Machsupport Forum
Mach Discussion => General Mach Discussion => Topic started by: Chaosengineering on July 01, 2016, 05:37:57 PM
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I am a machine tool service engineer for a living, working on mainly FANUC controlled machines from 2 to 9 axis.
However at home I hoard machine tools from the turn of the century up to the 90's, which I use when commitments permit to build a scale model traction engine.
I'm at the stage now where I have a lot of parts to turn with radius's, tapers, fillets etc. I had begun to fit a hydraulic type copy attachment to my manual Colchester to produce these, when this happened...
I've been very lucky to aquire an absolutely mint 2 axis CNC lathe built by Brazian firm ROMI circa 1995. The cast iron itself is immaculate, however it is fitted with a Bridgeport EZ PATH control which has failed. Parts for the control are scarce and expensive ex USA.
A friend in Wales has been running a small stepper driven lathe with Mach 3 for years and swears by it, so I'm intrigued.
Can I source a solution to fit mach3 to my machine.
It has SEM 140v dc brushed motors
Electronic pulsed hand wheels.
Heidenhain rotary encoder for spindle speed feedback.
Could I integrate something that will drive these motors?
Could I use existing drive cards?
I would be great full for any help, advice or direction to research please.
EZ TRAK WAS THE MORE COMMON CONTROL VARIATION FITTED TO MANY TURRET MILLS. THE LATHES SEEM TO BE LESS COMMON. MY VERSION DOES NOT HAVE SPINDLE CONTROL.
THANKS.
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I will assume that the drives/amps need a +/- 10v analogue signal, so your options are reduced to a few different controllers if you wish to keep them (I would recommend you do)
The options are
CSMIO/IP-A
DSPMC
Kflop with Kanalog
Galil
I only have experience with one of the above controllers, the CSMIO/IP-A but I love it. For a lathe however there is a drawback, there is a delay in the pullout at the end of threading which cuts an annular groove. If that is not a problem to any parts you will thread then I would say it would be a good choice.
I know the guy that did the Galil plugin for Mach eventually found a way round this issue but how I have no idea.
Not sure if the DSPMC and Kflop also suffer with the problem or not but it is only present when using full encoder for threading rather than the more common single pulse per rev.
Here is a vid showing the small lathe I had which was fitted with the CSMIO/IP-S (Step/Dir rather than analogue) I am just demonstarting the threading by rotaing the chuck by hand to show how it follows extremely well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-KlHFYxzkM
Rigid tapping is also possible with the CSMIO/IP-A and S controllers, never did it on the lathe but here is a vid of the Chiron I have which uses the CSMIO/IP-A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNL2XdsJz2E
To do rigid tapping and lathe threading with the CSMIO you also require the Enc Module and if using a handwheel you need the MPG module. With the MPG module and the CSMIO the handwheel will be like you have on machines like Fanuc, with Mach and most other controllers the handwheel is quite a bit different and not as nice in my opinion.
Now your encoders may or may not be an issue, it depends on their output, if the are the uAmp or 1vpp type then they will be no use with the CSMIO and would need replaced, likewise your handwheel. If they are 5v square wave then they will be fine.
Hood
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Many thanks for your reply. There's plenty there for me to go away and research and check out on my existing hardware. I'll report back.
Cheers.
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Hiya Chaos, we may know each other already, are you on the Traction-Talk forum? I did things the other way round - I built two and a half traction engines (3" Little Samson, 6" Little Samson and a lot of a 6" Burrell GMT) on the manual equipment then started to learn and build CNC :)
I am now converting my Bridgeport mill to cnc with the CSMIO/IP-A and MPG module.
Do your motors have encoders or resolvers on them? We have a machine at work that has 140v SEM motors but has resolvers which i don't think work with any modern controllers.
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Hi Dave,
Yes I bought your 5DP INVOLUTE GEAR CUTTERS!
I believe they are optical encoders, similar to what's used on my XYZ Protrak Miller. But without looking for my self, it's an assumption. They have the following connections.
+5v supply
XA+
XA-
XB+
XB-
XI+
XI-
Both motor encoders are 1000 PPR. Motors are 9v = 3000.
X MOTOR =14 LB/IN 3.9A
Z MOTOR =26 LB/IN 8.6A
How far along are you? I would really appreciate some guidance. Are you using a modern PC or something with LPT port?
