Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Acrodoc on October 24, 2016, 10:14:29 PM
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Loader for CNC Lathe. Should I go Mach 3 or 4. Servo or Stepper. What for the PC and OS. I need about 30 to 40 I/O. It has to be robust to run 12 hours a day. Change the part every 2 minutes or less and run in a big shop 50 plus CNCs in shop temps from 40 to 115 degrees. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Chris
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30 to 40 I/O would probably be the domain of a dedicated PLC, I am not sure of any PC stuff with that much I/O capacity.
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I am not sure of any PC stuff with that much I/O capacity.
You sure Dave? (hint, you use one :D )
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Hiya Hood, Is it possible to expand the CSMIO to that many inputs?
If so then i can heartily recommend the CS_Labs range of controllers to the OP, great units. :)
Edit...
Just looked, max capacity is 192 ins and 96 outs so yes go for a CS_Labs unit :)
That will also offer 6 channels of motion as well.
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I've been looking at ESS and the DMM AC servos from CNC4PC. I'm not clear on axis Homing. Can someone please clear this up Hood. Can I use the z pulse output on the sero drive and send it to the ESS for homing along with a machine mounted home switch. I don't need as much I/O as originally thought. The ESS and DMM servos sounds really good bang for the buck. I have been looking at the HiCON but at over $ 1200 to do the same job as the ESS for half the price. Thoughts please.
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AFAIK ESS doesn't support index homing itself. What you would normally do is move the servo until the home switch is triggered, slowly back off until it releases, then activate the servo drives internal homing and wait until the drive signals it's homed.
How much variety will there be in the parts?
My first thought would of been a PLC, however you may want to look at a KFlop?
A KFlop would allow you a lot more flexibility in terms of programming (think HiCON/Galil), and gives you options to run standalone (you can program into the KFlop's flash memory what you want it to do and have it run automatically when powered on), or with a custom screen to control what you want done (could be industrial touch screen with buttons so operators are limited to what can be controlled, or even physical buttons).
However, without more details about what you're wanting to do, it's hard to give advise.
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I hear ya. They already have a gantry loader on a Mori lathe. It programs with standard G and M codes. I suspect we will build 3 or more of them for the 30 identical lathes he has. Ideally it, they will be portable so move in front and plug in. Teach it the new program and go. I was leaning towards the HiCON for several reasons, good documentation and fast response to technical questions. They have a good line of AC Servos as well. Thanks for your input and I'll keep posting.
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There was talk a long time ago about the ESS doing Index homing. I haven't updated my plugin for years so not sure if it has been done or not. I don't require it on the lathe I have the ESS on as my servo drives do the index homing internally.
ESS is 5v I/O not sure about the Hicon or for that matter the kFlop, but the CSMIO is 24v.
Industry standard in machine tools is 24v (for good reason) so if going with a controller that is 5v I/O then you may have to make up boards to convert 24v to 5v and vice versa.
Now ESS versus other controllers. The ESS ideally needs breakout boards so factor that into your costs. Also spindle control, if needed, would have to be added, again adding to costs.
As said not sure about the Hicon but the CSMIO has all that on board including analogue I/O for spindle control or feed override pots etc.
So what I would say is look at what you need then add up the costs of all the additional things you would need if going ESS or similar route then compare it to controllers such as CSMIO/Hicon etc, you may find the CSMIO/Hicon are not so expensive after all.
Hood
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A basic KFlop is a mix of 3.3V and 5V, but the various add-on boards can give 24V IO.
I like this video for demonstrating just what the KFlop is capable of doing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSONYPXe3bE
You could control that via Mach just by providing basic 6 axis g-code, as all the kinematic calcs are handled by the KFlop.
Dynomotion have also fairly recently added 5-axes gimbal support, where all you need to do is set the radiuses, and the KFlop can handle all the kinematics and compensate for tool offsets - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7KF9tNmQFA (skip to about 2:40 to see the simulation) or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSnjGD2edGE shows a real machine.
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OK Hood I think you have me convinced on the CSMIO. For the $699 US for the 6 axis controller and it comes with plenty of I/O and the terminal connection block with ribbon cable for a clean install. I think it's definitely worth it. I may still want to use the PoKeys for the jog box instead of purchasing the extra unit from CS- Labs. Now the Servos. Thanks again for all your input and I may call upon it again.
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Ok, well a couple of things as I see it is a lathe.
First is threading is not perfect. It does and excellent job of the actual thread and the axis follows the spindle exceptionally well, the spindle can slow, speed up, stop, even go backwards and the axis will track fine. Where the problem is, the pullout at the end of the thread on each pass is slow, it will cut a groove at the end of your thread, so if that is not acceptable then it is probably best to look elsewhere.
Another thing is if you want threading you will need to get the Enc module, if you have that it also allows rigid tapping as a bonus :D
Now the MPG unit, it is definitely something I would get, just the unit, the hand held pendant is not required if you are wanting to put the MPG itself on your panel or you have your own hand held pendant. The reason I say it is something I would get is because the motion is more like Industrial CNC motion as opposed to the way Mach does it natively. For example with Mach you have a few different modes but the two most usable are constant and multi step. In constant the motion will be smooth but the distance is not accurate, what I mean is 1 click will not be exactly 0.01 or 0.1 or whatever, it will just basically be a random value depending on the speed.
In Multistep mode the distance will be exact but the motion is jerky.
With the CSMIO the motion is smooth and accurate in all step sizes.
As for using the PoKeys, I am not sure how it does the motion for MPG but I am fairly confident it will be as Mach does it, reason being it does not have control of the actual axes.
Right one last thing, if you do decide CSMIO then I would recommend that you get the IP-A as it has a few advantages over the IP-S. But if going that route then you will need drives/amps that can accept analogue command (+/-10v) where if going with the IP-S then you will need drives that can accept Step/Dir.
Hood
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I agree that for the 100 bucks for the MPG unit is worth it. Remember I am not doing the lathe itself. My customer has 30 Hyundia lathes with the Siemens controller we are building part loaders for. I think the final design will be just 3 axis. X parallel to the lathe X and z parallel to the lathe z axis. The X will enter the lathe to load, unload or rotate the part 180 degrees with a servo a axis for the gripper. On my handheld I will have a Start and Hold button, Feed and Rapid Overide, MPG wheel with axis select and Icrement. One more item I will have is a page selector switch for my Mach3 pages Run Program, Manual Jog and Teach Page. I set it up so you can only run or MDI on the run page using Input 1 Safety. I also made a custom MDI on the Run Program screen that opens the MDITeach file and you type in the command. Then you push the Input Button and it loads the MDITeach file. Then it requires 2 Cycle Starts. I did not like how as soon as you hit the enter key It executed the command. I also did not like how hitting the start button on any Mach3 screen would start the loaded program. Any time you leave the Run Program screen and then go back it does a Stop then Rewind of the loaded Program. I'm trying to make it as safe and Fanuc like as I can.
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I have 2 YouTube Videos 1 of my teach screen and 1 of my controller as of a few days ago. See links
https://youtu.be/8ZV0_QnuO6Q
https://youtu.be/OOBMNlk5QQU
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Ah yes sorry, loads spinning around in my head at the moment and not reading properly.
Yes that is the great thing about Mach, you can configure most things to the way you want.
Screens look like they are working very well :)
Hood