Machsupport Forum

Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: AFrank on August 07, 2016, 10:25:14 PM

Title: Mori Seiki retrofit
Post by: AFrank on August 07, 2016, 10:25:14 PM
Ive tried every cnc forum that I know and still cant get any feedback. Figured ide try here.

I first want to say that I have near 0 understanding of electronics and cnc systems. I have some minor background knowledge of cnc but not enough to do my own retrofit.

Ive got a 1977 Mori Seiki SL-BB (its essentially an SL-1) that im trying to retro a pc based control to. I bought the machine stupid cheap and the day I got it fully installed, it blew out the control >:(
Ive already removed the old control. Everything is gone except for the servos and encoders. The original spindle motor and drive have been removed. I got an AC Dayton 5hp motor to use for the spindle. Will buy a VFD to run it. I would like someone to tell me what I should use for retrofit hardware. I want to keep the closed look system and use my original encoders (including the spindle encoder). I would like to use an Ethernet motion controller (I hear they are faster and better suited for high precision/industrial environments)
what hardware I currently have:
-both axes are Yaskawa UGCMEM-04DB1SF DC servos. 70v .4-2.6kW. Tacho-generator with pulse encoders.
-servo encoders 500 pulse per rev. A, B & Z channels.
-spindle encoder PC-1024Z-WFT, 1024 pulse per rev. A and B phases. 1 pulse/rev= A phase.
I will attach pics of data plates and the machine itself
Title: Re: Mori Seiki retrofit
Post by: AFrank on August 07, 2016, 10:30:02 PM
77 mori sl-bb
Title: Re: Mori Seiki retrofit
Post by: Hood on August 08, 2016, 05:03:57 AM
Looks like the encoders are 12v so likely you would need to either replace them or convert to 5 via an opto or something. Also they are single ended so ideally will need converting to differential but that will depend on the controller hardware you use.

Not sure if you still have the servo drives/amps but if you do then I will presume they take an analogue signal of +/- 10v, if so then you have a few choices of ethernet controller.

I use the CSMIO/IP-A on my Chiron FZ12S and love it, for a lathe however there is a drawback with Mach3 in that the threading, although tracking exceptionally well, will pause at the end of each pass and cut an annular groove. If this is not an issue then I would recommend it.
You would need the main CSMIO/IP-A and also the Enc module. I would also recommend getting the MPG module  so you can have an MPG etc on your panel (no need for the hand held pendant itself unless you want to).
 I think CS-Labs may also do a converter board which may work for your encoder,  but you would have to check with them

If you do not have the drives then it may actually be better to get AC Servo drives/motors, if you do go that route then I would still recommend you get ones capable of analogue command and agai, regarding controller,  my personal choice would be  the CSMIO/IP-A.

If wanting to keep the DC motors then you may not be able to use a controller that is closed back to Mach, depends whether you get analogue command ones or step/dir ones. If analogue then the controllers  mentioned above will do, if Step/Dir then the  Hicon from Vital system may close the loop but I am not 100% certain so you would have to check. The drives themselves will close the loop to the motors though.

Title: Re: Mori Seiki retrofit
Post by: garyhlucas on August 08, 2016, 09:13:19 AM
I suspect that you are not getting feedback because people are shocked that you think you can pull off this project. The price you got it for reflects the difficulty of the task. I have an extensive experience with power and control wiring, plc programming, and I design machinery for a living. I also built my own home CNC machine using Mach 3. I would hesitate to take on this project. It is likely to cost a lot more than you expect and take a very long time. Unless you do a really fantastic job it won't have much value either as it will have no support from anyone.
Title: Re: Mori Seiki retrofit
Post by: AFrank on August 08, 2016, 09:22:34 AM
I had to dump the original servo amps. I just couldn't figure out how they communicated with the control.
I am looking at this drive:
There are plenty of these available on ebay and they take single ended signals but..... its a leadshine. Has anyone used these?
I figure the spindle encoder is single ended as well? where is the index pulse?
Are there motion controllers out there that take spindle encoder feedback, or will most require an expansion board?
I was originally looking at CS-Labs hardware, but I just cant afford it :(
The unfortunate truth is that im a broke ass college student that can hardly keep enough money in my wallet for a pack of cigarettes.
This retro doesn't have to be with all the best quality hardware. I just need it making chips for me.

