Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Mike VT on November 03, 2016, 07:55:34 PM
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So just learned that if you are in the MDI screen and press the hard cycle/start button (shouldn't be doing that but I did), Mach executes the current program on the main screen. Crashed a 3/4 endmill 1 inch deep into the vice at G0 speed. Broke endmill, destroyed hard jay on chuck and broke retaining stud on cat 40 tool holder). Glad I closed the doors before I did that.
Is there a way to disable the cycle start button when on the MDI screen. I get that I should not have done that BUT.......
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A little update. I tested this on my kneemill that doesn't have a hard switch for cycle start. But the short cut key is Crtl+R on the keyboard. This will not activate the program if on the MDI screen. Have no clue what happens if an input on a parrellel port is used. My setup is CSLABS ethernet contol box.
Honestly, I have no idea how the founders and the aftermarket folks haven't actually sent an endmill through someone's skull. The bugs are beyond insane.
Have a recently retrofitted VFI that is now forsale cheap. Located in Virginia-US. It works great but full of bugs. Was going to gut the contol package that I just put in and try out linuxCnc. In the end, I make money on this machine and I'm trying to teach a noob how to do some machining. This ain't working at all. A new haas is a lot cheaper than dead employee.
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Don't you just love Mach3 :)
As it happens I do, but yes there are very few safety constraints in there - the CS-labs box was not around when Mach was written either :)
The hardest part is adding the logic to control human input - mach will do what you tell it, but if you tell it to run the code when not expecting it to, it will usually run the code as you found - this is not really a flaw i think, Mach is pretty much just a controller - you have to add the bells and whistles as i have been doing ;)
How do you select the MDI screen, maybe there is a way in there, my screenset does not have it - the MDI is just a line on the main screen activated by pressing enter or clicking in it. Stopping the code running should be possible, its just a matter of where to apply the block and what triggers it.
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So just learned that if you are in the MDI screen and press the hard cycle/start button (shouldn't be doing that but I did), Mach executes the current program on the main screen.
Out of the box - Mach won't run a program from the MDI screen. Someone has customized it to respond to hard buttons and done it without due care.
I've lost track of the crappy code people have added to Mach without really knowing what they're doing and then blamed Mach for not doing what they want.
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So just learned that if you are in the MDI screen and press the hard cycle/start button (shouldn't be doing that but I did), Mach executes the current program on the main screen.
Out of the box - Mach won't run a program from the MDI screen. Someone has customized it to respond to hard buttons and done it without due care.
I've lost track of the crappy code people have added to Mach without really knowing what they're doing and then blamed Mach for not doing what they want.
No truer words have ever been spoken Ian.
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No truer words have ever been spoken Ian.
Hey stranger - where you been? ;D
Cheers Brett
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No truer words have ever been spoken Ian.
Hey stranger - where you been? ;D
Cheers Brett
Hey Ian, I am usually here. I just don't get much time to participate.
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To be clear, Stirling called it right is my guess (as he corrected me when no one else had a clue about programing with bits and integers). But I want to be clear and feel I did what I was supposed to do. I am using the CSLabs plugin with mach 3 version 3.043.66 which is not the version you are pointed to when buying from scratch.
Heres a link to what I did. Basically mapped an input to the oem trigger function for cycle/start.
I just want to be sure that the "crappy code people have added" is not on me. If so, I'll stand corrected (OCS folks may truely understand that one) and I'll be a champion.
Heres the link to what I did.
http://www.cs-lab.eu/en/artykul-111-STARTSTOPPAUSE_buttons_configuration_on_an_operator_panel.html
I didn't know that I had further control of the oem trigger. If I did, shame on me. If not, shame on........
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Hi Mike,
I don’t think there is any argument that by fitting the external Start/Stop button you did exactly what you thought was right - however, as you have discovered, this action does have it’s consequences.
“Crashed a 3/4 endmill 1 inch deep into the vice at G0 speed. Broke endmill, destroyed hard jay on chuck and broke retaining stud on cat 40 tool holder)”
Since you have discovered this issue exists (on your particular set-up) you should now be looking at this in a positive way and investigating the introduction of an interlock so that it cannot happen again in the future.
If responsibility is to be apportioned it lies with you and you alone.
Tweakie.
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Mike
I think I may know where you went wrong.
I think you've assumed that because Alt-R does nothing on the MDI screen then somehow cycle start can't happen on the MDI screen. That's not the case however.
