Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Mavirick on September 18, 2017, 04:12:02 PM
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Hi all i purchased a CNCMASTERS CNC JR. Through a auction a few monthes ago the previous owner did a mach3 conversion on it but still working on the standard hardware and drives.
I have got the axis motors to work and the spindle issue is using them together. As soon as the spindel starts the axis motors goes haywire. But as soon as the spinde motor is off and the cnc jr. Is restarted the axis works fine till the spinle goes on again.
Hardware
Pc with win 10 64bit
Mach3 board and mach3mill software
Standard cnc jr. Motors and drivers
Speedmaster sm vfd
Kind regards
MAV
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Hi,
noise from the VFD is getting into your other power supplies, possibly PC and BoB/controller.
Does your BoB/controller have a seperate power supply? It probably should.
If you are using USB to communicate to the motion controller fit two or three clip on ferrite rings.
If the problem is real bad try plugging your VFD into a different power socket than your PC/BoB/controller.
You may need a line side reactor to tame your VFD.
Craig
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Hi Craig
It still uses the parallel port could that be a problem.
When i received the machine all the power was on one plug socket and the pc on another and the original owner said it worked fine like that... ill go tonight an change the vfd to its own power cable seperate from the pc and the bob use leads to connect the unit to different wall sockets so they are far apart from each other.
Could it be a shieling problem on the wires.
I urgently need to get this machine working ill stip it and do all new wireing and electics in december when i do shut down.
Thanx
MAV
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Sorry this should have said "Could it be a shielding problem on the wires."
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Hi,
Pc with win 10 64bit
this machine cannot be parallel port with that PC.
There are two schools of thought about electromagnetic interference:
1) The electrical equipment must minimise both conducted and radiated interference to other equipment
2) Electrical equipment should be designed and built to be minimally susceptible to conducted and radiated electromagnetic interference.
You may have noted that just about every piece of electrical gear has markings to signifying that the manufacturer has minimised the interference
produced by the piece of gear. This often entails untold expense by the manufacturer both in design and compliance. Then what happens is people
often and sometimes deliberately misuse or modify the gear so that it 'pollutes' the electromagnetic spectrum. Sometimes, especially cheap manufacturers,
cheat and their gear will never comply with the standard indicated.
VFDs are bastards at EM interference both conducted and radiated. Most people overlook conducted interference, it occurs because the current demand
of a piece of gear, a VFD for instance, causes a voltage imprint on the supply of other gear and interferes with its operation. A VFD can radiate interference
as well like a bad radio station. Screened cables, ferrite suppressors and things of that nature help other gear to resist bad radio waves but the real solution
is to stop the bad radio waves from being generated in the first place.
In the first instance you need to separate the supply to your PC/Bob/controller/stepper drives from your VFD supply with separate plugs plugged into
separate sockets. That may be enuf. Other than that you may need line reactors. You can fiddle about with screened cables and ferrites and you might
get it to work OR you go to the source of the problem as I've described.
Craig
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Hi craig jip its a I3 intel machine loaded with a gtx770 and 16gb ram with a PCI parallel port card installed so i can run the mach3 on it it works like a dream exept for the interferance as mentioned.
Than you so much for the help ill be at home in about 5 hours then ill try all this i hope it is a simple as that
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Hi,
can you confirm....Win 10 64 bit with a PCI parallel port running Mach3 with PP?
If you are doing that then you are able to make SERIOUS money, being the only person on the planet to be able to.
Craig
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Hi,
just had a look at the CNC Master website and they describe the control box communicating with the PC as USB connected, NOT parallel port.
Craig
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Ill post pics when im at home that use to be my job man applications developer
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Hi again craig this is the mach3 i have installed with the standard mach3 V2 software
http://www.cncdirect.co.za/htm/mach.html
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Hi,
well that certainly is a parallel port board pictured, and this is the board your using? It is a different setup than that pictured that comes as
standard with the mill.
Double check the OS of the PC.
Craig
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Craig its definately win 10 pro 64bit ill check if i can post a picture for you power is just off at the moment as soon as its back up ill start everything and take photos for you and post it
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Hi,
a 64 bit OS cannot support a parallel port. The PCI card must therefore be a motion controller...do you know what it is?
Craig.
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I'd like to see pictures of the control box internals and the outside wiring. Interference comes up all the time on this forum as well as the 3D printing forums and when you see pictures it is an OMG! moment where you say "you actually thought that would work?".
I layout electrical panels and do panel wiring and I virtually never see interference problems because I am very careful about layout, wire routing, and shielding
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Hi,
garylucas is right, can we see inside the controller.
The layout of the wiring is important. If you have separated the 230V inlet supplies you have gone a ways to prevent conducted interference.
If you have a cable carrying significant current like a spindle motor lying next to a signal cable carrying a few mA or less then the more powerful
cable will induce noise into its neighbour. Ideally you would separate the VFD/spindle and stepper wires from the signal wires. The stepper motor
currents don't seem to be giving you any grief so don't sweat them too much but you will need to separate both the 230V input cable to the VFD and
the cable to the spindle from the VFD from all the little signal wires and by several inches if you can.
