll become addicted to the flexibility of Mach4 and quietly Mach3 will drop out of sight. I've never really fiddled with
Modbus in Mach3 until recently, trying to help someone else, and it made me realise that the Mach4 Modbus plugin is JUST SO MUCH BETTER!!! This is just the
latest realisation of what amounts to quite a list of powerful and flexible features built into Mach4s structure.
Craig
-
All good points. I can turn the charge pump off any time with the flip of a dip switch. It's just a matter of principle. I have no pressing need to go to Mach 4. I've been waiting a couple of years now for a finished Mach4 solution. I guess it's probably out there now. Just the same I'll wait and see what becomes of the USB ESS solution. If I buy anything it will probably be the PoKeys device. They seem to be the teachers pet with NFS. (Just my observation).
In the mean time I'm still wondering if there is anyone out the using the parallel port with Mach 4 (at all)
-
Hi Sage,
If it’s any help…
I did use the parallel port plugin with Mach4 for some while but I never could get the charge pump to work and also had some problems with the PWM range of values.
I switched to using the ESS with Mach4 (the USS plugin may be some while catching up) although I only use Mach4 for testing / experimentation – all serious production work is still done with Mach3.
I recently purchased the Pokeys 57CNC (to use with Auggie) but have yet to try it with Mach4.
Tweakie.
-
Thanks Tweakie:
Quite some time ago I posted about this problem and a work-around was suggested for the charge pump. Basically it was to configure a second enabling signal for it.
https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,30991.msg215017.html#msg215017 (https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,30991.msg215017.html#msg215017)
Apparently it works but I never tried it in hopes that the real problem would be solved. I'll have to give it a try I guess.
As for the PWM problem, that's news to me. I presume you use that for motor speed? I don't have a motor speed control so I never ran into it. Just another brick in the wall.
Oh well. It is what it is I guess. To quote a recent email response from NFS concerning this issue "I am not sure what you would expect for $25". ???
Anyway, back to work - with Mach3. Eventually I'll break down and buy a motion controller. I'm in no rush. :-\
Case closed I guess.