You hit Alt-R on the Program Run screen and sure enough it does a cycle start. The reason it does that is two-fold. One: there's a button on that screen that has its hot-key code set to Alt-R and two: that button's function is set to cycle start.
On the MDI screen, there simply isn't such a button. That's the only reason ALt-R does nothing. The MDI screen is just a screen - it has no special merit. (Check out the Toolpath screen - you can't jog on it. Why? simply because there's no Jog Control - that's all - a pendant would still allow jogging though)
An OEM trigger is just an input that can be configured to automatically execute an OEM code when it goes active. If that simplistic behavior suits your particular requirements then all well and good. However if your requirements have caveats then triggers are of no use. You have to resort to the dark art of the macropump or brains.
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I greatly appreciate the mod's response. You guys live in a very dangerous world. If I had to bet where this is going, I'd put up a bunch.
"If responsibility is to be apportioned it lies with you and you alone."
That offends me because I really thought I was dong this right based on all available documentation. As I ponder the phrase, you are exactly right. Because I took control of this machine, it's liabilities lie with me. Only a jury can decide if I lie alone. Hopefully, this never comes to pass.
I appreciate whats trying to be done here. Hope Mach 4 developers with the high price point goal understand what's at stake. Charge all you want, kill a few folks across multiple countries. Goood luck.
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Only a jury can decide if I lie alone.
Thats relatively easy to see - the system was modified, any injury or damage will be down to the modifier unless it can be proved that the injury/damage has absolutely no connection to the mods - in this case the modifier would lose as steps were not taken for interlocks etc.
This is one of the reasons it is so hard to make and sell machines in a one-off basis, it's a minefield of lawsuits.
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Hope Mach 4 developers with the high price point goal understand what's at stake. Charge all you want, kill a few folks across multiple countries. Goood luck.
As a comment this appears to be totally irrelevant to this thread or perhaps I am missing something.
Tweakie.
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Guys, I apologize for my take on this. Here's the deal, if an endmill had killed me, it would mean nothing to me (how could it after the fact). If an endmill had hit me in the shoulder and caused serious damage, as soon as I was well enough, I'd be right back at the machine playing with it again. Introduce an employee, its just very different and has completely changed my mindset on what it is I am trying to do here. Love Mach and all it is about. Just not right for me at this point. Didn't mean to bring up legalities and was wrong for doing so. But, those with opinions on how legal issues work out should understand that for every lawyer that argues one way, another 50 can be bought to argue it another way. Who wins the heart of the court is always 50/50. Nothing is ever black and white. I would never sell this machine as a functioning unit. I consider the matter closed and appreciate all the help I got from you guys.
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Couple of things to consider...
You mentioned using version 066, the popular recommended version is 062 as a few bugs were introduced in 066 relative to a mill application (from memory I believe 066 has some lathe functionality or bug fixes). The problem with 066 is I believe motion controller related. I don't believe I've ever seen a changelog listing 066 bugfixes and updates, and any changelog stops many versions before. There is also a version 067 too which appears (I guess, no official knowledge) to have been commissioned by CandCNC incorporating elements for their plasma motion controllers https://www.candcnc.com/downloads/
Consider the following:
You bought mach3 from NFS / artsoft.
It has always been developed with numerous bug fixes. I'm not sure which version is considered a lockdown version as each deals with potential serious bugs (serious by the nature that the software controls a machine automatically (sort of)) and like you experianced there may be potential high energy debris (speed x mass) to cause harm.
You have a motion controller, which requires a plugin developed by another company who have interpreted mach3 plugin coding requirements (good luck with finding volumes of plugin manuals listing all plugin functions in detail along with any subsequent amendments as bug fix versions progress)
Then you potentially have a screenset which mayor may not have been edited by persons unknown who knew nothing of your hardware of software at the time of implemention (ie it was developed on version 043 and your installed 066, but there was no documentation identifing which is the screensets development version or it has a means to loch the screenset to a particular version.
Then you have (I think from reading the post) an external control keyboard, developed and built by persons unknown, relying on the motion controller plugin to correctly send signals to mach3.
Then you have to consider that artsoft / newfangled solutions don't sell any hardware. So persons unknown have physically built your machine and wired it following instruction manuals from all the various parts manufacturers, software providers using manuals which may not reflect or been tested on the current installed version of either windows, any supporting service packs and libraries (prerequisites, such as c++, VB, .NET framework etc), mach3, motion controller plugin, along with of course any other plugins installed (whether enabled or not as mach3 can assign resources to unenabled but installed plugins).