Hand wheels are 600PPR and spindle encoder is 1250PPR
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Those encoders should be fine :)
Dave is using the CSMIO/IP-A controller, it connects to the computer via Ethernet.
Hood
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Ah, gear cutting, those were the days :)
I'm at the stage where i am fitting the motors to the machine - lots of fiddly machining and fitting up.
I already have a servo and drive connected up to the CSMIO on the bench and also got Mach3 running it nicely with my hand pendant MPG etc, I have also sketched up a wiring diagram for the safety circuits etc.
I am also working to fit my 24k spindle on to the mill as an aux spindle so i can do engraving etc, I currently have a mini-mill i built with it on but space is tight and if one machine can do both tasks then its a no-brainer.
I get my PC's from eBay, usually around £15 each for a Dell Optiplex etc, always have at least one on the shelf as a spare.
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Dave,
Would it be ok to give you a ring one evening? I think I still have your number on an invoice or similar. I probably have some very silly questions to ask, residing the Mach side of things, since I've no prior experience.
Likewise if you get stuck on your machine wiring give a shout.
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I know I had issues with my KFlop being slow on pull out when running Mach 3, however I rarely cut threads on my CNC lathe, so never really looked into it. The problem I had was Mach used the feed per rev value when it switched back to mm per min, instead of using the set G1/G0 feedrate value, until it reached the end of the pul lout when the correct federate got applied.
I do know however there are a couple guys on the Dynomotion Yahoo group running Mach3 still, and they've never mentioned the slow pull out problem, but one has a problem with a seemingly mystery ~1 second pause in motion after the pull out move. I just had a quick search, and using G32 seems to avoid any pull out problems.
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I'm going to focus on using the CSMIO/IP-A controller. I'm researching whether there is a modern drive/amplifier than will run my existing SEM motors.
I can't guarantee my drive cards are both good, and I'm looking at future parts availability. EZ PATH electrical components are virtually impossible to source.
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There are a few servo amps available for DC servo motors, however I'm having a complete mind blank as to the manufacturers!
Personally I'd say run what you have for now if it works, but plan for replacing later, unless you really need as much reliability as possible, in which case I'd look at swapping to AC servos.
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Thanks.
Just been looking at all the kit on the CS-lab website. All very tempting!
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I did a retro-fit on the machine at work, its just a foil printing press which has three foil feeds - I just treated it as XYZ and used a three channel pc card motion controller and wrote the front-end in visual basic, has a touch-screen and works perfectly, however the drive amps were extremely costly at about £500 each due to the motors - this was about 8 years ago. If i had known then what i know now, i would have fitted AC servos i think and a CSMIO as the PC card was about £1000 alone.
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Hi guys, I'm on the brink of ordering the following,
CSMIO/IP-A x 1
CSMIO-enc x 1
And
CSMIO-MPG.
My question being, if I had to MPG modules, could I move both X and Z simultaneously? Since I have two electronic hand wheels, consisting of heidenhain, 600PPR encoders with handles, to simulate using the manually, handy for quick operations without programming?
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Hi
can't answer your MPG q but when ordering you might want to add a breakout block for the MPG module as you don't get one with it and maybe one of the matching 24v distribution blocks as well ;)
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Not as far as I am aware regarding the MPG, the module has connections for only one MPG.
Regarding the breakout board, I just used an old parallel port cable for the MPG module as all the switches, MPG etc are all on the same panel so easy to route the cable and take the wires to the switches/MPG etc.
Hood
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Well I've done it chaps. Put in an order with CS-labs for the CSMIO IP/A, with threading and MPG modules. Spent last night rewiring the machines existing control to operate from mains single phase supply, leaving only the spindle motor requiring three phase, (from my phase converter) I managed to power up the ageing 386 PC based control after swapping out the power supply.
I was able to prove that one axis is fully operational and that the other has a fault. By swapping the servo amplifiers around I've proved the X axis servo amp has failed. It's giving a constant 100dc to the motor making it run away. I'm guessing failed thyristor
I've found a replacement in the guise of a MCS110-6/12 dc servo amp made by AXOR industries. I'm hoping for great things from it, so fingers crossed.
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Sounds good :)
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Very excited Dave. I can't wait to get started.
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I've just found this source of dc servo drives, British made.
http://www.trminternational.com/index.php/products/motors-a-drives/dc-servo-drives.html
They seem well priced, but I have a question.