I know that I probably sound crazy for considering a job like this. Ive done crazier things before. Money is tight and I just cant afford good machinery. Gotta make due with whats available. I have a buddy that is a wiz with electronics and I know that I will need his help with this project to get it air born but for right now, I need to get a better understanding of the equipment.
Title: Re: Mori Seiki retrofit
Post by: garyhlucas on August 08, 2016, 10:23:09 AM
See I thought maybe you were a retired guy with a boatload of time on his hands.  So now you are saying that the odds of success are even lower! I will tell you that my homebuilt machine with getting lots of parts really cheap, table for $99, 4 precision ballscrew slides for $1200, control enclosures for $25 each, power supply transformers $20 each, PLC for free, Aluminum extrusion framing for free, etc. and I still have spent nearly $10K!  Remember you are trying to rebuild a machine that would cost about $100K today.  All the parts are priced for the $100K machine, not for what you paid.

Not that I ever make these kinds of mistakes. I have a 1986 boat I paid $6K for, that would today sell for $85K, and yes every part is priced for the $85K boat not the $6K one.  The boat hasn't been in the water in seven years, and I just spent money building a cradle so I can bring it home in the hopes I can find the time to put it back together.

It is unfortunate how difficult it is to learn from the experience of others.  I watch people doing things that have never worked in the past and as they do exactly the same thing they tell me how it is different.  The only thing different is their lack of experience to recognize they are doing the same thing again.
Title: Re: Mori Seiki retrofit
Post by: AFrank on August 08, 2016, 11:49:23 AM
With all due respect, I fail to see how I am "building a machine". The machine is already there. I just need to give it a cheap new brain to make chips until I can afford to buy a new machine or do a more professional retro.
Title: Re: Mori Seiki retrofit
Post by: Hood on August 08, 2016, 01:32:24 PM
Ok well if it is a cheapo then probably get the leadshines or similar hobby grade drives and use the parallel port, you would also need some form of breakout and a spindle controller, CNC4PC do cheap.
The encoders would still need sorted as 12v is no use. Also the turret would be an issue due to lack of I/O etc so maybe you would just have to rig up some sort of manual tool change..
Wouldn't be a very good retrofit and you will likely soon hit its limitations but it would work.

Title: Re: Mori Seiki retrofit
Post by: Davek0974 on August 08, 2016, 02:42:12 PM
If you have already reached a limit by not having cash for a CS-Labs controller, then i can see you are going to have big problems re-automating what appears to be a beast of a machine ;)

I am currently £3000+ into a conversion on a simple Bridgeport Milling machine, was i warned not to do it - Yes, was i told it was costly - yes, was i told to cost it all up then double it - yes, the only advice I can offer you is that it WILL cost a lot of cash, no two ways round it.

Why did i do it? My main reason was to learn more about CNC, plus i enjoy the build process.

Title: Re: Mori Seiki retrofit
Post by: garyhlucas on August 08, 2016, 11:11:37 PM
To do what you are trying to do you will need to learn everything the original builder needed to know to make it work the first time.  Things like torque and HP requirements, sequence of operations, all kinds of stuff. So in that sense you are 'building a machine'.  If you never saw it run with the old control there may also be mechanical issues you don't know about like spindle bearings, turret rotation, X and Z ways, lubrication etc.  It would be pretty disheartening to get a new control on the machine only to find out you need an expensive spindle rebuild! 

Seriously, if you want to make chips there are lots of cheaper, faster ways with a much higher likelyhood of success.  Patience is a virtue in this regard.  I just picked up an absolutely like new 1990 CNC bed mill with a 4th axis and 23 cat40 tool holders for $6500.  No way you could replace the controls and spindle motor and drive on a machine like this for $6500.  We are gonna use it for a vertical lathe too.  We have a QC tool post holder mounted to the table, and a holder for Cat 40 tooling so we can use drills, boring bars and such as if it is a gang tooled lathe.