The signal wires include the multicore parallel cable from the PC to the BoB, the Step and Dir plus Enables to the stepper drives and all the home
and limit switch wires. If you choose to use shielded cables earth only one end of the shield to one common earth usually at the BoB end.
For electrical safety you should earth the spindle motor back to the same common earth point along with the power earth. It is very important to
NOT accidentally earth the frame or other components of the machine with either shields or ground referenced signal wires, you will create a
ground loop which will induce noise into all the signals and drive you absolutely stark raving mad....I know...that's how I got to be like I am!
Craig
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Some suggested reading can be found in Member's Doc's posted by Chaoticone.
External E stop requested, Limit switch triggered and/or other nuisances, EMI
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,25616.msg180583.html#msg180583
RICH
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The problem of EMI can be complex and requires understanding, definition, and experience.
A lot of folks don't understand elementary electronics let alone able to relate to something they cannot feel or see. EMI / Noise / RF interference can be a real PITA. Knowing the source and possibly eliminating the culprit is the first or preferred step if possible. We often hear simple solutions and they get echoed over and over again. As Graig and Joe point out, good wiring practice can reduce the possibility of creating a problem. I won't ramble on as the subject is covered by many books BUT will say that sometimes it's just pure black magic and has no explanation !
BTW, Ever read that FCC lable for something that states the device must accept un-wanted signals? ::)
Back to the side lines, ;)
RICH
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Hi Rich
Thanx for the info im sure ill find the problem
Craig i havnt forgotten to take the photos they are replacing the powe cables to my workshop at the moment so there is no power. According to the contractors they should be done bu lunchtime tomorrow then hopefully i can get everything on again to take the phots for you.
Ill update you if i get the problem fixed
Thanx for all the help sofar
Mav
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Can someone please explain debounce in Mach3 what exactly does it do
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Hi,
debounce is a bit like a filter. If you set it Mach will wait until the signal has been constant for a period of time before it will act on it.
Imagine a big noise spike gets induced into one of your limit switches. If Mach responded instantly the machine would stop immediately thinking
that its preventing a crash. The big noise spike however will be over in nano seconds, if Mach waits for several micro seconds before responding
it would realise that the limit signal was false.
It is called debounce because it was originally for a switch. Often as a switch as it either makes or breaks its connection it will jitter and make-break several
times before it settles into its new state. A reasonable debounce setting in Mach prevented a 'bouncing' contact to cause multiple events.
It can be useful for suppressing noise but if the source of noise is quasi-continuous it won't work. As has already been posted its better to prevent the noise
from being 1) generated and 2) transmitted.
Craig
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Hi,
debounce is not going to help you, it applies to inputs to Mach, your problem is noise on the outputs...
Additionally the debounce setting you see on the General Setup screen applies to the parallel port whereas it
may not apply to the motion control you are actually using.
Craig
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Hi craig
Thats perfect explanation thanx
The contractors assured me they will be done today... but as we know contractors arent always relaible they were suppose to finish on monday already.
I hop they will be done by the time i get home so i can test all these theories i have bought brand ne shielded cables and a lot of bits so hopefully i van sort this all out tonight
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Hi,
I guess you must live in 'deepest darkest Affwicka', taking the 'darkest' to new levels...LOL
Craig
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Jip luckly it was just my workshop at home but its up your advice worked like a charm
And as promised
I installed it on another pc and it also works I5 8gm ram and win 10 pro 64bit (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170922/7155d5c3881fa91cb4fc3f8a1002615c.jpg)
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Hi,
glad you've got the interference problem sorted...it will probably recur but using fairly simple principles solves most issues.
I am intrigued that your Win10 machine can run what appears to be a parallel port and yet a 64 bit OS cannot support a parallel port, even
in deepest darkest Affwicka. As an experiment would you confirm the motion plugin Mach is running.
Ordinarily when Mach is fired up the first screen asks you to select a motion control plugin from those that are installed. Normally you select one
and that selection would be repeated at each startup, tedious and so you can hide the screen. You can view it again by Function Cfg's/Reset Device Sel...
and then restart Mach. Can you tell me which plugin is currently selected as your motion control plugin. While a parallel port plugin might be listed
I don't think it will work. Note any other plugins listed, one I suspect will relate to your motion control card which I believe must be the PCI card.
Maybe if you have access to the card you could take a pic or indentify the main ICs on the board, I would suspect one to be an FPGA or DSP or maybe
an industrial micro that would not be on a PCI to parallel card.
You might also try to run DriverTest.exe from the Mach3 folder, it tests the parallel port. I suspect it will fail as no parallel port can be installed on a 64 bit OS
machine.
As I say I'm intrigued, you may have seen the hundreds if not thousands of posts by people who are disgusted that Machs PP cannot be run under a 64 bit OS
and seem to imagine that Artsoft or maybe MS is involved in some conspiracy to prevent it.