My dc motors have a tacho signal fed back, but these drive don't use that signal, relying on the encoder signals going back to the controller.
Could I use this method with the CSMIO/IP-A to control my motor positions? I intend to feed encoders direct to it, but what are the consequences of not use the tacho signal?
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Tacho feedback can pretty much be classed as obsolete technology.
With modern DSP (Digital Signal Processing) tech, an encoder can be used to provide the same information but far quicker and more accurately.
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Can't find any documentation for the drives so not sure if there are encoder outputs on it as well.
On most modern drives they take encoder inputs and they also have encoder outputs so you can connect them to your control, you can usually multiply or divide the outputs to suit your control if required.
With the hobby end of the drive market there often is no option for encoder outputs, most probably because most of these drives are intended to be used with controls such as Mach which normally do not have encoder feedback (step/Dir controllers such as LPT, SmoothStepper etc etc)
If there are not encoder outs from the drive you should be able to just jumper across from the drives encoder inputs to the CSMIO encoder inputs and it should work fine.
Hood
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The documentation for the drives is listed in the bottom right corner of the page. It took me a while to find the links.
They're only amplifiers, so it's up to whatever controller you're using to take the encoder feedback and close the loop.
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Thanks see it now, also I misunderstood the question, was thinking that it had encoder feedback to the drives but they have no feedback at all, so very basic amps indeed.
Hood
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yes definately basic, but i wonder whether the CSMIO module will do all the necessary to compensate? my motor encoder feedback will be going straight to the CSMIO anyway as the existing aging servo amps dont handle it. i just wonder if the system will still need the tach signal?
if it doesnt this is a nice cheap replacement for the aging servo amps fitted.
on a plus note my delivery from CS Labs arived today, so im in the workshop now, scratching my head.
i was given a old desktop pc with XP, so thats in here now along with a wifi extender i picked today, allows me to work in the workshop and research info from here at the same time.
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Those amps use torque/current mode so do not really require feedback, theoretically they should work fine with the IP-A, how easy in practice it will be to tune the IP-A with them I have no idea. I have never used Torque mode on my machines, always just stuck with Velocity. Think mc said he tried Torque mode in his AC Servos with his kFlop controller but can't recall whether it was a success or not.
Hood
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I managed to get a better result with Velocity mode, however by the time I tried Torque mode, I was already getting good results with velocity mode.
In theory Torque mode should give better results, however everything has to be tuned well to achieve it or it won't work well, unlike velocity mode where you can usually get reasonable results even if things aren't tuned that well.
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knocking it on the head for the night. started identifying cables and wire numbers off the old scematic to patch accros to the new system. slowly slowly catch a monkey.
thamks for your replies
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Saw some motors and drives on eBay today, about £300 for a motor/drive. Motors are 0.6Kw 12000rpm max,(would need gearing)
Just thought I would mention in case you are thinking along AC Servo lines, not even sure if they would be suitable or not for the lathe..
Hood
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Also, just remembered, a friend has some Lenze motors and drives for sale, think they are 1Kw, only problem is the motors have a gear end shaft so it would need sleeved in some way.
Hood
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I could be interested if the price is right. Any other details available, so I could google a spec on them?
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Is it the Lenze ones you mean?
This is the ones I saw on eBay, they are just smaller versions of the drives/motors I have on the Chiron.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Berger-Lahr-CPD1702F10S1-AC-servo-driver-servomotor-0-6-Kw-10V-or-Mach3-/302007823337?hash=item465111abe9:g:RrsAAOSw9N1VvdVW
Hood
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The Lenze are
Drive, EVS9322-ES
Motor MDSKABS056
Hood
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Update:
Hope to post some pictures this week, haven't been able to off the iPad.
Got the old pc hardware and boards out of the cabinet, mounted DIN rail and fitted the new CS LABS gear in. 24v dc power supply sorted and bridged to all the modules.
Ran out of time to do any more, but was able to connect up the existing 1250PPR encoder and test feedback.
It's on a 1:1 ratio drive from the spindle with A,B,I +/- signals. Set the plugin to 5000 pulses and achieved correct positioning angle and rpm.
:-)
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Spent the evening formulating a plan for integrating existing buttons and switches on the lathe but am I missing something?