Then you have to consider such disclaimers that I'm sure all the various component and software suppliers will make, such as that within the mach3 installation manual (page 1-1)
Before You Begin....
Any machine tool is potentially dangerous. Computer controlled machines are potentially more dan-
gerous than manual ones because, for example, a computer is quite prepared to rotate an 8" unbalanced
cast iron four-jaw chuck at 3000 rpm, to plunge a panel-fielding router cutter deep into a piece of oak,
or to mill away the clamps holding your work to the table.
This manual tries to give you guidance on safety precautions and techniques, but because we do not
know the details of your machine or local conditions we can accept no responsibility for the perfor-
mance of any machine or any damage or injury caused by its use. It is your responsibility to ensure
that you understand the implications of what you design and build and to comply with any legislation
and codes of practice applicable to your country or state.
If you are in any doubt, be sure to seek guidance from a professionally qualified expert rather
than risk injury to yourself or to others.
Followed by the following extract from the next page of the manual
Every effort has been made to make this manual as complete and as accurate as possible, but no war-
ranty or fitness is implied. The information provided is on an “as is” basis. The authors and publisher
shall have neither liability nor responsibility to any person or entity with respect to any loss or dam-
ages arising from the information contained in this manual. Use of the manual is covered by the license
conditions to which you must agree when installing Mach3 software.
Then there is consideration of your own competency, testing and training, and appropriate selection and use of personal protective equipment or the use of machine guards and interlocks (given the speed of the tool that broke and it's mass, why did you (or the machine assembler and manufacturer) deem it unnecessary for a fixed guard or shield not to be installed in front of the operator position?
Court decisions are not 50/50 (from my experience), it can come down to your legal representation and their experience, and the expert witnesses and professors you call, given the number of potential defendants given I presume youve not bought an assembled turn key machine, and undertaken their operator training programme chances of success against NFS would be about 1% (or much lower), and if it was a fully assembled turn key machine, your port of call for litigation would be the turnkey supplier who may or may not sue up the tree after loosing their own initial case to you.
... Only the lawyers get rich out of this process. ...
Install an operator guard of appropriate energy absorption rating if you are unable to remove the risk or correct the coding.
If you are manufacturing a machine for release (which upon rereading you may be), although not practical maybe, have you spoken with supplier s regarding mach3 version compatibility? Have you documented this in your literature, do you offer training and operator certification (it may not be practical or ever taken up by a purchaser (cost prohibitive to them), but it protects your liability later). You should offer comprehensive manuals which also inform windows version compatibility and that things such as automatic updates should be turned off as operation cannot be guaranteed should additional software be installed or updated (if you buy a dedicated cnc lathe or mill (Haas etc), there is no opertunity to install other stuff like running a cnc app on a windows PC or laptop. Operator training should be offered same as site installation anywhere in the world your customer is based, now this does not have to be at a low cost, but an appropriate cost.... Ie. + Include travel and accommodation costs if the customer wants site training, or give them the opportunity to come to you at their own cost but still provide for a structured 5 or whatever day tailored training courses covering installation maintenance and operation, plus refresher training, plus advanced operator / trainer training, any of them they may or may not choose (they may prove cost prohibitive to them, but ensure your rates for local training can be considered reasonable). If the customer chooses not to pay for this service it provides evidence in your favour should an accident occur in the future. Ie accident occurs, was the operator trained by you, were they competent... Maybe you trained the owner, but now someone else was using the machine, were they trained by you, or were they trained by the owner, did the owner possess proficiency in using the machine for long enough such that they could train others, were they certified to train others, was the machine and guards maintained, were they in place, was the machine installed in an appropriate location with adequate clearances such that the energy of any projectile would have diminished before leaving the work zone , if not add guards etc etc.
Sorry for the long post.... Just a few ways to look at things from different perspectives.
As a mach3 user it would be very difficult to sue and win against NFS (or any other component manufacturer) because of the sheer number of intercontinental components and variables, likewise as a manufacturer selling complete systems you can protect yourself well even with using many interconnecting components by how you offer the turnkey project (if the customer never takes up the offers or training and installation, provided you offer it at what is considered a reasonable cost and also can demonstrate a structured (documented) training system later even though no customer has ever taken it up)... All about training, certification, records and documentation... likewise All suppliers should offer this to system integrators .... Even if it is never taken up... It was offered...as can be demonstrated as such. Eg... http://www.haascnc.com/training.asp#gsc.tab=0