Craig
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This whole LPT port on 64 bit OS saga is interesting. Apparently (answers.microsoft.com) people HAVE been running parallel port printers on W10, at least until one of the latest updates. I quote:
> If I now open ‘Device Manager’, ‘Ports’, ‘Printer Port (LPT1)’ and change practically any of the settings then close Device Manager the printer works normally and continues to do so until I shut down and re-start my computer.
Now, that makes the stock LPT driver for a printer work. I very strongly doubt you stand a snowflake's chance in hell of getting Art's original psuedo-PP driver to work under W10 though. His driver actually hacked the entire WXP OS! W10 will not let you do that - cannot let you in fact.
Yeah, annoying stuff, but that port hardware was really antique many years ago.
Update:
support.lenovo.com also lists a driver for the Sunix PCI to LPT card. Interesting ...
The MS hardware Dev Centre has a whole section on how to write device drivers for parallel port devices. Seems they got a lot of 'feedback' from owners of all sorts of PP stuff. But even so that won't allow Art's driver to run (imho).
Cheers
Roger
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Hi Roger,
sure Windows 10 can run a parallel port to drive a printer, that's easy, what Windows 10 doesn't allow is the code necessary to produce accurate pulse
streams required by a control system. The DB25 socket is just a convenient way to simultaneously signal a bunch of devices, generating all those signals
in the first place is the trick.
Craig
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Hi Roger,
that's what intrigues me about Mavericks system, he posted a listing for his board, a parallel port BOB but hes plugging into a Windows 10
machine. I'm convinced that the PCI card he has installed is rather more than a PCI to DB25 card but I'd luv to find out!
Craig
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Hi Craig
Try to find A Plug-In Writers bible by Art Fenerty, somewhere on the Artsoft web site. In it Art explains what he did to WXP to make it into a poor man's RealTime machine. Basically, he created a so-called 'device driver' which ran at a higher interrupt priority than Windows XP. Quite a large bit of spectacular code in fact. A sort-of super-virus or Trajan Horse.
But the chances of W10 ever loading something like that which could interfere almost at the BIOS level are strictly zero. Run printers and EPROM programmers - yes, but that's just the hardware port driver, not a RealTime subsystem.
Yeah - what is the board Maverick is using?
Cheers
Roger
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Hi Roger,
I read a book by Sean Lemming, a real Windows guru and interrupts, in something like 15 levels of priority, are normal in Windows for all manner
of inter thread communication. The problem is that you can't stop Windows from using interrupts, it would crash immediately yet you need to run pretty high
priority interrupts to drive your timer for Mach.
How Art got it to work is a marvel still. I'm bloody glad he put his talent into that rather than hacking nuclear missiles, I mean hacking missiles would be easy for him!
Craig
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Thats what its aking after device setup
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170922/873e470d4eb0218c7c3738a8f02fd814.jpg)
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Just a note here...
No CNC machine can be operated from the Parallel Port of a PC operating Win10 64 bit running Mach3. :'(
A CNC machine can, however, be operated using the S3 board (motion controller) and the Ethernet connection to a Win10 64 bit PC. ;)
Tweakie.
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Ah - MachforWin64 - nothing to do with an LPT plug-in. It's actually a competitor to the ESS.
Cheers
ROger
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Hi,
kool, mystery solved. Maverick you may want to do a bit of research and find a manual for your controller, just what its capable of and how you
set it up are going to be critical to you getting the best from your machine.
Craig
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Mate i never had it on machforwin64 thats how it can up originally on the first no device there was a pci-port only half of my msg was sent earlier ... for some reason when i went to devive set this is what came on what is strange is my mill is still running when i clesed this window somewhere over the weekend ill strip the pci card out take pics and reload windows 10 pro 64bit my hdd is fd up do im replacing it with a ssd then ill document the whole prosess ... if that will please the court..ill take screen shots as i go and if it was a fluke so be it if it wasnt ill figure it out and hopefully be able to help some blokes out
Cheers
MAV
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And i have a manual for the controller
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Hi Maverick,
that's interesting, I wonder if the plugin flashes the controller with some sort of firmware but can thereafter run in absence of the plugin.
Glad that you've got the info tho...the chances are your going to need it over the coming months. CNC is not plug and play as a rule and the better
your info/knowledge the better chance you have of advancing your hobby and very personally satisfying it is too.
Craig
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Hi,
I have a little mSATA SSD in my Atom platform that runs my mill, I luv it, fast, tiny and reliable. Just to think only 5 years ago would have been to
pricey for home use now cheap as chips.
Craig
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somewhere over the weekend ill strip the pci card out take pics and reload windows 10 pro 64bit my hdd is fd up do im replacing it with a ssd then ill document the whole prosess ... if that will please the court..ill take screen shots as i go and if it was a fluke so be it if it wasnt ill figure it out and hopefully be able to help some blokes out
Hi Mav,
I would certainly be interested in seeing the results.
Tweakie.