I expected to be able to nominate an input #5 eg door unlock command and link it to an output, say #5, but is this simplified approach possible or does there need to be VB script?
How do you define what OEM triggers do?
I have the module for the CS MPG, so that takes care of using those manual functions, but say I had a push button to turn coolant on. Does it need to be continually high to latch and output on, is there provision for seeing a momentary push signal.
I'm used to FANUC with PMC ladder programs. Does mach3 require VB programming for all the suggested above, in light of no sequence program.
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I expected to be able to nominate an input #5 eg door unlock command and link it to an output, say #5, but is this simplified approach possible or does there need to be VB script?
Not really sure what you are meaning here, can you explain further?
How do you define what OEM triggers do?
You can enter the port and pin number of the input against the OEM trigger in Ports and Pins/Inputs. You can then go to Config menu and System Hotkeys and enter the OEM code for the function you want in the box beside the oem trigger you have used.
I have the module for the CS MPG, so that takes care of using those manual functions, but say I had a push button to turn coolant on. Does it need to be continually high to latch and output on, is there provision for seeing a momentary push signal.
I'm used to FANUC with PMC ladder programs. Does mach3 require VB programming for all the suggested above, in light of no sequence program.
Momentary buttons are just needed for most things in Mach, for coolant you can set it up a few ways, one way is to go to ports and pins, spindle setup and enable coolant and enter the Input you will use against Flood, then in ports and pins Inputs page enter the port and pin number you have the switch connected to.
Lots of other ways to get things done, you can use the Inputs/OEM Triggers way, you can use Brains, you can use the MacroPump, the latter requires VB but for things such as buttons it is very basic and is the way I prefer to do things and I am crap at VB :)
The CSMIO controllers have an inbuilt modbus so it allows you to access all the I/O via Brains or VB.
Hood
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thanks hood I see the software is fairly extensive to say the least!!
would you mind working through an example with me?
lets say I use OEM trigger #1 for a panel mounted N/O push switch with lamp for Feed Hold.
How do I find the Hot key code being used for feed hold already?
or do I create my own code, say 'alt F' (2150) and then assign that code to feed hold command?
once there is and external switch activating feed hold, can an output be linked to it to illuminate the switch lamp?
sorry if this is all fairly elementary, but I racked my brains navigating the software, probably not realizing how it all interacts.
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heres a link to a list...
http://www.machsupport.com/Mach3Wiki/index.php?title=OEM_Buttons
feed hold is 1001
:)
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thanks hood I see the software is fairly extensive to say the least!!
would you mind working through an example with me?
lets say I use OEM trigger #1 for a panel mounted N/O push switch with lamp for Feed Hold.
How do I find the Hot key code being used for feed hold already?
or do I create my own code, say 'alt F' (2150) and then assign that code to feed hold command?
once there is and external switch activating feed hold, can an output be linked to it to illuminate the switch lamp?
sorry if this is all fairly elementary, but I racked my brains navigating the software, probably not realizing how it all interacts.
Hot Keys and OEM Codes are different things, Hot Keys are aissigned in the screenset and were basically a way to use a keyboard key as a shortcut to operate a button, for example feed hold or start or whatever. They were handy back in the days of people only having the option of the parallel port and thus limited available I/O.
I personally dislike using hotkeys as there is always the potential to press a keyboard key by mistake and the machine will start to do something. Previously I used HotKeys with a keyboard emulator to add buttons to my panels but as said these days are gone now as there are plenty of ways to get real digital I/O into Mach nowadays.
Ok OEM codes are the codes that are internally assigned in Mach for different buttons, LEDs, DROs etc. You can use them via VB Code, Brains or the OEM Triggers.
Dave has linked to the Wiki page of the OEMs, there is also a xls file pinned near the top of the forum that I made from the wiki, it allows you to have it on your computer for reference without requiring to visit the wiki.
Now your example, personally I would do it via the macropump or possibly a Brain, both would use the inbuilt modbus of the CSMIO controller.
So say for example your button is on Input 5 of the main IP-A and the output (for the LED) is again on the main IP-A and is output 5.
In the macropump you could have something like this
If GetInBit(90,5) Then ' Input on IP-A that switch is connected to
DoOemButton(1001) 'OEM Code for FeedHold (Pause in wiki)
End If
If GetOemLED (805) Then 'OEM code for Pause LED
SetOutBit(90,5) 'Turn on Output on IP-A that the LED is connected to
Else
ReSetOutBit(90,5) 'Turn Off the output on IP-A that the LED is connected to
End If
To use the macropump you first need to enable in General Config page. You can go to Operator menu then Edit VB Script. The Editor will open and you can type in your VB and then save it as macropump.m1s, saving it to the macro folder of the profile you are using.
The macropump loads with Mach so you need to restart Mach everytime you alter the macropump.
In a Brain you could do similar, it is a kind of simple ladder and works well, just do not make it too long as it will be a nightmare to read and edit later on as it doesnt size very well. You can only have one macropump per profile but you can have as many Brains as you wish and thus it is much better to have 20 small brains than one big one, mainly for the reason mentioned above.
I will attach a Brain doing the same as the macropump above in a wee while.
Hood
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Ok I am at home so unable to test this but I think this is the way you set up the CSMIO's modbus I/O in a Brain, see pic and also attached Brain.
If you save the Brain to the Brains folder in Mach3 folder you can then go to Operator menu and Brain Control, you should see it there, you can then click on it then tick to enable it then press Reload and it should now be working, you can also click on it in the list and click View Brain and you can watch to see if it is working as you press the button.
If the Brain is not in the list you can press Reload All Brains and it should appear.
When making a brain make sure you do not have any spaces in the name or it will likely cause issues.
To make a Brain you go from Operator Menu to Brain Editor, just click cancel at the popup screen and the Brain Editor will open, do what you want then Save As and enter a name for it and make sure it is saved to the Brains folder. You can then load it from the Brain Control option as mentioned previously.
Hood
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thank you for taking the time to show me how to go on. I confess I'm going to need to spend some time looking at the brains side of it. there doesn't seem to be enough information in the string to work at first glance, but that's me not understanding what I'm looking at!!
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pictures I hope
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3
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4
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5
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god that's hard work.
so machine has a manual Dorean indexer on, in generally good condition
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the existing control was nonfunctional, with support available minimal
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thank you for taking the time to show me how to go on. I confess I'm going to need to spend some time looking at the brains side of it. there doesn't seem to be enough information in the string to work at first glance, but that's me not understanding what I'm looking at!!
I've plenty of work for the next few evenings, wiring up the old to the new and tidying things up
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You can add 4 pics per post, just click the more attachments text for each pic you want to add.
I will do a quick vid and upload to youtube to let you see how the brain is working.
In the vid I will just emulate an input via my keyboard and set it up in the brain to do a feedhold if it is seen. I will then look at the feedhold LED in Mach and if it is seen then it will turn on an output, that output would work your panel LED.
Hood
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Ok here you go.
https://youtu.be/OgGy_G7Eadk
Hood
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Thank you Hood.
Your generosity with your time is priceless.
I'm away with work for a while now, so progress is hampered, but gives me opertunity to sketch out all my circuit modifications.
Do any of your own machines run 'conventional' controls or have you converted them all now?
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I have Mach on all my machines, the two that I bought that were still running, the big lathe and the Beaver mill had old controls. The one on the lathe only had LCD lines for X and Z, it was a GE1050 control. The Beaver was a Heidenhain 145 which could only MDI one axis at a time.
Here is the lathe I bought, you can see a pic or two of the GE control
Hood
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Sorry for falling off the face of the earth. Summer holidays and busy times at work have meant I've barely turned the key in the workshop door for months! Hope normal service will resume now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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New to the forum,but also recently acquired a romi ez path lathe. Would be very interested to hear how your conversion is progressing
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It was going really well until life got in the way. -work / family etc. I hope to complete on next 2 months. Recommend the CS labs gear for compatibility with existing hardware.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Had a look at my romi lathe today. Comes up with an error saying the emergency stop switch activated. Checked switches and cable in cable ladder at the back of the bed. All good. Will check the 24v supply,but think it might be a candidate for a retro fit. Never done anything like that before. Might need a bit of guidance. That Csmio set up looks pretty good. How much wiring is involved,or is it fairly plug and play? Any advice gratefully received
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Would you mind posting up some photos of your install so far? Had a look at what's in the Romi control box and it's making a lot more sense having looked at the wiring diagram and having had a mosey around the csmio ipa manual. What are your plans regarding the spindle? Planning on controlling the speed via vfd,or just sticking with the speeds available with the gearbox and the two sets of windings in the motor?